CW Dooku Vs CW Grievous

Originally posted by Darth Vious
That wasn't exactly what I was meaning. I was meaning the way in which the information was given (moving picture rather than printed word) was the more canon. I was simply meaning with the book, that less people are likely to read it.

Not if you have cybernetic implants in your brain that enhance your reactions and coordination... Although Grievous was not a droid, he did have droid-like reflexes.

As I said, it would appeal to the Count's aristocratic vanity to be able to beat Grievous' four sabers with his one.

It's hardly a state secret! I'm 28. How old are you? The reason I ask, is because it will determine my answer to your previous post which I did not answer.

So if more people read the parodys of Lord of the rings they would be accounted as more canon?

All droids cannot handle a lightsaber, Grievous has 4. He might be good, but where does it say that he is better with them. So yes, I agree that he is better in the CW, but I still don't think he can beat either Obi-Wan or Dooku....

How do you know this? Maybe he would punish Grievous for coming after him by frying his droid-ass with lightning....

You ask me this to determine how much real fighting experience I've had right?

Originally posted by kamikz
What the hell, the same goes for Dooku. He was defending, not attacking. If he wanted to he could have made short work of Grievous, that is pretty obvious... And how exactly would a real battle be different than this? Why would Grievous not use all of his skill if he was to be trained by Dooku?

Originally posted by kamikz
So if more people read the parodys of Lord of the rings they would be accounted as more canon?

Originally posted by kamikz
All droids cannot handle a lightsaber, Grievous has 4. He might be good, but where does it say that he is better with them.

Originally posted by kamikz
So yes, I agree that he is better in the CW, but I still don't think he can beat either Obi-Wan or Dooku....

Originally posted by kamikz
How do you know this? Maybe he would punish Grievous for coming after him by frying his droid-ass with lightning....

Originally posted by kamikz
You ask me this to determine how much real fighting experience I've had right?

Originally posted by Darth Vious
No, that wasn't what I meant. Just that a moving image is more definitive than a printed word as canon. It's, if not written somewhere about here, definitely an accepted concept that the movies (and cartoons) outweigh the novels as canon.

No, not all droids can handle a lightsaber. The point though, is that for Grievous' computer-enhanced brain, it makes no difference if he has one or four, as it would just be another task for his brain to deal with.

Okay, you agree that he is better in the CW. Do you think Obi-Wan could have stood up to him in that condition? Personally, I do not. To be honest, I don't think Dooku would either.

Again, because of his arrogance and vanity. Dooku would want to show that he was superior with a saber, not through his knowledge of the Force, because that would not be a contest (as Grievous cannot use the Force.)

Yes. The comment you made that I did not answer, suggested certain things about how duels are fought. As I said, I'm 28 (well, I will be 28 in 3 months) and have been studying martial arts and fencing since I was 8. That's twenty years that I've been studying them, and would be quite impossible for you to have more knowledge of fighting if I had been studying it longer than you'd been alive. But, until you say how old you are, I can't say that for certain, so I'll wait for you to answer, but that will be my answer.

Just because it moves it is more canon? A book is more precise, it shows thoughts, feelings, conditions, all sort of stuff. I don't see how it can be more cannon because it is a cartoon....

Sound logical, but proof?

Yes I belive Obi-Wan could have defeated him with a hard match and Dooku with quite ease.

Proof?

Yes you have more experience with martial arts, so you think that you having more fighting experience than me means that I am wrong or something? (Doesn't mean you have fought more real battles than me). Are you talking about when I said they run with the swords above their heads or what? I know you can do that but they have the force, they should be prepared, they should sense what he is going to do, they should parry it as they parry other lightsabers. They were clearly to scared to be focused.

to be honest i only trust the movies themselves to be cannon, nothing else, unless george lucas himself says it is, like in shatterpoint he wrote a prolouge and obviosly approved of its status in the movies.

Writing a prologue does not mean that Georgie puts it in the same level of canon as the movies and scripts...

Originally posted by kamikz
Just because it moves it is more canon? A book is more precise, it shows thoughts, feelings, conditions, all sort of stuff. I don't see how it can be more cannon because it is a cartoon....

Originally posted by kamikz
Sound logical, but proof?

