Israel and Lebanon

Originally posted by Soleran
Are you really just that blind or do you just feel the need to be so cynical you need to pursue the "possiblity's," let me guess you must be a scientist, huh? Absolutely there is a possibility and should that possiblity be greater then say (I'm making up numbers here) 50% it might be in Israel's best interests to take action against that target. No one with half a brain needs IDF intelligence to tell you an airport used by civillians MIGHT be used by military units.

The IDF lies.

And yes, I'm a highly cynical scientist. Sue me.
My turn to make a guess, you're one of those people who thinks Vietnam was just peachy keen.

Originally posted by Soleran
Hey I never said Israel was a saint nor that Israel never broke International laws. What I am saying is that if the UN Resolutions meant so much then today we wouldn't have this discussion now would we, Hezbollah would have been disarmed, huh.

Originally posted by Soleran
What you enjoy spouting here is that Israel is a nation-state with a standing army and blah blah blah with the Hezbollah. Now the Hezbollah are a faction of the entire govt. They may not represent the entire country but they are a part of the govt, they also have a standing army. The fact they are a recognized terrorist group is second to the fact that they are a part of the Lebanese govt with a standing army that NEVER follows UN laws nor Lebanese rules.

Originally posted by Soleran
So you keep saying don't attack Lebanon, sure the Hezbollah are bad but but but Israel you're a "real" country and you should know better. If Israel's plans don't fit you're rules, tough, if Israel's military plan doesn't suite your sense of right and wrong then oh well. You can go to sleep easy tonight in Germany knowing no one is bombing your country.

Keep straw manning and trying to make it sound like anyone here thinks any violence Hezbollah has committed is at all condonable. Hezbollah are not a country at all. They're a militia. And a terrorist group. Comparing them to Israel's army and saying one's actions justifies the other to break international law with regards to civilian lives is fallacy.

Israel ratified the Geneva Conventions half a century ago. They are bound by it as is every other country that did so. They are in violation of it.

The magnitude and methods of the Israeli assault are disproportionate and are not justified, as has been noted by several of the G8 leaders, excepting of course for W hogtied by his religious right.

Of course this is how Israel normally operates, so it comes as no surprise.

Israel has now killed around 200 civilians. Approximately 15-20 civilians for each Hezbollah militant.

Originally posted by Soleran
The Hezbollah don't recognize your precious "international law" so to them they aren't breaking it, so once again that "law" isn't serving anyone's needs or even bettering most situations, is it?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And yes, I'm a highly cynical scientist. Sue me.
My turn to make a guess, you're one of those people who thinks Vietnam was just peachy keen.

Nope not gung ho about Vietnam, not very excited about Iraq either. You guessed incorrectly, oh well.

Still hypocrisy. Some nations are expected to abide by the UNSC Resolutions while others may ignore them without rebuke.
Hezbollah militia are not the Lebanese army.
Too bad the Lebanese can't say the same.

The Hezbollah aren't the Lebanese army, YAHOO. Ok well then now that, thats been said for the 10th time. The Hezbollah are however a part of the Govt that is taking action with their own milita (terrorists.) And your right some nations abide by the UNSC Resolutions and it wouldn't appear to be Lebanon huh? Lebanon (Hezbollah) crossed the line both literally(border) and metaphorically. So lets say the UN just punish's Israel and holds them accountable, where is Hezbollah in all this or Lebanon?

Keep straw manning and trying to make it sound like anyone here thinks any violence Hezbollah has committed is at all condonable. Hezbollah are not a country at all. They're a militia. And a terrorist group. Comparing them to Israel's army and saying one's actions justifies the other to break international law with regards to civilian lives is fallacy.

If you feel I'm "straw manning" then stop conversing. I have not said an "eye for an eye." What I have said is the Hezbollah has been attacking Israel and no one stopped Hezbollah, Israel paid that price. Now Israel is taking out Hezbollah and the price being paid is due to the Lebanese gvot being ineffective and inept. Who's to blame, the country protecting it's citizens or the country who has no control over who it's citizens attack?

Of course this is how Israel normally operates, so it comes as no surprise. Israel has now killed around 200 civilians. Approximately 15-20 civilians for each Hezbollah militant.

Um, Israel has been attacked NUMEROUS times by it neighbors for decades. How Israel operates shows far greater restraint then it's neighbors for years. How do you differentiate civilian from Hezbollah? Do Hezbollah wear a badge, probably not. So how are they saying who's who?

Originally posted by Soleran
Nope not gung ho about Vietnam, not very excited about Iraq either. You guessed incorrectly, oh well.

Originally posted by Soleran
The Hezbollah aren't the Lebanese army, YAHOO. Ok well then now that, thats been said for the 10th time. The Hezbollah are however a part of the Govt that is taking action with their own milita (terrorists.) And your right some nations abide by the UNSC Resolutions and it wouldn't appear to be Lebanon huh? Lebanon (Hezbollah) crossed the line both literally(border) and metaphorically. So lets say the UN just punish's Israel and holds them accountable, where is Hezbollah in all this or Lebanon?

