Wolverine 43

Originally posted by H. S. 6
And do you have proof of this?

I hadn't thought novels based on comics were canon.

actually it is.. the author did intense research about the weapon x comics before going into the book writing process.. I own the comics and he mapped out things that I never would have really figured out on my own.. and I've read that comic set a dozen times.

Originally posted by jinzin
for someone who is supposed to be as smart as you are, you sure are jumping to some rather illogical conclusions.. who WANTS wolverine to be immortal here?

this isn't an argument that either capt or I have made.. so why insist that it is? for someone who chastised capt about being irrational last night, you certainly are not doing yourself justice here...

all we're saying.. all we've been trying to say over and over again.. is simply this: no we can't say wolverine IS immortal... but there is enough evidence to support the notion that he can't be killed (permanently at least), and marvel printed material as even alluded to the POSSIBILITY that he COULD BE "immortal" or whatever you want to call it.

and until 616 wolverine is killed by one of these feats that constently test his mortality.. then you just have to sit there and accept the fact that the possibility still stands...

Originally posted by jinzin
actually it is.. the author did intense research about the weapon x comics before going into the book writing process.. I own the comics and he mapped out things that I never would have really figured out on my own.. and I've read that comic set a dozen times.

But has Marvel confirmed that it's canon?

Because if not, then all these references to the novel go out the window.

well that was the story when the book was released so .. yeah...

So what I'm trying to say is, you've got a link or something showing Marvel's confirmation that Weapon X the novel is canon with the 616 comics?

Originally posted by jinzin
for someone who is supposed to be as smart as you are, you sure are jumping to some rather illogical conclusions.. who WANTS wolverine to be immortal here?

Originally posted by jinzin
this isn't an argument that either capt or I have made.. so why insist that it is? for someone who chastised capt about being irrational last night, you certainly are not doing yourself justice here...

all we're saying.. all we've been trying to say over and over again.. is simply this: no we can't say wolverine IS immortal... but there is enough evidence to support the notion that he can't be killed (permanently at least), and marvel printed material as even alluded to the POSSIBILITY that he COULD BE "immortal" or whatever you want to call it.

and until 616 wolverine is killed by one of these feats that constently test his mortality.. then you just have to sit there and accept the fact that the possibility still stands...

Originally posted by H. S. 6
So what I'm trying to say is, you've got a link or something showing Marvel's confirmation that Weapon X the novel is canon with the 616 comics?

where the hell am I going to find somethig like that?

look it was the focus of the book's entire selling point.. "weapon x: learn the true origins of the weapon x project blah blah blah" why would they call it the true origin story for weapon x if it wasn't?

no I don't have some site off hand that states weapon x= canon... that's ridiculous...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Having read the Can Wolverine die thread... I'm not entirely sure that no one does......
Jinzy.. I'm quite certain that you (and probably capt) realize the feat in Wolverine #43 is crap. However I'm also quite certain that capt (and possibly you?) will try to use this feat in the vs forums. 616 Wolverine won't ever be killed by one of these "feats" so long as he remains a popular character and you know it. And so long as it serves to increase his popularity the "feats that test his mortality" will continue to progress further into the realms of ridiculous. There are a lot of possibilities in comics, plausibilities are another thing altogether.

why would you be certain of that.. me nor cap have ever seriously used the "wolvie got nuked at ground zero" argument in the vs. forums.. why would this be any different?

I'll say this... no I don't support this feat, it IS crap from our current standpoint.. but another couple years like this for wolvie's healing factor and I just won't be able to refuse to acknowledge these facts anymore...

I honestly don't know why Wolverine should that all mighty. This was a bad feat we all agree on it, but a couple more will make turn my back on Wolvie and burn some comics. He became popular okay. That's one thing. Superman got popular too, but they never made him too strong for DC. This goes to Marvel. They gonna make Logan in the future too powerful and so different that even his fans will turn on him. I mean seriously he is just a guy with some claws, senses, skills, adamantium, experience and healing factor. I remember the classic days where his healing factor was 100% ookay. These are the comics between 1995-1998.

Originally posted by jinzin
why would you be certain of that.. me nor cap have ever seriously used the "wolvie got nuked at ground zero" argument in the vs. forums.. why would this be any different?

I'll say this... no I don't support this feat, it IS crap from our current standpoint.. but another couple years like this for wolvie's healing factor and I just won't be able to refuse to acknowledge these facts anymore...

