Originally posted by jinzin
sabretooth healed from brain damage in the early 90's... just food for thought...normal humans can survived having all their internals turned to JELLY by a hulk punch? 🤨
give me case examples of that..I'd like to see them.. having your torso crushed and having your organs jellified are two completely different things.. but if you have proof.. bring it here.... 🤨
it's a huge difference sure.. but it's innacurate info all the same.. something the handbooks are notorious for having an abundance of.... and again, i'm not arguing for wolvie being immortal whatsoever.... but the possibility does exist...
His healing factor always was better, and now his healing factor increased as well.
Apparently Cap can, but no I meant his adamintium skelton protects his organs from frontal attacks.
You said torso crushed at first, that's why I said people can survive it. I didn't say having their organs turn to jelly they could survice.
Well from current standpoint were not going to change each other's opinions so we would basically be going around in circles.
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The other post directed at me I will just make comments as others commented on them. I never said Puck's heart exploded but his pulse rate stopped and not all concentration camps burnt them to ash only the extreme ones.
Originally posted by inamilist
there is something called a burden of proof, and it basically states that a lack of evidence to the contrary does not affirm something.So, basically, because it isnt stated that wolverine isnt immortal, or because he hasn't been killed permanently, does not mean he is immortal.
The burden of proof lies in the idea that if you make a claim you must back it up with evidence that supports your specific claim.
Applied to Wolverine:
really simple, is he or is he not immortal. it is plainly obvious that EVERYONE here agrees that he is not immortal. Immortal means cannot die (it has nothing to do with old age, that is called eternal youth. immortality means litterally not mortal).
The argument you are making is that he HAS died, then come back. Thus, not immortal.
I also don't see much problem with the regeneration from death thing. Without going into a deep debate about the nature of the self and the "soul", if wolverine's cells have mutated to all be like stem cells and replicate + assign new roles to new cells, it works. In fact, its one of the few mutations that real world science would actually be able to support.
When the cognitive functions of the brain stop, the individual cells of the body still live on until they are deprived of nutrience, so while Wolverine may be dead, his cells are not, and they can repair any damage that caused the death + restart cognitive function.
HOWEVER, all that I have typed above is speculation, and is in no way supported by comic book evidence. I am mearly wondering why people think it is outlandish for wolverine to have this ability...
PS: In reference to the regeneration feat in no 43, it would NOT be possible given the circumstances hypothesised above. No organic matter would have survived heat intense enough to melt flesh from the bones. Any organic material contained inside the bones would turn to carbon ash from heat transfer through the METAL.
I'm more inclined to say it was the artist + new writer colaborating to make the story pack a bit of an extra punch, physics and biology be damned. It works, and im personally glad they did it (this was the first issue of wolverine i have EVER read btw) as it did make for a cooler plot, though I still think regeneration from 0 organic matter for wolverine should be looked at with skeptiscism, as I don't believe the evidence for THAT has been shown (though regen from some/any organic seems to be verifiable)
wow great post.. like i said we can't prove a negative...
okay... if wolverine's not technically immortal considering the previous arguments.. then what is he? what can we define him as? just really fu**in hard to kill? lol.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And where is this stated?
it's in the weapon x novel.. the author of the book devoted a lot of time researching how the admantium bonding process could theoretically work at a scientific level... the admantium was poured over nano tech but wolverine's healing factor pushed the nanochips out of his bones as the admantium began the bonding process.. so technically the bones are pourous at a microscopic level... but since apocalypse gave wolverine his new skeleton I have no idea how that one works... in any case capt isn't wrong about the "new admantium" thing, it's stated in the book.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Even if there were pores in the adamantium, all it could help would be making the bone inside them vaporize faster...the point still resides that there would be no cells left anywhere. And Wolverine hardly can heal from nothing. PIS feat. Seriously.
I'd just like to bring up some food for thought... don't we see wolverine's red glowing eyes? as he's being burned? assuming he still had ANY flesh left at all in his eye sockets isn't it feasible that his brain and other tissue inside his skull might also still be there after the attack? AND we didn't see the lower half of his legs...
Originally posted by King_Mungi
His healing factor always was better, and now his healing factor increased as well.
at the time wolverine's had always been one to work faster... to say it's always been better is another assumption.. wolverine thought he had a better healing factor for YEARS until sabretooth got enhanced by apoc...
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Apparently Cap can, but no I meant his adamintium skelton protects his organs from frontal attacks.
when has cap survived having all his organs turned to jelly?
Originally posted by King_Mungi
You said torso crushed at first, that's why I said people can survive it. I didn't say having their organs turn to jelly they could survice.
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Well from current standpoint were not going to change each other's opinions so we would basically be going around in circles.
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Originally posted by King_MungiI think there's a vague reference about the incineration thing.. but I'll go check.. and it pucks heart didn't explode then it's not comparible...
The other post directed at me I will just make comments as others commented on them. I never said Puck's heart exploded but his pulse rate stopped and not all concentration camps burnt them to ash only the extreme ones.
