RotJ Luke vs Count Dooku.

Started by Lightsnake17 pages
Lightsnake Senior Member

Except you're wrong since canon sources state otherwise. You lose, goodbye

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except you're wrong since canon sources state otherwise. You lose, goodbye

Canon sources do not state otherwise, you moron. Nowhere does it say Dooku was out-duelled. The movie does not show him being out-duelled it shows him being overpowered. You're too stupid to see the difference, so you lose. Same goes for your opinon of Luke's use of a lightsaber. Why is it that you refuse to answer my questions when you know you will be proven wrong? Let's see if you can answer a really simple question:

Is Luke as good with a lightsaber as AotC Anakin? Yes or No.

Lightsnake Senior Member

ROTs novelization? Says he was outdueled. Chronology? Outdueled. Commentary and script? Outdueled, defeated.

Luke is better with a saber than AOTC Anakin. Easily. He is stated to have mastered the saber. He was taught in its use by Ben and Yoda. He has an instinctive grasp of it. End of story

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTs novelization? Says he was outdueled. Chronology? Outdueled. Commentary and script? Outdueled, defeated.

None of those sources are as valid as the movie, or if you insist, Lucas' opinion, and Lucas never said anywhere that Anakin outduelled Dooku. Outduelled and defeated do not mean the same thing.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke is better with a saber than AOTC Anakin. Easily.

Are you serious? That bit in AotC when Anakin chopped those insects from right next to Padme's head... that was precision swordsmanship. It's clear from RotJ how Luke swings a lightsaber like a bat and just hopes to hit something. If Luke had tried chopping those insects, Padme would have been decapitated. Anakin had ten years of lightsaber training in AotC, Luke had only even known about his heritage for what, four yours?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He was taught in its use by Ben and Yoda.

Obi-Wan gave Luke maybe a few hours tuition on how to sense the Force, absolutely nothing on lightsaber duelling, and Yoda never discussed lightsaber technique with him at all.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He has an instinctive grasp of it. End of story

His 'instincts' were little more than swinging it in the hope of hitting something! He had absolutely no finesse or style at all, all things that Dooku had. I'm not the only person who has said it, but plenty of others have too. Dooku would beat Luke, and he would beat him easily.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Yeah, and the movie says nothing one way or the other, everything except your opinion is going one way, get that through your ehad!
Fascinatin...also done with bluescreening, Hayden's better grasp of the stick, better CGI, etc...

Prove Yoda never discussed saber techniques with Luke. Commentaries said if Lucas had the time they'd have shown Yoda training Luke with a saber

Great, Mark Hamill couldn't fight! Neither could SLJ, did Mace suck? Unlike Hamill, Lee's done more sword fights than ANY ACTOR ALIVE.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, and the movie says nothing one way or the other,

Actually, the movie 'said' this:

That makes it clear that Anakin is physically overpowering Dooku, not outduelling him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fascinatin...also done with bluescreening, Hayden's better grasp of the stick, better CGI, etc...

It doesn't matter how it was filmed, the end result was that Anakin cut two insects while they were no more than a foot away from someone's head and did not cut their head off. RotJ makes it clear that all Luke can do is swing wildly and hope he hits something. That is not duelling skill.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Yoda never discussed saber techniques with Luke.

Prove that he did. You just said Obi-Wan trained Luke with a saber, and I proved you wrong.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Commentaries said if Lucas had the time they'd have shown Yoda training Luke with a saber

That doesn't mean shit, because regardless of if they had the time or not, they did not show Yoda training Luke with a lightsaber. The final movie is very clear on that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Great, Mark Hamill couldn't fight! Neither could SLJ, did Mace suck?

They both had fencing coaches. Lucas is very clear that the reason why the duels in the PT were better than the duels in the OT is because in the PT the duels were between an old man and a man who was partly machine, and a boy who had little training, but in the PT it was a case of Jedi in their prime. Lucas' own words made it clear that Luke did not have the same level of training as the PT Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unlike Hamill, Lee's done more sword fights than ANY ACTOR ALIVE.

Yes. And other than the extreme close ups, all Count Dooku's duels in RotS were performed by a stunt double, because Christopher Lee wasn't physically capable of doing what was required.

Lightsnake Senior Member

After analkin drives him back, destroys his defenses, sends him reeling...Dooku lost, sorry.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence...yep, Yoda'd send Luke against Vader and Palp without saber training...use your head. Oh, and we see Obi-wan train Luke with a saber in the movie. And yoda taught Luke saber techniques and according to lucas if they could have, they'd have showed that. and Luke's a Djem So user, meaning vicious swings are the norm. And does Mace Windu suck?

Great, and according to you, Lucas means nothing...we've seen machines and old men fight in the PT, they were great.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
After analkin drives him back, destroys his defenses, sends him reeling...Dooku lost, sorry.

