Originally posted by allofyousuckkk
It's the beginning of the third world war.
I think that this conflict has serious potential to escalade into a global conflict. It all depends, though. After all, Hezbollah is backed by Syria and Iran. If Israel decides to invade Syria (a bold move), Iran would definitely get involved, and if Iran gets involved, the U.S. and Russia will get involved (on different sides). This conflict could ignite a sitting powder keg.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A tad extreme.Basically saying that if a little violence will do, you might as well just do more. That's what serial killers think, "Well...I've killed one...might as well kill ten.".
-AC
Sorry, but I don't look at things from a serial killer POV (if you do that's disturbing). It's more like if a kid is facing a bully. You could just talk at him and hope he'll leave you alone, but if it comes to a fight you'll take a lot less damage if you give it your all instead of "fighting fair".
Originally posted by Soleran
Maybe, but lets be honest here. Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanon nation, there isn't a way to say they aren't. Hell tthe Hezbollah are a part of the Govt there, Lebanon knows they are a militant group!When Israel asked Lebanon to diffuse the situation themselves and disarm them, Lebanon said it couldn't and that it didn't want to send in it's military force to serve as a border guard to Israel's northern border!
It's pretty damn obvious someone went to pick a fight with Israel and they are going to get spanked, HARD. Egypt learned a tough lesson the same way...............Israel is a small country which cannot afford to be squimish and throw insults over their borders when its obvious other countries are prepared to do much MUCH more.
Work on some internationalism. Hezbollah is a rogue terrorist group. Everytime Isreal gets hit they whine like no other and then continues militaristic policies that encourage future violence.
It is not Isreal's position to "spank" anyone. There are international laws. International airports are civilian targets. Naval blockades are blatant acts of war. Isreal would already have a clear sanction aganst them if that idiot tool Bolton and the president you appointed them were gone.
Isreal is the one thats agressive. They are the one with their armies in foreign nations. I personally wish the United States would backhand Isreal and withdraw thier support for them. YOu act so tough, like you're the good guy. Wake up and realize the situation is not one sided. This whole incident is outrageous and wouldn't mind if Isreal was crushed. Right now I feel they deserve nothing less. Have you listend to Olmert? Hes as bad as Ahmadinejad.
Isreal better afford to learn that thay are not the only people in the world and that terrorist attacks are nto the way to resolve problems. Its not being squeamish, its being a mature, rational adult.
Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
would a terrorist organization do that?Calling Israel a terrorist state is a bit much, don’t you think? They’re obviously going after Hezbollah targets, and as was said before, Hezbollah has seats in the gov’t and is an active part of the political system in Lebanon.
I didn't call them a terrorist state, merely commented on how their tactics could be seen as similar to terrorist ones. Yes, they dropped leaflets, but how many actual terrorists have they killed compared to civilians? How many terrorist installations have they damaged compared to non-terrorist ones? And how does blockading ports and doing things to the airport go after terrorist targets? It doesn't - it is a way of using fear of the Israeli military to get a response from the Government/people of Lebanon, and as I said, there is a distinct similarity in such tactics.
And as I asked in the hypothetical earlier "if some US terrorist cell (and we know they exist) kidnapped a Mexican soldier - now does Mexico have a just cause to cross the border and start bombing parts of US cities until they kill the terrorists/free their soldier?"
Originally posted by Soleran
Maybe, but lets be honest here. Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanon nation, there isn't a way to say they aren't. Hell tthe Hezbollah are a part of the Govt there, Lebanon knows they are a militant group!
Yes, but different laws - some nations are less strict on proscribed groups and what members can do. Just having a minority of politicians in government who are members of a terrorist group does not equal Lebanon being a terrorist state, nor condoning the actions of the group.
When Israel asked Lebanon to diffuse the situation themselves and disarm them, Lebanon said it couldn't and that it didn't want to send in it's military force to serve as a border guard to Israel's northern border!