Originally posted by kamikz
Yes I belive Obi-Wan could have defeated him with a hard match and Dooku with quite ease.

Originally posted by kamikz
Proof?

Originally posted by kamikz
Yes you have more experience with martial arts, so you think that you having more fighting experience than me means that I am wrong or something?

Originally posted by kamikz
So you think that because it isn't a traning, Grievous is going to have a bigger chance against Dooku? Wrong, he is going to have less chance. Tell me, how will he deflect lightning, how will he deflect crush/grip, how will he deflect Dooku's force control (he could clearly send him to the force even when toying with him). Now, how can he beat Dooku in a sword battle when Dooku has trained him in saber battle, how can he beat Dooku who easily disarmed him. What can Grievous possibly do better because he intends to hit him, Dooku will clearly do the same....

And you don't swing a saber and hope that you don't hit the one your sparring with, your still trying to go through his defences. You think that when Grievous used his unortodox fighting technique (where he stands on his hands then do a large sweep with his foot) is actually going gently with Dooku. Please....

Originally posted by kamikz
Are you talking about when I said they run with the swords above their heads or what? I know you can do that but they have the force, they should be prepared, they should sense what he is going to do, they should parry it as they parry other lightsabers. They were clearly to scared to be focused.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
to be honest i only trust the movies themselves to be cannon, nothing else, unless george lucas himself says it is, like in shatterpoint he wrote a prolouge and obviosly approved of its status in the movies.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
A book still requires the reader's interaction to 'work', where the cartoon just presents everything regardless of if the person is even giving it their full attention. Hardly the best explanation, but the best I can come up with at the moment.

I have no proof. Do you have proof that it was more of a challenge for Grievous to use four lightsabers?

Well, the novelization made it clear that Grievous overcame Obi-Wan's defence (and he was not in peak condition) If he still had his speed and jumping abilities (close to Ataru) I don't think Obi-Wan would have been able to defend against him as Grievous was much faster in CW to RotS. He didn't just slow down 'a bit' when Mace Force crushed him, he slowed down a lot

I can't provide a specific quote, but everything shown about Dooku showed how arrogant and what an elitist he was. That's just simple character identification, and doesn't need specifics to qualify it.

Well, to go to your original post, you said:

Taking our ages (which you have still not revealed) and experience into account, do you seriously think that you know more about fighting and martial arts than I do? Do you seriously think that I cannot tell the difference between sparring and actual fighting? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I am saying you're wrong if you think you know more about the subject than I do.

I was refering to that in so much as Anakin did the same thing to Dooku (and Mace and Palpatine did that to each other) so using that to point out a weakness on the part of the Jedi is a flawed one. Also, don't forget that Grievous' brain was partially artificial (his reaction and coordination centers certainly were) It's possible (not saying it is, just that it's a possibility) that the part of his brain that guided his movements was not 'readable' by the Jedi. Don't forget, they did not know the Clones were going to attack them, because they were only following orders (so there was no malice for the Jedi to detect) It's possible that Grievous' brain was unreadable for similar reasons...

So you cannot really back it up that it is more canon than LOE?

Well most of his battles he fought without them and instead used them as a more of a surprise weapon when he was in a saber lock with opponents. When Grievous had his four arms he could do some fancy moves yes, but when Grievous lost two of his arms he replied, "army or not, you must realize, you are doomed". That line would not have made any sense at all if he didn't imply that he could still beat Kenobi, even with the quick loss of his 2 arms...

How did he overcome his defence? He took both of his arms in less than 1-2 minutes. Even when no jedi knew he had been weakened they still said that Obi-Wan was the one who could beat him. In the novelization of the film, Mace Windu indicates that Obi-Wan Kenobi, with his absolute mastery of the defensive Soresu style of lightsaber combat, is the ideal agent to be sent to destroy Grievous. A barrage of lightsaber attacks from a non-force user like Grievous, even in close quarters, proved ineffective for the droid general. Despite Grievous' combat training mechanisms which serve to overcome an opponents patterns, Kenobi's perfect mastery of Soresu renders this skill obsolete since the simple function of Soresu is to deflect attacks of all sorts.
Windu also concludes that Grievous, for all of his power, lacks an appreciation for simplicity.
Obi pretty much knew his weakness.....

