RotJ Luke vs Count Dooku. · Star Wars Versus Forum

Lightsnake Senior Member

Fascinating! Why don't you try to read and see who the message was directed at and realize that I was talking about ROTJ Luke.
Kids these days

Darin Saine Restricted

Fascinating! You've still ignored my point about where in the OT Luke resisted telekinises or Force lightning. Dumbasses these days.

Lightsnake Senior Member

But...Lucas's comments aren't canon, right, Vious? His interpretations don't matter and other canon sources have called Luke a master able to defeat a skilled and experienced Sith Lord and even deflect Palpatine's lightning for an instant.

And yes, we see Obi-wan struggling for breath like dooku...don't recall Vader outmuscling him, either. Let's take a page from Vious's book now...other sources and the movie show differently.

And I'd love this quote, because Lucas's also said it shows how far Luke's come and become a true Jedi and warrior

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Darin Saine
Fascinating! You've still ignored my point about where in the OT Luke resisted telekinises or Force lightning. Dumbasses these days.

Reissted TK in Empire from Imperial drones and Vader's attempt to grip him in the escape from Mimban. Resisted Palpatine's lightning for an instant according to the ROTJ novelization.
You were saying?

Darin Saine Restricted

Alright, I can see the telekinises, but an instant against lightning isn't going to save his ass if Dooku decides to deep fry him.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Against PALPATINE'S lightning? An instant is quite the feat, especially with Palp by ROTJ. And Dooku's lightning is not only nowhere near as strong, Luke's got his saber on him

Darin Saine Restricted

Oh right, so of course Luke would be able to duplicate Mace's Vaapad long enough to save his ass against anyone's lightning.

DE Luke Senior Member

I doesn't take a genius to deflect Force lightning with a saber,smartass.Remember Obi-Wan in AOTC?He did it without even trying with his own saber.

Rampant ox Senior Member

LMAO!!!!! How can anyone possibly think that the almighty Count would lose to ROTJ Luke?!?!?! Dooku is leagues above Luke. Yes Luke will eventually become more powerful, but in ROTJ he doesnt show anything special in terms of saber skills or force abilities. Dooku however has a vast list of accomplishments including:
-holding his own in a duel against Yoda (who everyone thinks is god!!)
-can shoot and reflect force lightning with his hand
-wtf pwned AOTC Kenobi and Skywalker
-wtf pwned ROTS Kenobi while fighting Skywalker
-can easily beat General Greivous

The list goes on. I forgot to mention a very important point - Dooku is a master of Makashi. This is bred for saber duelling. Lukes clumsy swings will be no effort at all for The Count to dodge/block. The with a simple flick of his lightsaber, Dooku will kill Luke. I understand that I can be a massive fanboy at times, but im not blowing things out of proportion this time. Dooku wtf pwns Luke with ease.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Ummm, no. Vader was far more skilled than Dooku by that point and Luke's been able to match him...three times?

And Luke's a master of Djem So, which means Dooku is ****ed.

And you forget something, Oxy boy:
D: Dooku was wtfpwned by ROTS Anakin whose level Luke is on at least

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But...Lucas's comments aren't canon, right, Vious?

I'm not saying that Lucas' comments aren't canon, clearly they are, but, the movies are the higher level of canon, as they show the final result of the movie compared to his original intentions when writing it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
other canon sources have called Luke a master

Luke was not called a Master in any of the original movies. The novelizations might say he mastered the use of something, but they were written when the term applied to having learned a skill. You have (I assume) mastered riding a bicycle. That doesn't mean you're a Master of The Bike, which someone like Matt Hoffman is. The English language has moved on in the thirty years since the movies came out. If you were to transport someone from the 60s to Present day LA, there would be any number of expressions that they would not understand, or thought had a different meaning.
Ever seen 51st State? Where Robbie Carlyle offers Sam a cigarette by saying 'Eff Aye Gee' (censor won't allow the written word)? In the UK, that is a commonly used term for cigarettes, it is not just a way of calling someone a homosexual, like it is in America. Do you see the point I'm trying to illustrate? The phrase 'had mastered' just meant Luke had learned to do something. It didn't make him a Master of that weapon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
even deflect Palpatine's lightning for an instant.