As, ultimately, is their right as a sovereign nation. It does not, however, give Israel the right to act as a regional army/police force and go in without Lebanese consent. A far better tactic would have been to attempt to negotiate with Lebanon to work out a deal where the two nations military forces worked together - it was not a good option to start bombing.
And fancy, Lebonon saying it shouldn't have to guard Israels border! Where do they get off? I mean, gee, it is as if they as a nation feel they have a right to decide what to do with their limited military resources and not do as the Israeli goverernment tells them. That certainly is enough to earn them a military blockade.
It's pretty damn obvious someone went to pick a fight with Israel and they are going to get spanked, HARD. Egypt learned a tough lesson the same way...............Israel is a small country which cannot afford to be squimish and throw insults over their borders when its obvious other countries are prepared to do much MUCH more.
Other countries? A terrorist organisation took a soldier hostage - Israel sent in the tanks and soldiers, two more hostages are taken by a different terrorist organisation - Israel begins attacking a nation in a way that violates international law despite the fact that nation is not with the terrorists. This isn't like Egypt invading. And Israel, ultimately does not, and nor should it, have the right to go into someone else's house and start spanking people. Because that is what it is like and so far for all this action in Lebanon, it doesn't actually appear they have achieved anything other then:
a. Kill some innocent civilians.
b. make the people angry.
c. Make nations such as France and Russia condemn Israeli actions
d. Put staunch ally US in a tough position of condemning Israeli action, or support them despite the poor light it would cast upon the US. I mean, can the US really aford to be seen as bending or breaking international laws anymore? Since pre-emption went so pear shaped?
Israel, really, needs to learn to approach things in a different fashion - there is a time for fighting, in the right circumstances, but there is also a time for diplomacy. Israel depends far to much on fighting and expecting people to just say "ok, you can blockade Lebanon's ports despite that usually being equatable to declaring war, and since Lebanon has done nothing wrong you would be the aggressor, but we will say it is ok because you are Israel"
Originally posted by Alliance
Work on some internationalism. Hezbollah is a rogue terrorist group. Everytime Isreal gets hit they whine like no other and then continues militaristic policies that encourage future violence.It is not Isreal's position to "spank" anyone. There are international laws. International airports are civilian targets. Naval blockades are blatant acts of war. Isreal would already have a clear sanction aganst them if that idiot tool Bolton and the president you appointed them were gone.
Isreal is the one thats agressive. They are the one with their armies in foreign nations. I personally wish the United States would backhand Isreal and withdraw thier support for them. YOu act so tough, like you're the good guy. Wake up and realize the situation is not one sided. This whole incident is outrageous and wouldn't mind if Isreal was crushed. Right now I feel they deserve nothing less. Have you listend to Olmert? Hes as bad as Ahmadinejad.
Isreal better afford to learn that thay are not the only people in the world and that terrorist attacks are nto the way to resolve problems. Its not being squeamish, its being a mature, rational adult.
Wow, are you out of touch.
Lebanon is a puppet government for two factions-Syria and Hizbollah-which is considered the world's most powerful terrorist group but is in actuallity more like a paramilitary wing for Iran. They recieve approximatly ten massive planeloads of weapons from Iran a year. Israel cut off their supply after a military attack on the port city of Haifa which has a population of nearly a million people. Hamas is a terrorist organization with a lot of populist support due to its running of palestinian infrastructure thanks to retards like Arafat, the PLO, and Fatah. The other actors involved are Al Qaida which despite being opposed by Hizbollah is trying to forge an alliance against a common enemy with little success. And the Kachanists-Israeli terrorist groups like the JDL who are willing to kill thousands of Jews with nerve gas in order to frame arab terrorists and bring about government action to wipe out arabs from israel.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as I asked in the hypothetical earlier "if some US terrorist cell (and we know they exist) kidnapped a Mexican soldier - now does Mexico have a just cause to cross the border and start bombing parts of US cities until they kill the terrorists/free their soldier?"