Even Dooku, the one who made Grievous into what he was in the CW, says that Grievous could not defeat Obi-Wan. This was indeed during the same time as the CW, so.....

And this has been said numerous times and I will say it again. The cartoons have a tendency of "overexaggerate" a persons ability. Since when could Anakin simply push away a block the size of the one Yoda lifted with struggeling in AOTC? Since when could Mace punch through durasteel and jump over 100m?

Thing is that Ki-Adi Mundi seemed to survive a hell of a long time against Grievous when he knew he was the only one left and Grievous had nothing to surprise him with anymore. (Plus 3 lightsabers). Ki-Adi was hardly in the top 10 of the order....

Good point, yes that could be it. But figuring that if they could not read his movements then many of the jedi would not last half as long as they did. I think it was fear that took over their minds and their emotions, but.......

Originally posted by kamikz
So you cannot really back it up that it is more canon than LOE?

Originally posted by kamikz
Well most of his battles he fought without them and instead used them as a more of a surprise weapon when he was in a saber lock with opponents. When Grievous had his four arms he could do some fancy moves yes, but when Grievous lost two of his arms he replied, "army or not, you must realize, you are doomed". That line would not have made any sense at all if he didn't imply that he could still beat Kenobi, even with the quick loss of his 2 arms...

Originally posted by kamikz

How did he overcome his defence?

Originally posted by kamikz
He took both of his arms in less than 1-2 minutes.

Originally posted by kamikz
Even when no jedi knew he had been weakened they still said that Obi-Wan was the one who could beat him. In the novelization of the film, Mace Windu indicates that Obi-Wan Kenobi, with his absolute mastery of the defensive Soresu style of lightsaber combat, is the ideal agent to be sent to destroy Grievous. A barrage of lightsaber attacks from a non-force user like Grievous, even in close quarters, proved ineffective for the droid general. Despite Grievous' combat training mechanisms which serve to overcome an opponents patterns, Kenobi's perfect mastery of Soresu renders this skill obsolete since the simple function of Soresu is to deflect attacks of all sorts.
Windu also concludes that Grievous, for all of his power, lacks an appreciation for simplicity.
Obi pretty much knew his weakness.....

Originally posted by kamikz

Even Dooku, the one who made Grievous into what he was in the CW, says that Grievous could not defeat Obi-Wan. This was indeed during the same time as the CW, so.....

Originally posted by kamikz
And this has been said numerous times and I will say it again. The cartoons have a tendency of "overexaggerate" a persons ability. Since when could Anakin simply push away a block the size of the one Yoda lifted with struggeling in AOTC? Since when could Mace punch through durasteel and jump over 100m?

Originally posted by kamikz
Thing is that Ki-Adi Mundi seemed to survive a hell of a long time against Grievous when he knew he was the only one left and Grievous had nothing to surprise him with anymore. (Plus 3 lightsabers).

Originally posted by kamikz
Ki-Adi was hardly in the top 10 of the order....

Originally posted by kamikz
Good point, yes that could be it. But figuring that if they could not read his movements then many of the jedi would not last half as long as they did. I think it was fear that took over their minds and their emotions, but.......

Only because it is something that has been debated and accepted here almost as an unwritten rule that movies (and by extension cartoons) are more canon than novels and graphic novels.
To reverse the arguement, can you back up that LOE is more canon than CW?

Because in LOE Yoda doesn't use the Force to throw 2 starships around like rag dolls. And Mace doesn't use a Force Push to throw back hundreds of Battle Droids.

In the novelization, it explains that he kept increasing the speed of the rotations of his sabers, so the amount of hits per second increased. When he got to a certain speed, it simply overcame Obi-Wan's ability to keep up with in order to block, leading onto the next point...

Ki-Adi, who faced General Grievous and had no knowledge of Mace's force crush, was the one who suggested they send Obi-Wan to face General Grievous.

The first hand was taken because rather than blocking the saber, Obi-Wan instead positioned his own so that Grievous arm would pass against it, effectively making him sever his own hand. If you look at Grievous' body language after the first hand severed (I admit, it's hard to read emotion in a being who's face is essentially a mask) it istotal "WTF!!!" surprize at what happened.