I never denied that Dooku lost. I said that Anakin did not outduel him. If he had, then he would have cut Dooku while they were still dueling, not stood still and immobilized his arms.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence

Yes it is.
Face it. There is nothing in ESB that showed Yoda training Luke with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, and we see Obi-wan train Luke with a saber in the movie.

As I said, Obi-Wan was training Luke to sense the Force and using the saber as a tool to do that. He was not training Luke to duel with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And yoda taught Luke saber techniques

Prove it. It's no where in the movie.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and according to lucas if they could have, they'd have showed that.

But they didn't

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and Luke's a Djem So user, meaning vicious swings are the norm.

Yes. Vicious. Not uncontrolled.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And does Mace Windu suck?

They weren't anything spectacular in the movies, certainly not compared to some of the other characters. Mace's saber techniques were much better in CW than RotS.

That does nothing to change the fact that Lucas said why the PT duels were better, and why he said himself that Luke was not very experienced.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Great, and according to you, Lucas means nothing...

Yes, according to me. However, no one here is prepared to accept my opinion, so are you now agreeing with me that Lucas' words mean less than the films?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
we've seen machines and old men fight in the PT, they were great.

Not someone who was part man, part machine though, and that was what Lucas specified. As for your comparison of Dooku and Obi-Wan, Dooku had not spent 19 years living as a hermit in a desert. That is a harsh existence that would take a physical toll on anyone not acclimated to it from birth (which Obi-Wan was not)

Lightsnake Senior Member

We've seen Vader fight agiley. And fine. And Obi-wan was living fine with training with Qui-Gon

Yoda taught Luke saber fighting: Power of the Jedi, Insider, common sense.

See Dooku stumble when Anakin swings...that's outdueling him

Clone Wars is intentionally exagerrated. SLJ sucks with a sword, does Mace?

Darin Saine Restricted
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda'd send Luke against Vader and Palp without saber training...use your head.

Clearly you need a hearing aid LS. In ESB Yoda specifically told Luke not to confront Vader. Nor did he say Luke should do it in ROTJ.

And your crap about how Anakin beat Dooku and therefore is better than him with a saber? I can beat a master swordsman if I tried, but would I outfight him? Not a chance in hell!

Dooku said himself Anakin was as fine a Djem So practitioner as he had ever seen. Anakin beat Dooku through raw, physical force and a brief turn to the Dark side, not through superior swordsmanship.

Dooku would utterly and completely curbstomp ROTJ Luke.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Except Dooku was figjting his best against Anakin and was sent stumbling by anakin even before Ani grabbed him.

And yes, the guy who beat Vader, who was above the Anakin who totally walked over Dooku when he fought seriously would get destroyed by Dooku, give me a break...same Luke who slaughteres a small army of elite Ssi-Ruuvi

Escape81 Restricted

Fact: Two moderators came and told you, Vious, that George Lucas's commentaries, statements, and beliefs regarding "in-universe" ordeals and situations is absolute canon, such is LFL's policy.

Fact: Lucas's RotS commentary, the official screenplay, and the novelization - as well as Palpatine's quote in RotS both support the idea that Count Dooku was simply bested because Anakin was better.

Speaking of which. According to you, Yoda's quote in ESB is indisputable. Rofl. The same thing applies to Palpatine, then, which proves that Anakin > Dooku in power. 🙂

Fact: You have no proof but a couple of screenshots - opening as an interpretation of the movie. Essentially, only your opinion.

Fact: I have more than an opinion.

Fact: You assume that you're disproving the entire LFL policy. It's policy. Policy is policy. Concrete. Lucas > the movies.

I'll post this on the relevent thread, too. Y'know, the "Dooku's Skills" one, just so you read it. 🙂

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We've seen Vader fight agiley.

Not as agilely as he did before he had his arms and legs cut off.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Obi-wan was living fine with training with Qui-Gon

The time in the desert still took a toll on his health.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda taught Luke saber fighting: Power of the Jedi, Insider, common sense.

Not in the movie. Canon sources, please, not EU, magazines or assumptions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

See Dooku stumble when Anakin swings...that's outdueling him

No it's not, that's overpowering him through being stronger. No amount of saber technique can prevent the force of a stronger person's blow staggering you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Clone Wars is intentionally exagerrated.

On the contrary, CW showed Jedi abilities to their fullest. They would have looked stupid moving real actors that way, but in a cartoon, it's accepted.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
SLJ sucks with a sword, does Mace?

Totally irrelevent to the point that Lucas never intended Luke to have the kind of duelling skills he intended Dooku to have, and his comments in documentaries have proven as much.

Lightsnake Senior Member

We've seen Vader do much more agile feats. And you know something? Screw your "Movies only" Bull when you don't even stick to this. This is an EU forums and the damn rules state EU can be used.

Proof time in the desert effected Obi-wan? He looked damn healthy

Ani drives Dooku back, sends him stumbling for balance, THEN grabs and disarms him.

Gendy himself said they exagerrated Jedi abilities on CW commentaries, try again.