Oh the Wolverine nuke healing factor was brought up several times in the vs forum lets pretend it hasn't been.

sure it has.. as a joke.. nothing more..

Originally posted by jinzin
why would you be certain of that.. me nor cap have ever seriously used the "wolvie got nuked at ground zero" argument in the vs. forums.. why would this be any different?

I really don't see how one can entertain the 'possibility' of immortality when there are several obvious conditions under which he would die, despite the fact that they may not ever be shown in comics. If I made "Wolverine vs Namor underwater", "Wolverine vs Superman in the sun" or "Wolverine vs GL in space" they'd rightly be considered spite threads, (although the latter would be spite threads regardless of locale).

Originally posted by jinzin
sure it has.. as a joke.. nothing more..

LOL oh ok at the time they were so serious and used consistenly, my sense of humor must have been turned off then, crazy me.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I don't recall. But you have oft stated that PIS shouldn't be excluded.

I really don't see how one can entertain the 'possibility' of immortality when there are several obvious conditions under which he [b]would die, despite the fact that they may not ever be shown in comics. If I made "Wolverine vs Namor underwater", "Wolverine vs Superman in the sun" or "Wolverine vs GL in space" they'd rightly be considered spite threads, (although the latter would be spite threads regardless of locale). [/B]

I stated that PIS shouldn't be excluded when i first arrived here.. since then I've reformed to another level of rational.. i still think PIS is nothing more than a copout argument in most cases, and in most cases PIS should NOT be excluded.. but there are also extremes that simply don't fit the bill.. this being one of said extremes....

Originally posted by jinzin
where the hell am I going to find somethig like that?

look it was the focus of the book's entire selling point.. "weapon x: learn the true origins of the weapon x project blah blah blah" why would they call it the true origin story for weapon x if it wasn't?

no I don't have some site off hand that states weapon x= canon... that's ridiculous...

Way to back yourself up. 🙄

it's not my fault you missed about 4 months of wolverine hype for the book...

You seem to be overly defensive regarding the book.

It's not my fault you can't back up your claims.

Oh, and just in case you're confused, hype for a book doesn't make it canon.

Originally posted by H. S. 6
You seem to be overly defensive regarding the book.

It's not my fault you can't back up your claims.

Oh, and just in case you're confused, hype for a book doesn't make it canon.

I'm not overly defensive about the book, I'm erked by the fact that EVERYTIME wolverine does or has anything where he doesn't look like an ass people automatically try to destroy the credibility of the source.. no matter what it is..

the facts are this.. marvel hyped weapon x as being the TRUE origin story behind the comics...

weapon x is HEAVILY detailed to directly correlate with the comics that were released, the book also ties up lose ends that the comics themselves left ambiguous...

and finally the kind of proof you're asking for doesn't even exist for comics much less a novel.. you're being ridiculous... you say i can't back up my claims.. i already did.. hell marvel did when they hyped the book, they recognized it as the true origin story.. if you don't WANT to believe that's fine, if you have a problem with the material in the book, whatever, but please don't insult my intelligence.. I'm not confused whatsoever.. it's obvious to me that you're the one who's having trouble grasping basic concepts here...

Originally posted by inamilist
excellent way to make people trying to have a serious conversation take you seriously

it also shows how grown up you are

because four pages of bickering without moderation was truly a show of maturity. but it was a strong start, the personal blow. well played.

Originally posted by inamilist
Yes, this particular instance is probably PIS given the new author, the fact that it is the middle of a HUGE company wide cross over, and isnt wolvie going to fight namor soon? maybe they are just giving him a little boost so it isnt as much of a blowout

I would also like you to find a powerset of any hero that accuratly follows the laws of science. Saying that a hero shouldn't be able to do something because it is impossible in the real world is redundant. Of course it cant be done in the real world, thats why we read it in comics.

and for the record, i dont think anyone is saying the nitro regen feat was not PIS

perhaps you're right. perhaps continuing the trend of physically impossible feats performed by a mere mutant with a purely physical mutation was just an attempt to "warm him up" to battle the monarch of the seven seas. but, then again, does that really do any in-comic justice to the feat? rationalizing it as a fan does not rationalize it within the story's own context.

many marvel characters have power sets that comply with the varied "laws of science." many do not, but also include a purely fantasy-based element [cosmic radiation, "gamma" radiation, psychic abilities, metabolizing energies, etc] to explain away inconsistencies. where any of these "magic" factors have been included in wolverine's powerset, i'd be very much in the dark to tell you. and, no, the x-gene does not count. if it did, it would decidedly express itself on one side or the other of this "real life" line, as opposed to on both.

i never said people didn't agree that the feat was pure bullshit.