So how is that helping your cause? All it is now is that Obi-Wan is smart enough just to put his lightsaber where it needs to be and let Grievous do the rest.

Mace had to have suspected that his Force crush had some effect, and as for them sending Obi-Wan, I agree, his skills were the ones most suited to taking down Grievous.

Mace didn't suspect nothing. The fact is all that did was cause Grievous to start coughing. You have no proof that this weakened Grievous.

In a less canon version of the events of that time period, so I do not recognize that statement.

Mace Windu and Ki-Adi both said Obi-Wan was perfect to fight Grievous and even Dooku said that Grievous wouldn't be able to defeat Master Kenobi.

I disagree. I think that the cartoons were the perfect medium for showing the true extent of a Jedi's powers and abilities. It was able to manipulate the characters in a way that would have looked comical if it was done with live actors. Just because those abilities were not then displayed in the movie, it did not mean that the characters were unable to do them anymore. The events of the Clone Wars are canon events, therefore, the feats that made those events happen must also be canon for the events to have even taken place.

What? The CW makes all the characters overpowered. If Yoda can throw around 2 starships like rag dolls why is it he had trouble throwing 1 Senate Pod? The events happened but the way they happened are not canon.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
[b]Only because it is something that has been debated and accepted here almost as an unwritten rule that movies (and by extension cartoons) are more canon than novels and graphic novels.
To reverse the arguement, can you back up that LOE is more canon than CW?

Because in LOE Yoda doesn't use the Force to throw 2 starships around like rag dolls. And Mace doesn't use a Force Push to throw back hundreds of Battle Droids.

In the novelization, it explains that he kept increasing the speed of the rotations of his sabers, so the amount of hits per second increased. When he got to a certain speed, it simply overcame Obi-Wan's ability to keep up with in order to block, leading onto the next point...

Ki-Adi, who faced General Grievous and had no knowledge of Mace's force crush, was the one who suggested they send Obi-Wan to face General Grievous.

The first hand was taken because rather than blocking the saber, Obi-Wan instead positioned his own so that Grievous arm would pass against it, effectively making him sever his own hand. If you look at Grievous' body language after the first hand severed (I admit, it's hard to read emotion in a being who's face is essentially a mask) it istotal "WTF!!!" surprize at what happened.

So how is that helping your cause? All it is now is that Obi-Wan is smart enough just to put his lightsaber where it needs to be and let Grievous do the rest.

Mace had to have suspected that his Force crush had some effect, and as for them sending Obi-Wan, I agree, his skills were the ones most suited to taking down Grievous.

Mace didn't suspect nothing. The fact is all that did was cause Grievous to start coughing. You have no proof that this weakened Grievous.

In a less canon version of the events of that time period, so I do not recognize that statement.

Mace Windu and Ki-Adi both said Obi-Wan was perfect to fight Grievous and even Dooku said that Grievous wouldn't be able to defeat Master Kenobi.

I disagree. I think that the cartoons were the perfect medium for showing the true extent of a Jedi's powers and abilities. It was able to manipulate the characters in a way that would have looked comical if it was done with live actors. Just because those abilities were not then displayed in the movie, it did not mean that the characters were unable to do them anymore. The events of the Clone Wars are canon events, therefore, the feats that made those events happen must also be canon for the events to have even taken place.

What? The CW makes all the characters overpowered. If Yoda can throw around 2 starships like rag dolls why is it he had trouble throwing 1 Senate Pod? The events happened but the way they happened are not canon. [/B]

That is complete utter bullshit. Grievous stood at almost 7 feet tall in CW, after the incident when the pussy with the purple saber crushed his lungs, he stood hunched over at the level of Skywalker and Kenobi. He was indeed weakened. He went from dodging ship blasts to coughing up like a pot-head. They happened but not that way? and you say my "Dooku was going easy" debate is bullshit?

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Only because it is something that has been debated and accepted here almost as an unwritten rule that movies (and by extension cartoons) are more canon than novels and graphic novels.
To reverse the arguement, can you back up that LOE is more canon than CW?