Except Lucas did intend Luke to be a swordsman. Get over it. It's why he's beating Vader

Escape81 Restricted
Clearly you need a hearing aid LS. In ESB Yoda specifically told Luke not to confront Vader. Nor did he say Luke should do it in ROTJ.

Not to be antagonistic, but I could've swore that Yoda said: "Vader, you must confront Vader, only then a Jedi will you be."

And your crap about how Anakin beat Dooku and therefore is better than him with a saber? I can beat a master swordsman if I tried, but would I outfight him? Not a chance in hell!

Palpatine in RotS, Lucas in the commentary, the official screenplay, and the novelization all state that he did beat Dooku through superior lightsaber ability.

Dooku said himself Anakin was as fine a Djem So practitioner as he had ever seen. Anakin beat Dooku through raw, physical force and a brief turn to the Dark side, not through superior swordsmanship.

Faulty logic. Djem So utilizes brute strength and capability. Meaning that Anakin's move was part of his lightsaber form. Meaning that, once again, he bested him through superior ability.

Dooku would utterly and completely curbstomp ROTJ Luke.

Nah. Beat him? Yeah, possibly. But I doubt he'd curbstomp him.

Darth Vious Restricted
Originally posted by Darin Saine
[QUOTE=Lightsnake]Yoda'd send Luke against Vader and Palp without saber training...use your head.

Clearly you need a hearing aid LS. In ESB Yoda specifically told Luke not to confront Vader. Nor did he say Luke should do it in ROTJ.

And your crap about how Anakin beat Dooku and therefore is better than him with a saber? I can beat a master swordsman if I tried, but would I outfight him? Not a chance in hell!

Dooku said himself Anakin was as fine a Djem So practitioner as he had ever seen. Anakin beat Dooku through raw, physical force and a brief turn to the Dark side, not through superior swordsmanship.

Dooku would utterly and completely curbstomp ROTJ Luke. [/QUOTE]
Precicely.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
Fact: Two moderators came and told you, Vious, that George Lucas's commentaries, statements, and beliefs regarding "in-universe" ordeals and situations is absolute canon, such is LFL's policy.

If two people told me that the Earth was flat, that wouldn't necessarily make it so. I've provided evidence (both from Star Wars and a non-related subject so the issue is purely creator's intention over finished product) but no one is accepting that evidence. That does not mean that my point is wrong.

Originally posted by Escape81

Fact: Lucas's RotS commentary, the official screenplay, and the novelization - as well as Palpatine's quote in RotS both support the idea that Count Dooku was simply bested because Anakin was better.

Speaking of which. According to you, Yoda's quote in ESB is indisputable. Rofl. The same thing applies to Palpatine, then, which proves that Anakin > Dooku in power. 🙂


Neither of which said he was a superiour swordsman, a point you just made clear to LS above.

Originally posted by Escape81
Fact: You have no proof but a couple of screenshots

That is the only proof from the movie that I can provide. I can watch the DVD over, and I can tell someone to watch the DVD over, but that doesn't mean they will see the part I mean. A screenshot is the best way (short of somehow linking the entire clip) of showing the specific action I refered to. And that you agree, is Anakin overpowering Dooku, not outduelling him.

Originally posted by Escape81
Fact: You assume that you're disproving the entire LFL policy. It's policy. Policy is policy. Concrete. Lucas > the movies.

I am disproving the policy. I have disproved the policy. Policies can be changed.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Where've you disproved LFL's big canon policy exactly? The one they've had for years? The policy>Your opinion, get over it.

Escape81 Restricted
If two people told me that the Earth was flat, that wouldn't necessarily make it so. I've provided evidence (both from Star Wars and a non-related subject so the issue is purely creator's intention over finished product) but no one is accepting that evidence. That does not mean that my point is wrong.

Big deal. One of Lucas's ideas were cut from the movie. Perhaps he was the one who ultimately oversaw the change? So what? Lucas is still the canon source.

Neither of which said he was a superiour swordsman, a point you just made clear to LS above.

"Soon I shall have a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful."

Doesn't mention potential. Doesn't mention physical strength. According to Palpatine, Anakin has already become more powerful than Dooku. 🙂

That is the only proof from the movie that I can provide. I can watch the DVD over, and I can tell someone to watch the DVD over, but that doesn't mean they will see the part I mean. A screenshot is the best way (short of somehow linking the entire clip) of showing the specific action I refered to. And that you agree, is Anakin overpowering Dooku, not outduelling him.

They weren't fencing. They were fighting to the death. If they were just dueling - then Dooku would never have used the Force against Obi-Wan Kenobi. Trumped there. Dooku used something other than his lightsaber to put Kenobi out of the fight. That move is easily as legitimate as Anakin's.

Trumped again.

I am disproving the policy. I have disproved the policy. Policies can be changed.

No. You have not.

Generic Hero KGB

And Anakin has little to do with RotJ Luke.