Phoenix Force vs a Multiversal Power......Phoenix get's Crushed!

Originally posted by Mr Master
hey leon.

I'm saying this ...nicely... please answer me this..

If Abraxas manifested from another Eternity/Infinity outside 616...NOT 616.

Why do you persist in saying the problem originated in 616?
Unless your only talking about Galactus.

Fantastic Four Annual 2001...is when Abraxas first appeared...Outside 616...He even blasted a decapitated head of Galactus across Universes in order for that head to reach 616.

So Galactus died in 616...but Abraxas manifested Outside 616....Universes away.

I'm simply interested in how you see it now.

Oh and the only reason the Tower's location was first in 616...is because that's the only Tower that existed as a gateway to the doors of the Multiverse once the Interfaces were Aligned.

that's what Phoenix was used for...at the moment the Interfaces were Aligned, Phoenix was able to simultaneously create that same Tower in every universe VIA the Alignment. This then lead to a permanent connection between universes VIA the Tower which is the gateway.

616 is the prime location for everything though...because it's our Universe "supposedly" "the Mainstream Marvel universe".

But if what happens in 616 happens everywhere...what's the purpose behind those other universes if they don't have an existence of their own?

Respectfully awaiting your reply.

hey mm,

i realize -- FULLY -- realize abraxas manifested in some other universe. however, he was allowed to manifest as a direct result of 616 g's death. had 616 not died, he never would have shown up. hence my point about 616 being the true focal point of everything. what was happening in parts of the multiverse were symptoms of what took place in 616. if 616 could be repaired/reset to the point where g never died, the problem would have been solved. i rather like the idea of a MERGED 616 being wiped out by the UN to rectify the situation.

and i truly do see your point about the tower, i even understand why you see it that way. but, like uni and gs, it seems to me the pf WAS projected through the multiverse. i don't think you're denying that. you seem to be saying that it did so as a result of the matrix rather than the feat having been done in and of itself. you also claimed (a point of speculation i'm afraid . . ) that any reality warper could have done the same thing. there's a couple problems with that theory though:

(1) necrom was the SORCERER SUPREME of his universe. doesn't get much bigger or better than him in terms of reality warping and it seemed HE couldn't do it on his own.

(2) he actually had feron work for 10 yrs to try and reach the pf so that feron could use it to help him.

if a sorcerer supreme thinks that highly of the pf, AND if he couldn't do the task himself, it speaks at least to the fact that it was no 'simple' thing to project the tower. 😬

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So now your claiming that the Phoenix Force is the source of power of the abstracts? Like I said, you're just grasping at straws and interpreting the marvel cosmos as if you see fit when no such thing cosmos like yours exist. Again where on panel does it say the fact that she help spark/renew an old universe mean she powered everything in it including the abstracts?

Down play what? Your exagerating you favorite character and shoving it in debates that she actually created the multiverse and that because she's the spark therefore she that makes the powers of the abstracts really hers. You lied to other posters and even convinced them that the abstracts where really bowing to Jean/PF.

i'm gonna hazard a guess and say you're not undrstanding what he's getting at here, wwk. sometimes essays are NOT the best way to get a point across . . . 😬 one day gs will figure that out. 😛

for as long as i've listened to him, everything gs is saying is based on a simple supposition: the big bang IS the pf. the 2 are synonymous. if you buy into that, then it follows that INDIRECTLY, the pf IS the source of the abstracts and ALL life in the universe. i'm curious -- how do you answer the scan that shows the stars winking out as galactus tries to drain the pf from rachel and death's statement that the universe would become a void? clearly there are MANY scans that connect the pf to creation and life and even the big bang.

the many examples you've shown of OTHER entities creating the big bang can be answered in 2 ways:

(1) the entity creating the universe actually unknowingly summoned forth the pf to initiate the creation of said universe -- the pf manifesting as the big bang that was initiated by the entity.

(2) the pf was not required or summoned because the universe is an 'unnatural' one, one that falls 'outside' the natural cycle. in this case, whoever DID create the universe WOULD ultimately be responsible for the creation of the abstracts -- would in effect be the SOURCE of the abstracts power.

both of course are purest speculation, but either can be seen to fit imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
too much fun to leave alone . . . 😄

i'm not sure what your above comment is supposed to prove though. once again, i have no idea why there is any relevence regarding where the first galactus was killed by abraxas. it doesn't matter that abraxas went around some parts of the multiverse and killed galactuses. the problem originated in 616 and 616 is what needed fixing.

Fix what from 616? The problem originated from 616? You mean 616 Galactus dying right? Galactus 616 was brought back by Valeria and Franklin. Shouldn't this have fixed the problem? Yet it seemed it didn't. Abraxas had to be removed from the multiverse.

true, universes WERE merging . . . but they were awfully similar to 616. ironic that in the pf/tower scan (now that i can finally see it . . .), it says 616 is the PRIME universe . . . as has been shown, it is also unique in that it had the first galactus. seems that events in 616 really DO impact other universes . . .