Originally posted by jinzin
wow great post.. like i said we can't prove a negative...okay... if wolverine's not technically immortal considering the previous arguments.. then what is he? what can we define him as? just really fu**in hard to kill? lol.
thanks 🙂
id say its not "wolverine" that has the mutant power, but the cells of his body, each being able to act as stem cell and the ones that dictate what the stem cells will become.... (I forget the name...).
but ya, ridiculously tough to kill
Originally posted by jinzin
at the time wolverine's had always been one to work faster... to say it's always been better is another assumption.. wolverine thought he had a better healing factor for YEARS until sabretooth got enhanced by apoc...when has cap survived having all his organs turned to jelly?
yes but i corrected myself.. and you kept ignoring it.. okay well can a normal human survive having all their organs turned to jelly?
i noticed that too.... it seems to be a running gimmick with our debates...
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I think there's a vague reference about the incineration thing.. but I'll go check.. and it pucks heart didn't explode then it's not comparible...
Eh? back in the old days I'm postive they stated Sabertooth had the better healing factor. I'm postive even Wolverine made comment about that as well as his Sabs was stronger and faster as well.
I meant he has taken hits from class 100 characters and was fine.
Normally no (Cap exception seems to take blows that would kill a normal person), and truthfully I didn't see your correction so I was still going by the crushed torso comment.
It works, it keeps us busy no?
I wasn't comparing Puck with that feat, but that his heart stopped and technically "died", but survived due to his training not because he had a healing factor.
Originally posted by jinzin
it's in the weapon x novel.. the author of the book devoted a lot of time researching how the admantium bonding process could theoretically work at a scientific level... the admantium was poured over nano tech but wolverine's healing factor pushed the nanochips out of his bones as the admantium began the bonding process.. so technically the bones are pourous at a microscopic level... but since apocalypse gave wolverine his new skeleton I have no idea how that one works... in any case capt isn't wrong about the "new admantium" thing, it's stated in the book.
People keep referencing this novel. This isn't canon, correct?
Originally posted by jinzinSo basically you want him to be immortal but you cant say that he is. Immortal means can not die. Wolverine is a mutant, he can die. He has 'died' e.g. Deathstrike stabs him in the heart. He is medically dead, his cells are still viable for a period of time. His heart can repair itself in that time and start pumping blood again. Keep his heart stopped, his cells starved of oxygen and glucose and he'll die.
he's not being contradictory.. you're just interpreting this all wrong.. the facts are wolverine COULD be immortal.. there's evidence that suggests that he in all probability IS immortal, but we can't make the claim that wolverine IS immortal without shadow of a reasonable doubt.. thus wolverine COULD be immortal is all we can say....
And yes a negative can't be proven, because in order to prove Wolverine can die, the writers would have to kill him off. Which isn't going to happen. Furthermore he'd have to be killed off and not come back. Which in comics never happens.
Originally posted by capt it upIf nothing can get into the adamantium, why would things be able to get out of the adamantium? It's really besides the point because cells within the bone wouldn't have survived either.
actually yes that is stated lol. His adamtium when bonded to his skeleton changed two a whole new type of adamtium that allowed the bones to remain doing there normal functions such as cellure growth
Originally posted by capt it upAh so handbooks are only okay sometimes the rest of they time they're completely wrong.
stated in wolverine 2004 hand book.
Originally posted by inamilistIf you build it they will come.
and for the record, i dont think anyone is saying the nitro regen feat was not PIS
Originally posted by jinzinThe heat would have destroyed the neurons and glia of his brain. The brain doesn't like even small shifts in core temperature. The adamantium wouldn't protect their contents from heat.
I'd just like to bring up some food for thought... don't we see wolverine's red glowing eyes? as he's being burned? assuming he still had ANY flesh left at all in his eye sockets isn't it feasible that his brain and other tissue inside his skull might also still be there after the attack? AND we didn't see the lower half of his legs...
New author trying to get some buzz, relatively inept artist. Really all their is to it.
Originally posted by inamilist
its weirdthe anti-wolvie people are really trying WAY harder to stir something up about this feat than the pro-wolvies are.
it's not wierd at all.. the anti-wolvie people ALWAYS do this.. they try to nag and ***** at us until we finally go into kill mode, and then before we know it, we'll be defending the feat for one reason or another.. and thenn they call us fanboys.. it's a trap I say!
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So basically you want him to be immortal but you cant say that he is. Immortal means can not die. Wolverine is a mutant, he can die. He has 'died' e.g. Deathstrike stabs him in the heart. He is medically dead, his cells are still viable for a period of time. His heart can repair itself in that time and start pumping blood again. Keep his heart stopped, his cells starved of oxygen and glucose and he'll die.And yes a negative can't be proven, because in order to prove Wolverine can die, the writers would have to kill him off. Which isn't going to happen. Furthermore he'd have to be killed off and not come back. Which in comics never happens.
for someone who is supposed to be as smart as you are, you sure are jumping to some rather illogical conclusions.. who WANTS wolverine to be immortal here?
this isn't an argument that either capt or I have made.. so why insist that it is? for someone who chastised capt about being irrational last night, you certainly are not doing yourself justice here...
all we're saying.. all we've been trying to say over and over again.. is simply this: no we can't say wolverine IS immortal... but there is enough evidence to support the notion that he can't be killed (permanently at least), and marvel printed material as even alluded to the POSSIBILITY that he COULD BE "immortal" or whatever you want to call it.
and until 616 wolverine is killed by one of these feats that constently test his mortality.. then you just have to sit there and accept the fact that the possibility still stands...