Maybe not if the USA just kidnapped a soldier, however that wasn't the only action taken. Israel was fired on from Lebanon with a multitude of missiles........................seriously I am no expert here but READ. If the USA had the cajones to fire missiles at Mexico as well as take a soldier they would get into a conflict wouldn't you suspect?
Yes, but different laws - some nations are less strict on proscribed groups and what members can do. Just having a minority of politicians in government who are members of a terrorist group does not equal Lebanon being a terrorist state, nor condoning the actions of the group.
Some nations are less strict....................lol dude once again the Hezbollah have around 30 plus seats in the current parliament. THEY are the Govt, and the rest of Lebanon CHOSE to do nothing to control them....................
As, ultimately, is their right as a sovereign nation. It does not, however, give Israel the right to act as a regional army/police force and go in without Lebanese consent. A far better tactic would have been to attempt to negotiate with Lebanon to work out a deal where the two nations military forces worked together - it was not a good option to start bombing.
Yeah its never good to start bombing make sure Lebanon learns these rules as well...............once again missile strike from Lebanon hit Israel. Lebanon engaged Israel, Israel went in and hit targets that had potential military value.............bridges, airports, sources of power.
And fancy, Lebonon saying it shouldn't have to guard Israels border! Where do they get off? I mean, gee, it is as if they as a nation feel they have a right to decide what to do with their limited military resources and not do as the Israeli goverernment tells them. That certainly is enough to earn them a military blockade.
No, what you're failing to grasp here is that Lebanon knew of the potential threat as well as Israel. Israel and other countries asked Lebanon to do something to control it before it got out of hand, Lebanon chose not to and added insult to injury by saying we aren't going to protect your borders when it all actuality people were just asking Lebanon to police their own country.............
Israel, really, needs to learn to approach things in a different fashion - there is a time for fighting, in the right circumstances, but there is also a time for diplomacy. Israel depends far to much on fighting and expecting people to just say "ok, you can blockade Lebanon's ports despite that usually being equatable to declaring war, and since Lebanon has done nothing wrong you would be the aggressor, but we will say it is ok because you are Israel"
You sir, need to stop talking until you read more facts. I am sure I will learn more on this as the days pass, however you apparently are approaching this from one side, Lebanon's side. Poor poor Lebanon victimized, poor poor Lebanon................lets see Israel hit with a barrage of missiles in a civilian section.......................Israel before bombing drops fliers stating they are going to be bombing in an hour so get out or lose it........................yeah I can see Israel's intentions as just wanting to destroy civilian populations.................whatever.
The historic and religious reasons for Middle East conflict can be argued either way as to who is right. What we know/have observed is this:
Most of the Arab world does not want peace with Israel. Period. It wants Israel wiped off the face of the Earth. They don't want a two-state solution: everytime Israel has made either bilateral or unilateral overtures, the Arabs reneg. There will never be peace/two-state solution until the Arab mindset changes. To believe otherwise--however benevolently and magnanimously intended--is simply misguided.
When Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah don't attack Israel, Israel 1) does not attack them; and 2) Palestinians begin to prosper.
Unless you have lived in Israel, unless you know what it's like to go about your everyday business, surrounded by enemies, always wondering if today is the day you or someone you love is going to be blown apart by a suicide bomber, you are in no position to judge Israel's actions. You may think you are, but you're not. What's happening now is terrible, but before you get on your anti-war/anti-Israel soapbox, walk a mile in Israel's moccasins.
Bottom line: of all countries in the Middle East, in which would you be most free and most likely to prosper?
Like America, Israel does not have blood-free hands. But plainly put, they are Not the Bad Guys.
(BTW, as for why Israel had to go into Lebanon: this is because of how terrorists fight...)
Originally posted by Mindship
The historic and religious reasons for Middle East conflict can be argued either way as to who is right. What we know/have observed is this:Most of the Arab world does not want peace with Israel. Period. It wants Israel wiped off the face of the Earth. They don't want a two-state solution: everytime Israel has made either bilateral or unilateral overtures, the Arabs reneg. There will never be peace/two-state solution until the Arab mindset changes. To believe otherwise--however benevolently and magnanimously intended--is simply misguided.
When Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah don't attack Israel, Israel 1) does not attack them; and 2) Palestinians begin to prosper.
Unless you have lived in Israel, unless you know what it's like to go about your everyday business, surrounded by enemies, always wondering if today is the day you or someone you love is going to be blown apart by a suicide bomber, you are in no position to judge Israel's actions. You may think you are, but you're not. What's happening now is terrible, but before you get on your anti-war/anti-Israel soapbox, walk a mile in Israel's moccasins.
Bottom line: of all countries in the Middle East, in which would you be most free and most likely to prosper?
Like America, Israel does not have blood-free hands. But plainly put, they are Not the Bad Guys.
(BTW, as for why Israel had to go into Lebanon: this is because of how terrorists fight...)
I just heard a thousand thoughts explode.
Originally posted by Soleran
Maybe not if the USA just kidnapped a soldier, however that wasn't the only action taken. Israel was fired on from Lebanon with a multitude of missiles........................seriously I am no expert here but READ. If the USA had the cajones to fire missiles at Mexico as well as take a soldier they would get into a conflict wouldn't you suspect?
No, not America, a terrorist organisation operating without the consent of the government from American soil. And so far no one, not even the US, has claimed that Hezbollah is acting with the approval of the Lebanese government - in fact they have said the opposite.
Some nations are less strict....................lol dude once again the Hezbollah have around 30 plus seats in the current parliament. THEY are the Govt, and the rest of Lebanon CHOSE to do nothing to control them....................
Yes, and some nations outlaw groups and it is a crime to be a part of them, others don't and you can still get a job. As above - no one is saying Lebanon endorses the actions of Hezbolla, in fact all quotes coming from Western nations seems to be the opposite.
Yeah its never good to start bombing make sure Lebanon learns these rules as well...............once again missile strike from Lebanon hit Israel. Lebanon engaged Israel, Israel went in and hit targets that had potential military value.............bridges, airports, sources of power.
No Lebanon didn't bomb Israel - a terrorist organisation did, and ultimately Israel is, in terms of international conventions, in the wrong in how they responded. And targets being struck are not inherently terrorist in nature, but Lebanese - as you said, brides, the air port, power stations - it isn't hurting the terrorists doing the firing, if anything it is helping them as the people get angry and other nations condemn Israel for attacking targets of a civilian nature with no links to the terrorists in question.
No, what you're failing to grasp here is that Lebanon knew of the potential threat as well as Israel. Israel and other countries asked Lebanon to do something to control it before it got out of hand, Lebanon chose not to and added insult to injury by saying we aren't going to protect your borders when it all actuality people were just asking Lebanon to police their own country.............
There is a difference in out right refusing and being unable to effectively do it. But once again, as cynical as it sounds, it is Lebanon's right/responsibility to approach the situation as they deem fit. Just like the US hasn't pressed Saudi Arabia over how they deal with Al-Quedia, or Jordan/Libya and so on. It would have been better to approach Lebanon in a diplomatic sense. I can think of nothing that would make a nation less inclined to help another then to have the nation in need start bombing because they don't like your attitude or the way you approach the situation.
You sir, need to stop talking until you read more facts. I am sure I will learn more on this as the days pass, however you apparently are approaching this from one side, Lebanon's side. Poor poor Lebanon victimized, poor poor Lebanon................lets see Israel hit with a barrage of missiles in a civilian section.......................Israel before bombing drops fliers stating they are going to be bombing in an hour so get out or lose it........................yeah I can see Israel's intentions as just wanting to destroy civilian populations.................whatever.
No, I am not on Lebanon's side in which you imply, but I am looking at it from a practical perspective. Both sides are being problematic, and it is costing lives. But I am aware of the facts, and I know that virtually no nation is supporting the way Israel is handling it - even the US, usually the most forgiving when it comes to Israel, has said that Israel needs to use restraint. Nor am I saying that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, but the fact is that of the 50+ people that have been killed in Lebanon, virtually none of them are terrorists (wait, I don't think a single one has been identified as such) - the whole plan is to bomb an area where Hezbollah are known to have hid - amongst a dense civilian population. Likewise blockading ports, bombing brides and airports - how exactly is this getting at the terrorists?