Originally posted by Soleran
If you feel I'm "straw manning" then stop conversing. I have not said an "eye for an eye." What I have said is the Hezbollah has been attacking Israel and no one stopped Hezbollah, Israel paid that price. Now Israel is taking out Hezbollah and the price being paid is due to the Lebanese gvot being ineffective and inept. Who's to blame, the country protecting it's citizens or the country who has no control over who it's citizens attack?

Originally posted by Soleran
Um, Israel has been attacked NUMEROUS times by it neighbors for decades. How Israel operates shows far greater restraint then it's neighbors for years. How do you differentiate civilian from Hezbollah? Do Hezbollah wear a badge, probably not. So how are they saying who's who?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[B] And after hearing that for like the 20th time and once more failing to address your hypocrisy. Let's reiterate Lebanon (not Hezbollah) is not composed entirely of Hezbollah. Your hypothetical is moot. Israel has never and will never be punished by the UN for its numerous violations as long as the US holds sway.

We are never going to see eye to eye on this. There is no hypocrisy in Israel defending it's borders from being attacked. People keep throwing the term reasonable around like it holds some value in war, no it doesn't. Since when is war reasonable?

"Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said diplomatic efforts were under way, but that a cease-fire would be impossible unless Israel's three captured soldiers were returned unharmed and Lebanese troops were deployed along the countries' border with a guarantee that the Hezbollah militia would be disarmed." Thanks Yahoo News!

Wow there we go, very reasonable terms for a cease-fire.

Israel does its best to limit the ammount of civilian casualties and judgeing by the ammount of ordinance they have dropped on Lebanon id say they are doing a decent job. Hezbollah sets themselves up in civilian areas, they launch missles from civilian ares because they know that it makes it hard for Israel to target them. Also it makes Israel look bad for the civilian casualties. So should Israel allow Hezbollah to continue launching missles at them cause of Lebanese civilian casualties? Absolutely not.

If the Lebanese people want to blame someone for the death toll blame Hezbollah for drawing the fire into civilian areas. Hezbollah is one of the most recognized and dangerous terrorist forces in the world, Israel attacks with the intent of destroying targets that cause harm to their country while avoiding a large ammount of civilian casualties.

Unlike Hezbollah, Israels military structures arnt smack dab in the middle of civilian areas. So when Hezbollah fires missles at Israel their intent is not to knock out key military structures its to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible. Israel cannot stand by while this happens, Hezbollah needs to be dealt with.

"Isreal defending its borders" What borders??

Isreal is on occupied land, Totally. This country was Palastine before the Jews were taken there after the 2nd world war, and they took over the best parts.

Lets face it, the Islamic folk arn´t going to be happy untill Isreal no longer excists. And after that they´d probably fight still over some internal Muslim thing.

The only solution here is to flatten the whole middle east, by directing a none earth destroying asteroid into it. Or using a massive non fallout nuclear bomb or two. Ok loads of non combatants will die, but they are dying anyway, in fact civilians are being targetted by both sides. Seeing as this will go on for centuries the ammount of life lost will probably be the same in the long run. Then there´ll be a big crater there which can be turned into a tourist resort after it is filled with water.

All the remaining Jews can have a bit of america as thier state seeing as the US likes them so much, death valley maybe. Then after They have taken over half the US we can view another civil war in 50 years. I wonder if the US freedom fighters will be viewed as terrorists!

Originally posted by Bicnarok
"Isreal defending its borders" What borders??

Isreal is on occupied land, Totally. This country was Palastine before the Jews were taken there after the 2nd world war, and they took over the best parts.

Lets face it, the Islamic folk arn´t going to be happy untill Isreal no longer excists. And after that they´d probably fight still over some internal Muslim thing.

The only solution here is to flatten the whole middle east, by directing a none earth destroying asteroid into it. Or using a massive non fallout nuclear bomb or two. Ok loads of non combatants will die, but they are dying anyway, in fact civilians are being targetted by both sides. Seeing as this will go on for centuries the ammount of life lost will probably be the same in the long run. Then there´ll be a big crater there which can be turned into a tourist resort after it is filled with water.

All the remaining Jews can have a bit of america as thier state seeing as the US likes them so much, death valley maybe. Then after They have taken over half the US we can view another civil war in 50 years. I wonder if the US freedom fighters will be viewed as terrorists!

thanks for the history lesson and insight.

Originally posted by Soleran
We are never going to see eye to eye on this. There is no hypocrisy in Israel defending it's borders from being attacked. People keep throwing the term reasonable around like it holds some value in war, no it doesn't. Since when is war reasonable?

"Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said diplomatic efforts were under way, but that a cease-fire would be impossible unless Israel's three captured soldiers were returned unharmed and Lebanese troops were deployed along the countries' border with a guarantee that the Hezbollah militia would be disarmed." Thanks Yahoo News!

Wow there we go, very reasonable terms for a cease-fire.