Where in the movie of RotJ did Luke do that? Nowhere. He just fell to the floor and made a sound like he'd soiled himself. (probably had too)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Let's take a page from Vious's book now...other sources and the movie show differently.

If you want to take a page from my book, you arrogant little shit, let's do it properly and compare relevent levels of canon with relevent levels of canon. The movies are the highest. They outweigh novelisations.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And yes, we see Obi-wan struggling for breath like dooku

In AotC, Dooku was not struggling for breath against Obi-Wan or Anakin, both of whom he had outduelled (by injuring them with his lightsaber)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
don't recall Vader outmuscling him, either.

Indeed, Vader didn't outmuscle Obi-Wan, nor did he out-duel him. The fact is Pbi-Wan stopped fighting. He stopped blocking or defending himself. He wanted Vader to strike him down so he could become one with the Force and continue to instruct and advise Luke. This is clear by the look he gives to Luke prior to raising the hilt of his lightsaber to his head and closing his eyes (clearly meditating)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And I'd love this quote, because Lucas's also said it shows how far Luke's come and become a true Jedi and warrior

And what quote is that? The only one I've mentioned is the one where Lucas said that untill the PT, no one had seen a duel between Jedi in their full flower, just an old man, another who was part machine, and a half-trained boy.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ummm, no. Vader was far more skilled than Dooku by that point and Luke's been able to match him...three times?
And Luke's a master of Djem So, which means Dooku is ****ed.
And you forget something, Oxy boy:
D: Dooku was wtfpwned by ROTS Anakin whose level Luke is on at least

Oh dear. Once more, you forget. The first time Luke duelled Vader in the movie, he got his hand cut off. Let's enjoy that look on his face again as his hand goes sailing into the shaft... Theeere it goes....

The second time Luke fought Vader, Vader did not want to kill Luke. (Vader did not want to kill Luke in ESB either, he was very clear about that with his instructions about the carbonite freezing)
That's two examples of movie evidence to one severely ridiculed EU novel.

Next. In RotJ, Luke was not a Master of Djem So, he had just mastered the basics of it. You can't deny how wildly he is swinging his saber in the final duel. He hits the pipes more than Vader's blade. He is completely blinded by rage, and has lost any attempt of controlling what he does. Dooku could deflect such wild swings with ease, most likely taking Luke's arm off in the process. Dooku had no trouble at all in taking Anakin's arm in AotC, and Anakin was by that point, a much more skilled saber duellist than Luke, not only due to his incredible Force potential, but also his decade of formal training under Obi-Wan and others like Cin Drallig. Luke had (on screen) maybe five minutes of general handling of a lightsaber from Obi-Wan and nothing in the way of duelling training from him, and none on screen from Yoda either. To point out RotS Anakin is just ludicrous, as Luke has nowhere near that level of training, or power. Face it, RotJ Luke would stand no chance against Dooku in a duel, and he clearly didn't even know how to ground Force lightning on his lightsaber, or he would not have thrown it away when he renounced Palpatine.
[Edit to fix link]

Lightsnake Senior Member

First time Luke duels Vader: Vader's arm is removed
Second time: Luke loses, after a good fight
Third time: Oh, yes, Vader;s on the ground beaten

Blah blah, blah, Vious...noticing how the novelizations all call you wrong? And here's a fun fact: Luke knew fighting Palpatine would do nothing but give into the Dark Side. Yoda even realized that actively fighting Palpatine only made him stronger.

And nope, Luke was stated to have instinctively mastered the saber. Canon. youc annot argue with it. shut up.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
First time Luke duels Vader: Vader's arm is removed

That duel took part in an EU BOOK that people barely recognize! It is useless as evidence!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Second time: Luke loses, after a good fight

Luke lost because Vader was a) better than Luke and b) Did not want to kill Luke! He was very clear that Luke had to survive the carbonite freezing, and that he was no good to him dead! Those are lines from the movie! The movie outweighs the novelizations of it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Third time: Oh, yes, Vader;s on the ground beaten

Once more: Vader did not want to kill Luke

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Blah blah, blah, Vious...noticing how the novelizations all call you wrong?