Prime universe means what? Being the first or the main does not impact the other universes. Galactus 616 died and became a star. The other Galactuses were killed and Abraxas and one's skull was sent to 616 Earth.

those feats are just a little different from destroying and recreating the entire multiverse though. i asked before -- does that include unmaking and remaking lt? clearly the hotu would have been included in the effect, as well as all the universes that did not NEED remaking. just doesn't make sense.

The UN ended and recreated everything so Abraxas never existed. Does it involve the HOTU? I don't know because the affect was to rid Abraxas. If it tried to do so against the HOTU then I'd say no. The Ultimate Nullifier basically nullified Abraxas' existence. The other universes that need not remaking? The affect was to destroy and bring back everything but without Abraxas. It's as if Abraxas never touched any of those universes at all. If there was any universe that wasn't touched, why would it matter? It'd be as they were, except those that were affected by Abraxas would be as if Abraxas never affected them at all.

compared to what you claim the UN did, those other feats are less than nothing. if you're right, it is clearly the greatest display of power ever in marvel -- more inclusive apparently that even what thanos did with the hotu -- which would also have been remade . . . right?

Destroy and recreate the HOTU? The HOTU and the Multiverse are two different things. Even if the HOTU was targeted for Nullification instead of Abraxas and the Multiverse, I don't think it would affect the HOTU. Nullifying the multiverse is a powerful feat but it would not be able to nullify the LT. Thanos absorbed LT. That was just pure owning by the HOTU. Death and Warlock surving has more to do with Thanos than the HOTU.

fair enough and believe it or not i respect yours and masters interpretation, while at the saem time wholly disagreeing with it. that scan where reed is dying jus doesn't add up in your favor . . . 🙁 you really believe abraxas was killing reed in that scan and simultaneously killing the other reeds as well? i just can't see that . . .

Thanks and I respect yours as well. I do see what your saying about Reed but this conflicts with 616 Galactus' death. Both died and yet different outcomes to their counter parts.

which brings me to this: with an inspirational nod to illadelph, i've tweaked my own interpretation of events very slightly. maybe it will be enough for you to buy it?

i still say there is no way the whole multiverse was destroyed and remade. no chance, imo, too big a feat. however, it is clear that the 'infected' (for lack of a better term) universes (not ALL universes were infected though) were merging with 616. now, in keeping with my 616 remaking theory, how about this: when 616 was remade, the MERGED universes were ALL reset back to their 'norm'. in that way, the UN wasn't being 'selective' in its repairs but it DID affect only the merging universes, AND the multiverse was not remade. repairing 616 'unmerged' and fixed the merging/infected universes, which has the added bonuses of NOT having to remake the whole multiverse AND not affecting the universes that were fine already.

to me it sounds like the most plausible scenario and i am quite satisfied with it as an explanation. 🙂 [/B]

Eh, it works. 😄

I'll have to dig up those issues to come up with my own.

Originally posted by leonidas
hey mm,

i realize -- FULLY -- realize abraxas manifested in some other universe. however, he was allowed to manifest as a direct result of 616 g's death. had 616 not died, he never would have shown up.

Woh...is this speculation or fact?

The series never mentioned that...and I read all 5 issues thoroughly.
Unless you read this elsewhere...let me know.

Originally posted by leonidas
hence my point about 616 being the true focal point of everything. what was happening in parts of the multiverse were symptoms of what took place in 616. if 616 could be repaired/reset to the point where g never died, the problem would have been solved. i rather like the idea of a MERGED 616 being wiped out by the UN to rectify the situation.

Actually I think it was symptons of the Multiverse folding in on itself...remember that's what Nova said.

On the second point:
I just want to understand your view point completely...
You believe that every other universe is susceptible to what happens in 616?
If so...my question before was...Then what is the point of every other universe?
I myself never heard that..never read that...never seen that anywhere...and logic tells me that theory can not be.
According to that theory the Multiverse is just a copy of 616 Multi times over.

Originally posted by leonidas
it seems to me the pf WAS projected through the multiverse. i don't think you're denying that. you seem to be saying that it did so as a result of the matrix rather than the feat having been done in and of itself.

Absolutely... Phoenix did project or create a Tower in every universe VIA the Interface Alignment though...the Matrix itself is just an Energy source that is created when the Interface Alignment takes place...And I did give her credit on the feat...just not ALL the credit...as you know that wouldn't be true.

Originally posted by leonidas
you also claimed (a point of speculation i'm afraid . . ) that any reality warper could have done the same thing. there's a couple problems with that theory though:

(1) necrom was the SORCERER SUPREME of his universe. doesn't get much bigger or better than him in terms of reality warping and it seemed HE couldn't do it on his own.

That actually doesn't mean much...Doctor Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme of Earth but his power is nothing in comparison with a current Cosmic Cube...in terms of warping reality that is...and Kubik or Shaper of Worlds are considered small time reality warpers. A pocket dimension at best...That's what I mean by small time.

Originally posted by leonidas
(2) he actually had feron work for 10 yrs to try and reach the pf so that feron could use it to help him.

That was gs that confused you...I corrected him on that one.
Feron was trying to contact the Phoenix for reasons of his own, during that decade.
Necron... found out about Phoenix after Feron contacted her... and then decided to use Feron to call the Phoenix to accomplish his scheme.