Israel has had wrong done to it - but this does not give it free reign to respond as they wish. For once Rice seems to be talking from a rational view point - restraint is needed. Lets not do anything rash - I ask, in all seriousness, for those who endorse the Israeli retaliation - what do you think it will achieve? You speak of teaching Lebanon, which might be ok if they were in a more definite state of wrong doing but as they aren't all it is doing is whipping up anti-Israeli sentiment, and sapping national support for the Israeli predicament.
Once again I empathise that I feel for the Israeli position, but it because I feel for it that I will say they are doing themselves no favours acting like this.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
[B]No, not America, a terrorist organisation operating without the consent of the government from American soil.
You don't seem to let this sink in apparently, the Hezbollah are a part of the govt! Not some 3rd party that has no affiliation with Lebanon other then its residence. It's a part of the GOVT!
Yes, and some nations outlaw groups and it is a crime to be a part of them, others don't and you can still get a job. As above - no one is saying Lebanon endorses the actions of Hezbolla, in fact all quotes coming from Western nations seems to be the opposite.
Whatever Lebanon does endorse or doesn't, the Hezbollah are a part of the govt. They are known terrorists and if Lebanon cannot properly police it's own country and this terrorist group acts out to another country its clear action must be taken outside of the Lebanon govt, they have no control and can do nothing about their own problem which is now an international problem.
No Lebanon didn't bomb Israel - a terrorist organisation did, and ultimately Israel is, in terms of international conventions, in the wrong in how they responded.[QUOTE]Lebanon did "bomb" Israel it was just done without the entire Govt's support. We have already established that the Hezbollah are a part of the govt, just not all of it, yet.
[QUOTE]There is a difference in out right refusing and being unable to effectively do it. But once again, as cynical as it sounds, it is Lebanon's right/responsibility to approach the situation as they deem fit. Just like the US hasn't pressed Saudi Arabia over how they deal with Al-Quedia, or Jordan/Libya and so on. It would have been better to approach Lebanon in a diplomatic sense. I can think of nothing that would make a nation less inclined to help another then to have the nation in need start bombing because they don't like your attitude or the way you approach the situation.
Lebanon cannot control the Hezbollah, they have even said that. Or they said they could but it's not right for Lebanon to keep troops on its southern border just to keep Israel's border safe. Hmmm which one is it, and if it really is the second reason that means they had the power they just didn't take action, their fault and Israel suffered and took it as a military action.
No, I am not on Lebanon's side in which you imply, but I am looking at it from a practical perspective. Both sides are being problematic, and it is costing lives. But I am aware of the facts, and I know that virtually no nation is supporting the way Israel is handling it - even the US, usually the most forgiving when it comes to Israel, has said that Israel needs to use restraint.
Once again who attacked who again? An open military attack deliberatly aimed on civilian targets................once again you are blind if you try to remotely compare Israel's actions to Lebanon's.
Likewise blockading ports, bombing brides and airports - how exactly is this getting at the terrorists?
It's getting at the entire country of Lebanon, stop dissassociating Hezbollah with Lebanon, they are one faction in the Govt of the country.
Is violence the answer? It's ugly but regardless Israel is constantly under attack and has extended peace offerings in the past and they are shot down and then more bombings occur. This incident isn't isolated stop acting as though this is all about civilians, if it were and their lives meant so much terrorists would stop using them, and they won't.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I didn't call them a terrorist state, merely commented on how their tactics could be seen as similar to terrorist ones. Yes, they dropped leaflets, but how many actual terrorists have they killed compared to civilians? How many terrorist installations have they damaged compared to non-terrorist ones? And how does blockading ports and doing things to the airport go after terrorist targets? It doesn't - it is a way of using fear of the Israeli military to get a response from the Government/people of Lebanon, and as I said, there is a distinct similarity in such tactics.