I think that line was admittedly bragging on Grievous' part, but the points you've illustrated that he used them more as a surprize weapon. That does not mean however, that they did not also give him more of an advantage, because obviously four lightsabers is better than two if you have the capability to wield them (would be interesting to see Dex waving four lightsabers around....) )

In the novelization, it explains that he kept increasing the speed of the rotations of his sabers, so the amount of hits per second increased. When he got to a certain speed, it simply overcame Obi-Wan's ability to keep up with in order to block, leading onto the next point...

The first hand was taken because rather than blocking the saber, Obi-Wan instead positioned his own so that Grievous arm would pass against it, effectively making him sever his own hand. If you look at Grievous' body language after the first hand severed (I admit, it's hard to read emotion in a being who's face is essentially a mask) it istotal "WTF!!!" surprize at what happened.

Mace had to have suspected that his Force crush had some effect, and as for them sending Obi-Wan, I agree, his skills were the ones most suited to taking down Grievous.

In a less canon version of the events of that time period, so I do not recognize that statement.

I disagree. I think that the cartoons were the perfect medium for showing the true extent of a Jedi's powers and abilities. It was able to manipulate the characters in a way that would have looked comical if it was done with live actors. Just because those abilities were not then displayed in the movie, it did not mean that the characters were unable to do them anymore. The events of the Clone Wars are canon events, therefore, the feats that made those events happen must also be canon for the events to have even taken place.

Actually, there's no way of knowing how long Ki-Adi was fighting Grievous. The opening sequence where the clones are 'suiting up' and approaching the ship could just as likely have been happening when Grievous pounced on Sha'a Gi.

He was one of only three Jedi to actively defend himself from the clone's attack following Order 66. They were Ki-Adi, Zett Jukassa, and Master Yoda. The others were simply gunned down with no attempt of defence on the part of the Jedi. Untill CW and RotS, Ki-Adi was actually my second to worst character (worst being C-3PO) but those installments showed him to be a much more skilled warrior than I'd initially suspected.

I don't think fear would have overtake Aayla, Shaak Ti or Ki-Adi as it did Sha'a Gi, as they were too experienced for that. It could be that Grievous' actions were unreadable to them (for the reason I suggested) or, it could just be that they could read his movements, but he was just too fast for them to block (as was eventually the case with Obi-Wan)
[Edit for SPAG]

I thought it had been established that the movies were canon, not anything that is similar to a movie. Then games would be taken over novels and books too....

Meh I guess there is a possibility that he is better, but I still stand by my surprise state... 😛

Well that wasn't really what I saw, and Grievous did move his arms and his sabers fast, as fast as he did in the cartoon, the only difference is his body was not as fast. And Obi exploited his weakness, lack of simplicity. Thing is that Obi could probably do the same to that Grievous, and I don't think that Grievous expression has to mean anything. I think anyone would get a weird facial expression when someone cuts their arms off.....

Again, this is not established....

Since when has Yoda been able to toss starships around when he could barley lift a big tube in AOTC. And since when could Anakin toss those things around like rocks? Mace could not defeat an army like that, if he could he would have done so in the battle of Geonosis. It contradicts with what they are able to do in the movies, hugley exaggerating it. Saying that it would be silly to have actors doing it is the same as saying that Grievous didn't use 4 because they did not want to revile it.

Were there any reinforcements on that planet? And every episode seems to tell what happens during that time, so I don't think it's like that, but I don't know.....

So he could hear that the clone troopers did not follow him when he ran, and he could barley defend himself. Does this make him a good fighter? Hardly.....

So you agree that the others were taken by fear? And Shaak Ti kept on screaming "help me Ki-Adi" and stuff, and her expression when he took out the others were not exactly what I call relived.....

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Because in LOE Yoda doesn't use the Force to throw 2 starships around like rag dolls. And Mace doesn't use a Force Push to throw back hundreds of Battle Droids.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Ki-Adi, who faced General Grievous and had no knowledge of Mace's force crush, was the one who suggested they send Obi-Wan to face General Grievous.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
So how is that helping your cause? All it is now is that Obi-Wan is smart enough just to put his lightsaber where it needs to be and let Grievous do the rest.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Mace didn't suspect nothing. The fact is all that did was cause Grievous to start coughing. You have no proof that this weakened Grievous.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Mace Windu and Ki-Adi both said Obi-Wan was perfect to fight Grievous and even Dooku said that Grievous wouldn't be able to defeat Master Kenobi.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest

What? The CW makes all the characters overpowered. If Yoda can throw around 2 starships like rag dolls why is it he had trouble throwing 1 Senate Pod?