Originally posted by leonidas
if a sorcerer supreme thinks that highly of the pf, AND if he couldn't do the task himself, it speaks at least to the fact that it was no 'simple' thing to project the tower.

I don't doubt it he thought highly of the PF...but let's not forget this is an Excalibur comic book...not to sound bias but they do cater to the idea of Phoenix being more than she is.

In any case regardless...the bottom line is with out the Interfaces being Aligned...Phoenix would NOT have been able to that...atleast not then.

But as you know...today you may be powerful enough to destroy a building...tomorrow some "bio writer" comes along and claims you are "god" *cough* PF, no feats presenting such on-panel and we have to except it...because... it's the "official marvel universe handbook" LOL.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm gonna hazard a guess and say you're not undrstanding what he's getting at here, wwk. sometimes essays are NOT the best way to get a point across . . . 😬 one day gs will figure that out. 😛

for as long as i've listened to him, everything gs is saying is based on a simple supposition: the big bang IS the pf. the 2 are synonymous. if you buy into that, then it follows that INDIRECTLY, the pf IS the source of the abstracts and ALL life in the universe. i'm curious -- how do you answer the scan that shows the stars winking out as galactus tries to drain the pf from rachel and death's statement that the universe would become a void?

Which he then passes it as Big Bang = creator of the Multiverse, > LT, and responsible for the creation of the cosmics. He's always pushed that from the post I've read.

Galactus began consuming the Force's powers and the stars began dying. She represented "life yet born" and so did the stars. She's not the creator of life or reality as G.S. claimed. If she represented all that is life and the universe then wouldn't reality and life actually weaken and start dying? Yet it was stars that faded, not present life.

There times when the PF was hurt and the neither the universe nor it's life suffered in any way.

clearly there are MANY scans that connect the pf to creation and life and even the big bang.

Which big bang? The very first big bang of the 616 universe or the big bangs after 616 died and was reborn again? The thing to take into account is every big bang usually ends up being the big bang that brings forth the current 616 universe and not the previous 616 that Galan came from. And even then is anyone sure that was the very first 616 universe?

the many examples you've shown of OTHER entities creating the big bang can be answered in 2 ways:

(1) the entity creating the universe actually unknowingly summoned forth the pf to initiate the creation of said universe -- the pf manifesting as the big bang that was initiated by the entity.

Then who created the PF? Who created the concepts of death, life, energy, space, time, oblivion, chaos, order, and such? She obviously have not always existed because she even remembered her birth. Every bio has shown that she came from the big bang or the void between states of being. Nor has anything stated that she herself created the concepts of the universe/multiverse.
http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixforce18cl.jpg

No where does it state that she creates the MU or the multiverse. We know that she's born from the universe and also in the void between states. After all she is a child of the stars or child of the universe.

Here's my take on the PF.

- She and the abstracts were was born in the VERY FIRST BIG BANG that created the 616 universe. Each being had a role to play. And when the very first 616 universe died, the PF saved the "potentials," ignited a new big bang where these potentials take their places in the universe. Everytime the universe dies PF ensures that the cycle continues.

She is rebirthed "in the void between states" of old and new universe, but is a child of the universe and remembers her birth because she did come from the very first universe along with the other concepts. TOAA created the MU along with the very first universe and concepts that make up the universe.

(2)the pf was not required or summoned because the universe is an 'unnatural' one, one that falls 'outside' the natural cycle. in this case, whoever DID create the universe WOULD ultimately be responsible for the creation of the abstracts -- would in effect be the SOURCE of the abstracts power.

both of course are purest speculation, but either can be seen to fit imo. [/B]

I also see nature cycles and unnatural cycles. But I doubt the PF was responsible for the very first big bang. She's been stated as being born from the big bang, a "child of the universe" (the very first universe).

At the end of the day the evidence is there stated for all to see plain as day. There are a few facts explicitly outlined in the scenes involving the tower.

a) The dimensional interfaces aligned only periodically at which time they would form the energy matrix which served as a doorway between realities.

b) The alignments temporary nature as outlined (the interfaces were aligned only for a short period of time and said alignments occurred infrequently) meant that as stated the resultant energy matrix could never be harnessed.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18610531219.jpg&s=f10

c) The tower located in 616 was connected to the dimensional interface of 616.

d) Necrom still longed for the matrices power and Ferons communion with the Phoenix was to play an integral part in Necroms plan to gain said power.

e) When the next alignment occurred and the doorways between realities was opened
Feron had the Phoenix Force project the towers essence through said doorway so
that a tower existed on every reality of the multiverse.

f) With an energy matrix now created as per his plans, Necrom made his play to gain
control of it. He was resisted by Feron and Merlyn leapt into the matrix.

g) After decades (well at least until the end of young Ferons life) Merlyn managed
to gain control of this energy matrix.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/5913134015.jpg&s=x402

With all of that in mind, the Phoenixes actions saw that this energy matrix, this gateway between worlds was made a permanent fixture. It was outlined previously that the matrix couldn’t be harnessed under the natural course the alignments took. Necrom himself the mentor and most powerful of the group could not do so and yet you would try and have us believe that young (at the time) Merlyn was the one to render the alignment permanent?