Blockading ports and bombing airports and highways cuts off Lebanese terrorists from their Syrian allies. It's a strategic move on Israel's part. Until the Lebanese gov't does something about the terrorism in their country, Israel has every right to make moves against those people attacking them and that includes cutting off their supply lines.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as I asked in the hypothetical earlier "if some US terrorist cell (and we know they exist) kidnapped a Mexican soldier - now does Mexico have a just cause to cross the border and start bombing parts of US cities until they kill the terrorists/free their soldier?"
No, but if that happened surely the U.S. government would do everything in their power to try and get that Mexican soldier back as to calm nerves and preserve positive relations with the country. Lebanon has already said they don't want to commit resources to aid Israel by hunting down terrorists, so they have to go in themselves and take care of things. Israel has tried diplomacy with its neighbors plenty, and I believe they are just fed up. I think it was a bold move on Israel's part but I also think they had every right to do what they did
Destryoing international airports and bombing Palestinian government offices are over the line. Naval blockades are over the line. Isreal needs to learn some self control and that the have a huge responsibility in the region.
Soleran, Hezbollah is NOT the entire fricking governemnt. Just becuase there are terrorists in the nation doesnt mean that the nation is a terrorist state. Isreal is killing civilians all over the place so Mindship you can keep your twisted propoganda.
Olmert's comments about destroying all infrastructure and takint Lebanon back 20 years...thats WAY over the line. This is totally unjustified. I'm not saying that Hebollah was right to kidnap two soldiers, but Isreal should know better than this bloodthirst.
The international community is against Isreal on this. There is a reason for that. My support for Isreal has erroded immensely because of this. Many people feel the same. They acting no better than the terrorist.
Originally posted by Alliance
Destryoing international airports and bombing Palestinian government offices are over the line. Naval blockades are over the line. Isreal needs to learn some self control and that the have a huge responsibility in the region.Soleran, Hezbollah is NOT the entire fricking governemnt. Just becuase there are terrorists in the nation doesnt mean that the nation is a terrorist state. Isreal is killing civilians all over the place so Mindship you can keep your twisted propoganda.
Olmert's comments about destroying all infrastructure and takint Lebanon back 20 years...thats WAY over the line. This is totally unjustified. I'm not saying that Hebollah was right to kidnap two soldiers, but Isreal should know better than this bloodthirst.
The international community is against Isreal on this. There is a reason for that. My support for Isreal has erroded immensely because of this. Many people feel the same. They acting no better than the terrorist.
What level of action would you deem appropriate?
Where's a Bardock42 post on this topic yet anyway, he posts his opinion frequently in all threads that pop up in the GDF!
So if dancing is your answer do you mean like Dancing on their graves? Dancing in the streets? Dancing with some hot chick at a bar with to many drinks and your not sure how you're going to get home?
Originally posted by SoleranStreets.
Where's a Bardock42 post on this topic yet anyway, he posts his opinion frequently in all threads that pop up in the GDF!So if dancing is your answer do you mean like Dancing on their graves? Dancing in the streets? Dancing with some hot chick at a bar with to many drinks and your not sure how you're going to get home?
Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
What level of action would you deem appropriate?
I can see some local retaliton. Hezbollah's main area of operation is in the South, along the border.
Technically, no retaliation would be the best option. But I understand their situation and I can give them a bit of leeway.
Though, giving everyone a night out at the discotecas woudl be a good solution 👆
Isreal must forget that Hezbollah developed mainly as a response to the Isreali occupation of Lebanon. RE-occubying the southern part of Lebanon is not going to imporve the situation, let alone solve anything.
In fact, to me it painfully obvious that the sitation is going to continuosly deteriorate, especialyl because neither Isreal nor the US can reisist implicating Syria and Iran. I think the destrction of the Egypt-Palestine gate and the flood of more people with terrorist intentions into Palestine from Egypt is evidence about how this is the WRONG path.