Originally posted by inamilist
Your argument now is his powers arent achually his powers? In fact, I don't think there is a coherent version of WHAT wolverine's powers are or their limits, given the shadowy orgins of the character. The mystery about who or what he is has become an integral part of the character.

I also dont understand your reference to being offended. The powerset of a fictional character offends you? do you know what offended means? If this is serious you probably DO have issues in seperating fiction from reality as you have commited much to much of your psyche to involvement with a fictitious world and how you deem it must be run.

personal accusations that avoid the point hardly aid the debating process, friend. we could discuss the myriad possibilities of my psyche's interpretation of a ficticious world for hours on end, though it would hardly get us past the point that we're at now. this feat, and others like it, have defied all possible sciences [which are confirmed to exist within the marvel universe.] so, where's this trip down psychoanalytical avenue left us?

wolverine's powers have gone some thirty years without definition? that simply a baseless argument. on multiple occasions since its introduction, wolverine's healing factor has been likened to that of animals and humans, only on a much more hyperactive level. i dont know many living creatures who can simply create something from nothing; particularly in reference to their ability to heal themselves. if, in a backward interpretation, human healing factors operated on the same basis as wolverine's, would bodybuilders need to consume thousands of calories daily in order to increase their muscle mass?

while you may be correct, and every nuance of wolverine's genetic structure and the intricacies of his regenerative capabilities is not out in the open, we do have the cliff notes. and it would hardly be a reasonable "leap of logic" to throw them out the window in support to the vast minority of feats he's performed.

Originally posted by inamilist
I dont think marvel has ever attempted to explain in detail how wolverine works. It would lose them lots of money. Sure, they could, but the fans LIKE the mystery.

They dont explain it for LITERARY purposes. It adds effect and depth to a character. The fact that you are upset by this shows that you dont understand art at all.

the fact that you're excusing a lack of information as artistic license shows that you don't understand science and basic scientific reasoning at all. what makes your claim any more grounded or applicable than mine?

and you surely can't speak for all fans saying we enjoy the mystery of "how the **** can wolverine defy the laws of the universe?" i, and many others who've posted, seem to not enjoy it at all.

and, in terms of depth, that would require explanation of a complex aspect to wolverine. this mockery of both the sciences and marvel's own definitions of wolverine's powers is not deep, it's unexplained. the two can be easily confused.

Originally posted by inamilist
Out of only my deep concern for your mental well being, please dont read anything else about wolverine. You obviously have devoted too much of your energy into the character in such a negative way that it appears to be causing you discomfort or harm.

Please remember that if you dont like something, you dont have to participate in it. If wolverine so obviously hated by you, why not do ANYTHING ELSE but read about him?

thank you, for describing a basic right of human living to me. to think it took me this long to figure that out. we've got a smarmy one out tonight, folks.

my final comment was more a statement of dismissal than of hatred or true discomfort. for all intents and purposes, i find wolverine to be a rather interesting character whose potential has been largely abused in exchange for the almighty dollar. i dont think i found a single character more interesting than our little canuck here during the multiple issues in which glimpses of his past were revealed. team x, his ties to the yashida clan, the weapon x project, etc. however, as of late, my opinion of the character [the only opinion i feel truly safe in stating] is that he's lost much of his mystique in exchange for some flash and some face time. in the last many years, i've truly only enjoyed wolverine's appearances in the enemy of the state/agent of shield arcs, as well as in the most recent incarnation of astonishing x-men. it seems these two have captured the allure of the character i once adored, as opposed to the fancy free claws and teeth side of him that's become a mainstay.

also, as a comic reader who, like you, peruses the internet forums, i find the current "version" of wolverine to be the most controversial and debate-sparking among we fans. it seems as though we've found ourselves at a split [i believe the term "anti-wolvie" was used toward fans of my disposition,] which results in nothing more than a pissing match of whose interpretation is better, and in what context. it's a large waste of time and effort, and with the exception of including him within a larger picture of discussion, i plan to simply avoid the topic of wolverine for some time to come.

take pleasure in that if you will.