The Phoenixes feat was to create (using the essence of the original) a tower for every reality of the multiverse simultaneously as outlined. An action that was likened to a pin being threaded through creation. The fact that it was through a dimensional doorway is irrelevant as the scale, range and simultaneous nature of the application of power is still multiversal. There is a difference between could not do and did not do. So all that talk of Phoenix not being able to have done the feat is similarly irrelevant as not only is it just an opinion but what was actually accomplished was multiversal regardless.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Which he then passes it as Big Bang = creator of the Multiverse, > LT, and responsible for the creation of the cosmics. He's always pushed that from the post I've read.

Theres just no arguing with on panel evidence. Creation is outlined as the Phoenixes work, by Death:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18512320669.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18512434275.jpg&s=f10

The Big Bang and the resultant universe aren’t the sum total of the Phoenix. As ive shown through scans and quotes the Phoenix is not only the initiator of the creation cycle, the Big Bang manifest, but she also exists simultaneously beyond space and time. Therefore if it is outlined that Phoenix is reborn into creation as the Big Bang whilst still being separate from said event then of course that means she is the creator of whatever reality results from that manifestation.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Galactus began consuming the Force's powers and the stars began dying. She represented "life yet born" and so did the stars. She's not the creator of life or reality as G.S. claimed. If she represented all that is life and the universe then wouldn't reality and life actually weaken and start dying? Yet it was stars that faded, not present life.

There times when the PF was hurt and the neither the universe nor it's life suffered in any way.

A number of incorrect statements in this paragraph and a few opinion/suppositions. Galactus never began consuming the Forces powers, Galactus was exorcising the Force from Rachel, removing the Phoenixes ties to the physical plane, because he feared its manifestation within Rachel was a threat to the universe. As a result of his actions the stars started fading:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7509355229.jpg&s=x11

The Phoenixes absence from reality would result in “ultimate extinction” for the universe. There would be left a void without even the potential for life. She is quite clearly marked out as the energies of creation, that which sustains a reality

Phoenix being the energies of creation is stated in many sources:

Here Phoenix is marked out as the energies behind the stars, whose energies themselves go on to make life other life possible. Without stars you wouldn’t have life on planets for example. So it all relates back to Phoenix. Here also the Phoenix Force is likened to an unseen energy source who manifests into reality for the purposes of helping along evolution. These evolutionary ties are something which set precedence for titles like X-men Forever:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/12205244920.jpg&s=x402

Ultimate X-men:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13416024680.jpg&s=f5

New X-men

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18612273839.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209090372.jpg&s=f5

Endsong

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18612140988.jpg&s=f10

The Phoenix initiates the cycle by manifesting into the void as the Big Bang. Its power sustains the cycle and its avatars help the cycle along by tending to matters of evolution and anything within their jurisdiction which could potentially impede said cycle.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209533321.jpg&s=f5

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Which big bang? The very first big bang of the 616 universe or the big bangs after 616 died and was reborn again? The thing to take into account is every big bang usually ends up being the big bang that brings forth the current 616 universe and not the previous 616 that Galan came from. And even then is anyone sure that was the very first 616 universe?

Then who created the PF? Who created the concepts of death, life, energy, space, time, oblivion, chaos, order, and such? She obviously have not always existed because she even remembered her birth. Every bio has shown that she came from the big bang or the void between states of being. Nor has anything stated that she herself created the concepts of the universe/multiverse.

The previous multiverse, was destroyed by the M’Kraan Crystal as outlined in the surprisingly canon X-men Adventures (please ask for scans if you haven’t seen anything from said title, the previous existence is referred to in LTs, Phoenixes, Galactuses and Dwellers bios.)

Heres a scan that portrays this process:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=4/10208401517.jpg&s=x10

The birth youre talking about the Phoenix remembering was its rebirth, in the Big Bang event. Not its initial conception. Phoenix manifested as the energies of said event. The crystal after all is an access point to the white hot room.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixforce18cl.jpg

No where does it state that she creates the MU or the multiverse. We know that she's born from the universe and also in the void between states. After all she is a child of the stars or child of the universe.

There are many on panel statements and depictions which give Phoenix responsibility for creating reality, portrayals actually referring to it as her work as I have shown. The handbooks are a guideline to continuity, they do not dictate it. That is the very reason why there is a forum made by the handbook creators dedicated to fans posting queries and disagreements pertaining to featured entries.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Here's my take on the PF.

- She and the abstracts were born in the VERY FIRST BIG BANG that created the 616 universe. Each being had a role to play. And when the very first 616 universe died, the PF saved the "potentials," ignited a new big bang where these potentials take their places in the universe. Everytime the universe dies PF ensures that the cycle continues.

She is rebirthed "in the void between states" of old and new universe, but is a child of the universe and remembers her birth because she did come from the very first universe along with the other concepts. TOAA created the MU along with the very first universe and concepts that make up the universe.

I also see nature cycles and unnatural cycles. But I doubt the PF was responsible for the very first big bang. She's been stated as being born from the big bang, a "child of the universe" (the very first universe).