I'll blah blah blah you into the middle of next week, you ignorant little shit! The novelizations do not superceed the movies. Do you not comprehend that? Do you not understand what that means? I am quoting facts from the movies. The moviesoutweigh anything in the movies. You. Are. Wrong. Accept it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda even realized that actively fighting Palpatine only made him stronger.

Where in the movie of RotS did Yoda realize that? What was the look on Palpatine's face before the shockwave blasted him and Yoda apart? Was he:
a) Confident
b) Calm
c) Concerned

Lightsnake Senior Member

It's used in the Chronology, therefore it goes. This is an EU forum, get over it.

Vader was willing to fight to his best against Luke.

Great, where to the novelizations circumvent the movies in their writings? They don't. They give clarity on some issues. And your opinion won't stop them. Blah, blah, blah, you whiny elitist...are we getting angry? Does the little egotist need to insult to get his point across? Awww, whine whine whine, Vious.

He realizes it in the novelization with approval and review from Lucasfilm and thus it is EU and thus C or G-canon and thus permissible in this argument.

QED, moron

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's used in the Chronology, therefore it goes.

Since when does the Chronology superced the movies for accuracy?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is an EU forum, get over it.

You need to get over that even in an EU forum, EU does not surpass canon movies for accuracy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vader was willing to fight to his best against Luke.

But he was not willing to kill him. ESB was clear that he needed Luke alive.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Great, where to the novelizations circumvent the movies in their writings? They don't. They give clarity on some issues.

They might clarify, but they still do not overrule the movie as the most accurate version of the story. The movies are the most accurate canon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And your opinion won't stop them.

It is not my opinion that the movies are the highest canon, it is a fact

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Blah, blah, blah, you whiny elitist...are we getting angry? Does the little egotist need to insult to get his point across? Awww, whine whine whine, Vious.

I don't need to insult to get my point across, I just enjoy doing it. You're the one who's refusing to accept that you are wrong, and that the movies supercede the EU evidence you're throwing out. You refused to accept that you were wrong about Luke's artificial hand, but you were. You are wrong about this too. It frustrates me that I am writing explanations that you are ignoring either because you can't understand them, or just won't accept that you are wrong.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

He realizes it in the novelization with approval and review from Lucasfilm and thus it is EU and thus C or G-canon and thus permissible in this argument.

What part of this do yu not understand? Novelizations do not overrule the movies It might be permissible as evidence in a debate, but evidence taken from the movies overrules it as more valid.

Legion_of_Maul Cool Joe.

the point is who do you think is better ROTS dooku's lightning or ROTJ sids lightning, BTW sids has had a whole six episodes to improve his lightning and dooku has had like two or one. if luke can survive sids lightning storm then do you think luke can survive a barely learned dooku storm?

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
the point is who do you think is better ROTS dooku's lightning or ROTJ sids lightning, BTW sids has had a whole six episodes to improve his lightning and dooku has had like two or one. if luke can survive sids lightning storm then do you think luke can survive a barely learned dooku storm?

As I said in the other thread. Luke only survived Palpatine's attack because Anakin intervened and threw him down the shaft. Had that not happened, Luke would not have survived. He did not have a lightsaber to ground the Force lightning on, nor would he have had the skill to absorb or reflect it by hand, so that does nothing to change the fact that Dooku would WTFpwn Luke in a matter of seconds. Probably even quicker than he did Obi-Wan in AotC.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Except Luke's a master by then, sorry. And Dooku's not nearly as strong as Vader whom Luke was able to equal on three occasions with two wins and one loss.

Your only defense: Only teh movies are canon! Sorry, but the RULES IN THIS FORUM are that EU goes, thus overriding your opinion completely...but wait...the egotist thinks his opinion overrides Lucas's as we've seen on sevral occasions

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Luke's a master by then, sorry.

No he wasn't!!! The movie was clear about that! Luke was never a Jedi Master in any of the movies!.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorry, but the RULES IN THIS FORUM are that EU goes,

Yes, EU goes, but where in the RULES OF THIS FORUM does it say that EU OVERRIDES the movies as canon? IT DOES NOT SAY IT ANYWHERE!!!!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
thus overriding your opinion completely...

The only opinion being overriden here, is yours. Also, if anyone's an egoist here, it's you. You won't accept the canon movie facts that contradict the EU, thus proving your fanboy worship of Luke to be wrong.