"About 230 Lebanese people have been killed since then - the vast majority of them civilians, but including about 30 soldiers. The number of Hezbollah fighters killed is not known." BBC

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Yes, because airstrikes on the other party's civilian infrastructure with implicit intent to "take the country back 20 years" and killing the very soldiers you want to disarm the militia and be deployed along the border certainly paves the way for a ceasefire.

Lol, in science class did they also have lessons on how to remain a cynical ass? Yup I remember what they said about knocking them back 20 years when they first started the bombing. Casualties occur, thats the nature of war. That said unfortunetly they do occur and for the number of bombings Israel has kept civilian loss to a minimum considering the damage Lebanon has sustained. To bad Hezbollah deliberatly targets civilians in war and in peace, good for them.

"About 230 Lebanese people have been killed since then - the vast majority of them civilians, but including about 30 soldiers. The number of Hezbollah fighters killed is not known." BBC

Once again how do you identify a Hezbollah soldier vs a regular civilian? I am curious seeing as very typically terrorists don't walk around parading their "terror gear." So the actual number of civilians killed could represent a large number of Hezbollah. Since Hezbollah would typically look to hide their casualty count anyway it's not like you're going to get a very accurate number. Oh well we know what's required from Israel for a cease fire huh.

"Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said diplomatic efforts were under way, but that a cease-fire would be impossible unless Israel's three captured soldiers were returned unharmed and Lebanese troops were deployed along the countries' border with a guarantee that the Hezbollah militia would be disarmed." Thanks Yahoo News!

There we go, all we need is for the Lebanese and Hezbollah tocomply with that and cease fire here we come!

Originally posted by Soleran
Lol, in science class did they also have lessons on how to remain a cynical ass? Yup I remember what they said about knocking them back 20 years when they first started the bombing. Casualties occur, thats the nature of war. That said unfortunetly they do occur and for the number of bombings Israel has kept civilian loss to a minimum considering the damage Lebanon has sustained. To bad Hezbollah deliberatly targets civilians in war and in peace, good for them.

Originally posted by Soleran
Once again how do you identify a Hezbollah soldier vs a regular civilian? I am curious seeing as very typically terrorists don't walk around parading their "terror gear." So the actual number of civilians killed could represent a large number of Hezbollah. Since Hezbollah would typically look to hide their casualty count anyway it's not like you're going to get a very accurate number. Oh well we know what's required from Israel for a cease fire huh.

Originally posted by Soleran
"Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said diplomatic efforts were under way, but that a cease-fire would be impossible unless Israel's three captured soldiers were returned unharmed and Lebanese troops were deployed along the countries' border with a guarantee that the Hezbollah militia would be disarmed." Thanks Yahoo News!

There we go, all we need is for the Lebanese and Hezbollah tocomply with that and cease fire here we come! [/B]

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Yes, it was part of the my 2nd year genetics paper.
The BBC article distinguishes three groups, Lebanese uniformed military, civilians, and Hezbollah. Even if the ratio of civilians to militants was 2:1, and it is undoubtedly higher, it is still to high.
Israel has stated its military operations would not end until its goals were reached regardless of diplomacy.
Livni has said diplomacy in the form of a ceasefire isn't an end to Israel's operations instead "alongside the military operation that will continue. The diplomatic process is not meant to shorten the window of time of the Army's operation but rather is meant to be an extension of it and to prevent a need for future military operations."
Israel has not ruled out a ground invasion and until recently has been cold towards any international force. Israel has also indicated it will step up its attacks, as the U.S. may not be able to continue to resist international pressure upon them.

Oh well, looks like Israel is going to take care of the terrorist standing militia govt group known as Hezbollah in Lebanon then, huh.

Originally posted by Soleran
Oh well, looks like Israel is going to take care of the terrorist standing militia govt group known as Hezbollah in Lebanon then, huh.

Which still doesn't change that Israel is leading an unjust war and should be stopped (I'd fancy an US Invasion...seeing as they actually do something to justify it not like this Saddam dude)

LoL please tell me the times of a "justified" war. The person who decides what is and what isn't justified usually isn't the person facing the transgression at the time.

Originally posted by Soleran
LoL please tell me the times of a "justified" war. The person who decides what is and what isn't justified usually isn't the person facing the transgression at the time.

There is hardly any, but you admit that this one is not justified? Good enough for me.

Originally posted by Bardock42
There is hardly any, but you admit that this one is not justified? Good enough for me.

Lol, I never said it wasn't justified, I did however ask for clarity on a justified war in your opinion.

Originally posted by Soleran
Lol, I never said it wasn't justified, I did however ask for clarity on a justified war in your opinion.

Well,one for example where the side it's supposed to be justified on did not attack for no reason except an unrelated one.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well,one for example where the side it's supposed to be justified on did not attack for no reason except an unrelated one.

Ok, nine more reasons to go 😐

www.dictionary.com

Originally posted by Soleran
Ok, nine more reasons to go 😐

www.dictionary.com

Yeah, I worded that badly. I meant acceptable reasons by UN standards instead of unrelated reasons they give which are not the actual reasons.

anyone else really really creeped out by this?

Yeah, that's... really wierd.