That actually isn’t a bad take on things, however it doesn’t address the Phoenix Consciousness of the White Hot Room. The very force which directs these Phoenix manifestations at the universal level as New X-men showed readers. This interpretation by Grant Morrison was been taken on by Greg Pak for Endsong and as stated in his recent interviews is the way Phoenix continuity will continue to be told via his other upcoming Phoenix titles. The universal level, the Big Bang isn’t the be all and end all of Phoenix. It exists as stated several times in different titles simultaneously beyond time and space in a place we’ve been told in recent years is the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force has been given responsibility for manifesting as the Big Bang in multiple realities.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
What's your point? It just proves that none of them had the power to even stop an IG wielder. Where are you getting that it proves Warlock's was weaker.

You're actually going to argue that this means Warlock's attack was weaker than Nebula or Thanos'. That Celestial would've last how long if LT not intervened? Beings above that Celestial were getting blast out of the court.

Because Warlock's outburst was an act of rage. Eternity even said that "ultimate power is in the hands of one who can't even control his own temper." Warlock was angry that he was being judged after saving everyone's butt. He wasn't trying to destroy them. He was just lashing out in anger. Why would he want to destroy the beings he just saved?

If you have a better explanation as to why the Celestial was still standing, I would love to hear it.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Possibly the LT? He only raised his hand the that attack stop dead. It is possible the results vary except that Warlock didn't want the trial to continue. His intentions of stopping the trial were clear as he stated as much, "HOW DARE YOU SEEK TO JUDGE ME." Then attacks the court stating that HE/WARLOCK/I SHALL [B]NOT TOLERATE SUCH AN EFFRONTERY."

Unless you seriously believe Warlock was going to stop him and let the trial continue after those words and actions? [/B]

Warlock's attack was an act of rage. Once the LT stopped his outburst, he was more surprised than mad. Why would he continue to lash out if he was no longer as angry as he was?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Again, Warlock didn't even know all the cosmics. Yet he told them their combined might was NOTHING COMPARED TO THE FORCE THANOS WIELDS. This is before Warlock got ahold of the IG, he was able to gauge cosmics power. With the IG, he knew things ahead of time. How is LT any different from the rest of the cosmics he doesn't know?

True, he said this before he acquired the IG, but he knew the IG's power because he was in the Soul Gem when Thanos acquired it. He was also informed of Thanos' power from the SS when Thanos absorbed him and Drax into the Soul Gem. But when the gathering took place, Warlock was not expecting either Eternity or the LT to be there, and when he told them their combined might was nothing compared to the IG, Eternity and the LT had left already.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I never said it automatically equates him being more powerful. The Tribunal stopped an IG attack and restored order. He shut down and powered up and shut down the Gauntlet a second time.

Shutting down the IG after it was dispersed is not a show of superior power. If you want to get technical, the LT's ruling has never truly been tested with all the gems, so we don't know for sure.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The IG has reversed LT's attack/ruling or hurt LT when? Give me at least one instance where the IG affected the Tribunal in any way? If you don't have that, they how can you say the IG even an equal to the Tribunal. LT shut Warlock's attack down just by raising his hand.

Granted, the LT reversed an outburst by the IG. But when it came time to battle Warlock, he wasn't sure if he could win.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Never happened. Eternity was about to attack him (angry that he has no say in who gets to guard the gems) and Warlock snaps his finger removing Eternity from the court.

No, it happened exactly the way I described it. Go back 2 more panels, and Warlock tell Eternity to not even think of interfering with his process. Eternity gets mad and tell him "I WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS EFFRONTERY!". His energy charges, but he never attacks. Warlock tells Eternity that he is bored with him. Eternity tells him the same thing. In this same scene before Warlock tells him "Begone", Eternity is already blinking away.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Eternity, later during Warlock Chronocles, showed up on a planet and argues over the new gem wielder as well. He even knew who Warlock was going to give his gems to and objects to Thanos being the new guarding the Reality Gem. Warlock again snaps his finger and Eternity was gone.

I've seen this scene years ago and can't find my copy of it right now. I don't remember the scene well enough to comment on it right now.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
This is where I said I'll agree that he couldn't shut it down right away. The IG has yet to show it could do a thing to the Tribunal. Not a thing at all.

And what has the LT done to a fully-functioning IG besides cancel a single outburst? He hasn't defeated it in battle. He hasn't hurt the wielder of it. He hasn't performed a feat that it couldn't.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Thing being would you consider Thanos a skyfather or on Odin's level when Thanos couldn't even hurt Odin at all? Great showing of durability for Thanos but it doesn't mean he's Odin's peer. He's below that. The IG did nothing to LT and even had it's attack stopped dead and it's weilder saying, "HOW?" If that attack was so weak, Warlock wouldn't have been astonnished and shut his trap so, as LT stated, "Eternity, present your case."

Yes. It proved that Thanos couldn't do a thing to Odin. LT raised his hand and killed an IG attack that was owning everybody except him. And Warlock shut up so the trial could begin. I've yet to see the IG's power abused like this.

That's my point. We got to see Thanos attack Odin back and saw that he didn't hurt Odin. We didn't see that in the IG situation. We only saw Warlock unleash his outburst and the LT cancel. No counter attack by the LT, so we can't tell if he would have been able to hurt Warlock.