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
The events happened but the way they happened are not canon.

Originally posted by kamikz
I thought it had been established that the movies were canon, not anything that is similar to a movie. Then games would be taken over novels and books too....

Originally posted by kamikz
Meh I guess there is a possibility that he is better, but I still stand by my surprise state... 😛

Originally posted by kamikz
Well that wasn't really what I saw,

Originally posted by kamikz
the only difference is his body was not as fast.

Originally posted by kamikz
And Obi exploited his weakness, lack of simplicity.

Originally posted by kamikz
and I don't think that Grievous expression has to mean anything. I think anyone would get a weird facial expression when someone cuts their arms off.....

Originally posted by kamikz
Again, this is not established....

Originally posted by kamikz
Since when has Yoda been able to toss starships around when he could barley lift a big tube in AOTC. And since when could Anakin toss those things around like rocks? Mace could not defeat an army like that, if he could he would have done so in the battle of Geonosis. It contradicts with what they are able to do in the movies, hugley exaggerating it.

Originally posted by kamikz
Were there any reinforcements on that planet? And every episode seems to tell what happens during that time, so I don't think it's like that, but I don't know.....

Originally posted by kamikz
So he could hear that the clone troopers did not follow him when he ran, and he could barley defend himself. Does this make him a good fighter? Hardly.....

Originally posted by kamikz
So you agree that the others were taken by fear? And Shaak Ti kept on screaming "help me Ki-Adi" and stuff, and her expression when he took out the others were not exactly what I call relived.....

Originally posted by kamikz
and her expression when he took out the others were not exactly what I call relived.....

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Being beaten while being taught, and an all out fight are two different things. And as I said above, LOE is not as official canon as CW, because CW is a visual medium that tells the audience exactly what is going on. CW reduced LOE to the level of published fanfiction.

As above, it does not. If Grievous decided to split his arms and come at Dooku with four lightsabers, do you really think Dooku would be able to block them all? Dooku did not use Soresu, his blocking tactics are quite different to the ones Obi-Was used (which Grievous was still able to overcome by increasing his attack speed) so Grievous would be able to adapt to counter his Makashi precision.

1. Touche. You win that round.
2. In CW, he was using 4 arms, and using his feet, flipping around, interchanging weapons between hands and feet.

Originally posted by Council#13
1. Touche. You win that round.

Originally posted by Council#13
1. Touche. You win that round.
2. In CW, he was using 4 arms, and using his feet, flipping around, interchanging weapons between hands and feet.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
*Bows*

Indeed he was, and the speed with which he did those makes me suspect it would overwhelm Dooku's defences.

Qui? Oh well, Dooku just Force Pushed Grievous or something and won.

Originally posted by Council#13
Qui? Oh well, Dooku just Force Pushed Grievous or something and won.

Who said he had trouble doing it? He looked fairly comfortable doing so. Also, if there was any difficulty, perhaps that was because the ships were already descending, and he just altered their path to colide, but the senate pod was descending, and he had to stop it's motion and then reverse it.

No he pushed them aside and then chuncked them together with ease. Yoda had to dodge all but one of the Senate Pods Palpatine was throwing at him.

And Geonosis backs me up because there was about as many Battle Droids there as in CW where Mace whipped out all of them by himself without a lightsaber.

Now tell me why Yoda and Mace needed a droid army? Why does Mace even need a lightsaber when he's whipping out Super Battle Droids with his hands only?

Not only does Yoda manage to push two Landers into one another but also he manages to lift dozens, maybe hundreds, of Destroyer Droids and even pushes an AAT back into a Lander and has another one crash into it.

And yet Yoda dodge and avoided all but one Senate Pod. Not only that but Yoda and Mace Force Pushed hundreds of Battle Droids back and yet he didn't do any of these things when him and Obi-Wan went attacking the Jedi Temple.