Warlock was surprised because he thought that the LT's power would be on par with Eternity's, therefore would not be able to stand up to the IG. He was obviously wrong and that's why he was surprised.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The energy came from the IG, not LT. I already addressed this.

So have I. The pic before the one you posted showed energy come from both the LT and the IG. Even Mr. Master agreed with this.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And the IG has showed the it is on the LT's level when?

Never.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The many times it hasn't?

Never happened. The only thing that the LT did was cancel an outburst. That's it. NEVER again did he prove superior to a fully-functional IG. Please find the "many times" the IG hasn't been able to do something the LT has.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It's the Infinity Gauntlet. How is an omidirectional blast weaker than a focused attack? The space gem allows you to be anywhere along with the reality which allows you bend and do it as you will. How focus need one be when you wield an Infinity Gauntlet that allows complete control over time, space, reality, and power?

Apparently somewhat. That's the whole reason why it took Nebula awhile before she was able to take down the cosmics. It stated that the cosmics sensed she was not fully adjusted to its power and decided to attack together instead of separately.

And an attack can be as powerful or weak as the user wishes. Warlock's omnidirectional attack blew the abstracts away, but they were still in one piece. Thanos with a direct attack shattered Kronos.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Easily? It would take him some more effort I would still say easy. Just raising his hand his killed the IG's attack.

Enough effort to destroy reality according the the LT, and even then he wasn't sure he could take the IG from Warlock.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He was surprised that LT could affect the Gauntlet's power, not because he misgadged his attack level. Otherwise he would have increased the level and continued his assault to prevent the trial from beginning.

Yes, he was surprised. He didn't know how powerful the LT was. He thought all the cosmics were beneath the IG. When the LT showed him otherwise, he was shocked and decided not to continue the assault. Once the trial was over, he was ready to challenge the LT again until the LT guilted him out of it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The dimensional interfaces aligned only periodically at which time they would form the energy matrix which served as a doorway between realities.

True.

I already made this more than clear...especially when you attempted to claim it was Phoenix that created the Energy Matrix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix created an energy matrix that flows around the multiverse

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The alignments temporary nature as outlined (the interfaces were aligned only for a short period of time and said alignments occurred infrequently) meant that as stated the resultant energy matrix could never be harnessed.

Ok this is still the truth.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The tower located in 616 was connected to the dimensional interface of 616.

Still posting truth...I'm proud of ya.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Necrom still longed for the matrices power and Ferons communion with the Phoenix was to play an integral part in Necroms plan to gain said power.

My man gs is on a truth roll...yiaaahoooo!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
When the next alignment occurred and the doorways between realities was opened
Feron had the Phoenix Force project the towers essence through said doorway so
that a tower existed on every reality of the multiverse.

True...but let's not forget this would be impossible for her had it not been for the Interface Alignment.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With an energy matrix now created as per his plans, Necrom made his play to gain control of it.

Oh oh...we're beginning to track off course.

The Energy Matrix was not NOW created...it always EXISTED...just not indefinitely...When Phoenix created the Towers in every universe VIA the Interface Alignment...then it became a permanent Matrix...but no way can I allow you to say...it was NOW created...that makes it seem as though Phoenix created the Matrix...and that's false.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
1. He was resisted by Feron and Merlyn leapt into the matrix.

2. After decades (well at least until the end of young Ferons life) Merlyn managed to gain control of this energy matrix.

#1 is True.

#2 Is False...it never gives a timetable of how long it took Merlyn to gain control of the Matrix...WHY must you include that? When you know you just made it up...don't you see how meticulous I am? Don't you see I will notice that? I hate when you do that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
the Phoenixes actions saw that this energy matrix, this gateway between worlds was made a permanent fixture.

Absolutely...VIA the Tower though...it is the Tower in every universe that makes it a permanent fixture...NOT Phoenix...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was outlined previously that the matrix couldn’t be harnessed under the natural course the alignments took. Necrom himself the mentor and most powerful of the group could not do so and yet you would try and have us believe that young (at the time) Merlyn was the one to render the alignment permanent?

Have you even read Necrom's bio before he became Necrom the anti-Phoenix...he wasn't all that.

Necrom:
Necrom seemed to favour necromancy, raising the death to act as his servants. Necrom was also an energy vampire, capable of draining his victims life-energy and abilities to strengthen himself, leaving his victim a charred husk.
Necrom could change his shape: he could stretch his arms to grab victims from afar and hide his appearance from others.

Which is why I said that any small time reality warper(cosmic cubes)could accomplish that feat nowadays.

And yes I will have you believe that "young" Merlyn did bring the Matrix under control and into working function...If Phoenix did such a perfect job...what did Merlyn jump into the Matrix for? A Great Adventure ride perhaps?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenixes feat was to create (using the essence of the original) a tower for every reality of the multiverse simultaneously as outlined. An action that was likened to a pin being threaded through creation.

I will not disagreee with on panel evidence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The fact that it was through a dimensional doorway is irrelevant as the scale, range and simultaneous nature of the application of power is still multiversal.

With this I disagree...

Ofcourse it's Relevent...why did she have to wait for the Alignment in order to project the Tower?

Simultaneous Nature?

Dude she had access to every universe simultaneously...VIA the Interface Alignment.

Range?

What range? They were ALL created instantaneously VIA the Interface Alignment...

It's not like she created the Tower on each universe individualy...they were All created together in one instant...because as long as the Interface was Aligned...she had access to every universe simultaneously.

Phoenix was used to be part of this feat...because she was able to create a duplicate of that Tower..nothing more...once the Interface was Aligned...that one duplicate turned into Multi duplicates VIA the Interface Alignment.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So all that talk of Phoenix not being able to have done the feat is similarly irrelevant as not only is it just an opinion but what was actually accomplished was multiversal regardless.

You wish...

When Phoenix does something of the like...without using the Interface Alignment..then your claim will have some weight.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
No, it happened exactly the way I described it. Go back 2 more panels, and Warlock tell Eternity to not even think of interfering with his process. Eternity gets mad and tell him "I WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS EFFRONTERY!". His energy charges, but he never attacks. Warlock tells Eternity that he is bored with him. Eternity tells him the same thing. In this same scene before Warlock tells him "Begone", Eternity is already blinking away.

WhiteWitchKing is more than capable of responding to this...but I noticed this you wrote..and I Know your wrong...

Why your arguing this forces me to wonder what's your aganda...

But anyhow...

Proof that Warlock does snap his fingers says Begone and Eternity gets teleported away like a joke....two seperate instances.

First... the one your attempting to(in vain)twist and turn.

How you see anything else than Warlock sending Eternity away is inconceivable...unless like I said theres agendas to be filled.

The next is even more obvious and strengthens the fact that the first was the same action in fact.

Proceed with WWK...

But I had to pull this card.

Originally posted by Mr Master
WhiteWitchKing is more than capable of responding to this...but I noticed this you wrote..and I Know your wrong...

Why your arguing this forces me to wonder what's your aganda...

But anyhow...

Proof that Warlock does snap his fingers says Begone and Eternity gets teleported away like a joke....two seperate instances.

First... the one your attempting to(in vain)twist and turn.

How you see anything else than Warlock sending Eternity away is inconceivable...unless like I said theres agendas to be filled.

The next is even more obvious and strengthens the fact that the first was the same action in fact.

Proceed with WWK...

But I had to pull this card.

Thanks for posting these pics. I will admit that I was wrong with the first picture. I looked at that comic earlier today, and I completely missed the glow around Warlock's hand. Don't know how that happened.

BTW, what issue is that second pic from? I'm having a hell of a time finding mine. Thanks again.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres just no arguing with on panel evidence. Creation is outlined as the Phoenixes work, by Death:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18512320669.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18512434275.jpg&s=f10

The Big Bang and the resultant universe aren’t the sum total of the Phoenix. As ive shown through scans and quotes the Phoenix is not only the initiator of the creation cycle, the Big Bang manifest, but she also exists simultaneously beyond space and time. Therefore if it is outlined that Phoenix is reborn into creation as the Big Bang whilst still being separate from said event then of course that means she is the creator of whatever reality results from that manifestation.

More nonsense. Death said: "THE SUM AND SUBSTANCE OF ALL THAT LIVES." Not everything is considered living, including machines, Galactus, and the abstracts. Death never said she represents the universe. Where you got that I don't know. She represents life.

The big bang means what? The abstracts survive through the big bang. If you want to claim she created the abstracts on her own go ahead.

A number of incorrect statements in this paragraph and a few opinion/suppositions. Galactus never began consuming the Forces powers, Galactus was exorcising the Force from Rachel, removing the Phoenixes ties to the physical plane, because he feared its manifestation within Rachel was a threat to the universe. As a result of his actions the stars started fading:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7509355229.jpg&s=x11

Thanks for proving that she's part of the cycle and on the level of other cosmics. "The child is Phoenix. Living embodiment of ONE OF THE PRIMAL FORCES

This is further backed up by "There is a NATURAL ORDER TO HER BEING, AS TO YOURS, AND ALL CREATION." She plays a role in all creation just as Galactus does. Where does it say that her destruction would result in Galactus' DIRECT destruction or that of the abstracts? It doesn't. Galactus would survive but without sustainess. He may die from the hunger but not because PF dies.

The Phoenixes absence from reality would result in “ultimate extinction” for the universe. There would be left a void without even the potential for life. She is quite clearly marked out as the energies of creation, that which sustains a reality

Yet again you've proven my point. She represents life. Her death would not directly affect Galactus who will exist "an Eternity in infinite void wherein not the smallest potential for life."

Remove Galactus and Abraxas shows up. Every body has a role in the cosmos. You've just proven that PF does not have control over the cosmics. If Eternity doesn't exist, guess what happens? Their wouldn't be a place for living things to exist on. Universe you want to argue that PF is the universe.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
More nonsense. Death said: "THE SUM AND SUBSTANCE OF ALL THAT LIVES." Not everything is considered living, including machines, Galactus, and the abstracts. Death never said she represents the universe. Where you got that I don't know. She represents life.

The big bang means what? The abstracts survive through the big bang. If you want to claim she created the abstracts on her own go ahead.

Thanks for proving that she's part of the cycle and on the level of other cosmics. "The child is Phoenix. Living embodiment of [b]ONE OF THE PRIMAL FORCES

This is further backed up by "There is a NATURAL ORDER TO HER BEING, AS TO YOURS, AND ALL CREATION." She plays a role in all creation just as Galactus does. Where does it say that her destruction would result in Galactus' DIRECT destruction or that of the abstracts? It doesn't. Galactus would survive but without sustainess. He may die from the hunger but not because PF dies.

Yet again you've proven my point. She represents life. Her death would not directly affect Galactus who will exist "an Eternity in infinite void wherein not the smallest potential for life."

Remove Galactus and Abraxas shows up. Every body has a role in the cosmos. You've just proven that PF does not have control over the cosmics. If Eternity doesn't exist, guess what happens? Their wouldn't be a place for living things to exist on. Universe you want to argue that PF is the universe. [/B]

Well done WWK...

It's interesting how he reads this "ONE OF THE PRIMAL FORCES" and does not except WHAT that means...

It's OBVIOUS...should I say it again...OBVIOUS that she is ONE of the primal forces..like every other abstract..there really is no difference.

And your right...Galactus dies and for sure the Multiverse is doomed(as already proven on panel)lest the Ultimate Nullifier can be found and used, against Abraxas.

Order or Chaos dies..and this will bring forth madness...the universe cannot exist without either or.

Without Death...well this speaks for itself.

Beyonder was no joke.

and so on and so on.

I'll tell ya though WWK...

He will not relent...he will continue to pump that fallacy...until you give up...and stop responding because you realize your debating with an intransigent individual.

But don't stop...because if you do...innocent onlookers will take that as though he's right...and then you'l have Multi-GS's spewing the same misinterpretations.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]There are many on panel statements and depictions which give Phoenix responsibility for creating reality, portrayals actually referring to it as her work as I have shown.

Now where on panel has it shown that her role in the universe is the most important? That she's actually the creator? And please don't bring up that scan in X-Men Forever and try to claim the abstracts were actually bowing before the PF.

The handbooks are a guideline to continuity, they do not dictate it. That is the very reason why there is a forum made by the handbook creators dedicated to fans posting queries and disagreements pertaining to featured entries.

Now you want to say that the BIO is JUST a guideline? You've used it against the IG to say the IG's power is merely from the PF's big bang.

The funny thing about bios is that I've yet to see where in ANY OF IT is PF refered to as the creator of the Marvel multiverse (which it stated TOAA to be), that PF created the abstracts, or that she is more powerful than any of them.

Now your going to say it's guidline that needs to be debated. Well again I asked you, where is it shown that PF created the abstracts, the Marvel Multiverse, and is regarded as it's creator? Or that it is greater than LT.

That actually isn’t a bad take on things, however it doesn’t address the Phoenix Consciousness of the White Hot Room. The very force which directs these Phoenix manifestations at the universal level as New X-men showed readers. This interpretation by Grant Morrison was been taken on by Greg Pak for Endsong and as stated in his recent interviews is the way Phoenix continuity will continue to be told via his other upcoming Phoenix titles. The universal level, the Big Bang isn’t the be all and end all of Phoenix. It exists as stated several times in different titles simultaneously beyond time and space in a place we’ve been told in recent years is the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force has been given responsibility for manifesting as the Big Bang in multiple realities.

You're basically trying to say the Phoenix of the White Crown is more than universal level. It still doesn't mean she created the multiverse...'less you try and tell me she's responsible for Multiverse Eternity as well.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
Thanks for posting these pics. I will admit that I was wrong with the first picture. I looked at that comic earlier today, and I completely missed the glow around Warlock's hand. Don't know how that happened.

BTW, what issue is that second pic from? I'm having a hell of a time finding mine. Thanks again.

Don't mention it.

That's from Warlock Chronicles #2.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
You're basically trying to say the Phoenix of the White Crown is more than universal level. It still doesn't mean she created the multiverse...'less you try and tell me she's responsible for Multiverse Eternity as well.

Homegirl wasn't even mentioned when they showed Multi-Eternity's creation.

And the funny part is...Reed was there...the same guy he posted saying that the Phoenix Force was the Big Bang.

Originally posted by Mr Master
and so on and so on.

I'll tell ya though WWK...

He will not relent...he will continue to pump that fallacy...until you give up...and stop responding because you realize your debating with an intransigent individual.

But don't stop...because if you do...innocent onlookers will take that as though he's right...and then you'l have Multi-GS's spewing the same misinterpretations. [/B]

So true. And that's the benefit he has on this forum...his outrages claims and essays.

I just wish he showed up in the Comic Book Resources forum again and make these claims.

I think Pendaran and the moderators over their would get a kick out of banning his lying, fanboy ass. You should read Lord S's post in "Marvel Hierarchy" on Rumbles board of Comicbookresources. Quite interesting.

I ran into this two days ago. Galacticstorm calls himself "Phoenix Rising" at Comicbookresources. I thought it was a fun read.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=46969

Did a search of his name and this came up. LOL. Very funny.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=114595

Two bans at one board. Tsk, tsk.