Israel and Lebanon

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
1. What should Israel do? Use restrained, proportionate and discriminate assault so as to minimalise civilian and NGO casualty. Stop acting unilaterally. Comply with the UNSCRs it is in violation of. Cease settlement building and annexation of land, institutionalized discrimination amounting to apartheid, and belligerant occupation. Return to the pre-1967 borders.

2. Now answer my questions:
When one considers the magnitude and depth of Hezbollah attacks now as compared to since the Israeli bombardment began have the aerial bombardments impaired Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel?
If Israel claimed the deaths of 5,000 civilians in Lebanon were necessary would you deem their actions justified and proportionate? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?
Disregarding public relations do you believe that the IDF/AF have a high regard for how many civilians die as "collateral damage"?
Do you believe killing several civilian families is legitimate in the destruction of a Katyusha rocket?
What do you believe the outcome of the current situation will achieve?
What should the Lebanese citizens and government do?

3. Elaborate on the mentality behind this statement:
It has also shown, repeatedly, a willingness to negotiate, including a two-state solution to the "Palestinian Problem," which the Palestinians have, repeatedly, rejected.

1. These have been done or tried, tried and failed because of the relentless Islamofacist mentality: "Destroy Israel. No negotiations. Just destroy Israel." Period. The 1967 war is a prime example (besides, I said be realistic in your response: Israel won't do anything to put itself back in harm's way, just like you wouldn't. I also said, spare me history tangents, as this is debatable and off-topic).

2. War is hell. Israel is doing what it deems necessary to protect itself, doing what Lebanon should've done: disarm Hezbollah. BTW, you see Hezbollah dropping leaflets on Israeli cities, warning them rockets are coming? No. You see Israel using its own citizens as shields? No. Hezbollah couldn't care less about its own people. It only cares about one thing: Destroy Israel. No negotiations. Just destroy Israel.

3. Last attempt was tried with Arafat. He reneged. If you want a more elaborate history of peace attempts, you can Google as well as I can. The point is, as Abba Eban said (whom, no doubt, the blame-Israel-crowd is wiser than): "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Since you did make something of an attempt to answer (if violating some of my conditions, like don't bring up history tangents), let me personalize this a bit more:

George is coming to kill you. He's told you so, more than once.
You tried talking to him, reasoning, appeasing. He doesn't care: he just wants to kill you.
You go to the authorities. Those who actually care about your plight start discussing among themselves what to do. Meanwhile, George is still coming to kill you.
IF you get the opportunity, you wound him. He gets caught, does time, comes out and is back on course to kill you.
Reasoning has failed. Notifying authorities has failed. Fighting back nonlethally has failed. George is coming to kill you. Worse, now he's going to do it in the sneakiest way possible. You'll never see it coming until it's too late.
You have two choices:
1. Live in fear, never knowing how or when your end is coming.
2. Take matters into your own hands.

What are you gonna do? Again, please don't be evasive. Just answer the question.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Interesting you again try to draw parallels with WWII, when there is so little analogous between this conflict and WWII it's laughable. When one considers the magnitude and depth of Hezbollah attacks now as compared to since the Israeli bombardment began have the aerial bombardments impaired Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel?
Both Israel and Hezbollah. Although since you've stated the death of several families is an acceptable cost for the destruction of a Katyusha rocket I'm sure you only see Hezbollah to blame.

If Israel claimed the deaths of 5,000 civilians in Lebanon were necessary would you deem their actions justified and proportionate? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?
Interesting you still haven't taken in that Katyusha rockets are short-range mobile weaponry.

Tell me, disregarding public relations do you believe that the IDF/AF have a high regard for how many civilians die as "collateral damage"?
Highlighting poor use of vocabulary simply indicates I dislike poor use of vocabulary.

The Israeli government's regular modus operandi is to retroactively redefine goals of military actions depending upon their outcome. The Israeli government with withdraw either ceding to international pressure or become entrenched in a stalemate losing domestic public favour and declare an arbitrary victory. They will not successfully eliminate Hezbollah.
No, merely pointing out there is a lacking in your knowledge of Middle Eastern history and geopolitics.

Lol, you dance around and around... I am not using WWII as a parallel, I am using a war any war for that matter to show you how ridiculous your 'since Israel didn't defeat Hezbollah already, thy should stop' notion. It's war, it's ongoing.

Both Israel and Hezbollah's fault? You're logic is amazing... And yes, I see it as Hezbollahs fault for the deaths of those families, if they intentional hide weapons where civilians are with the intent of using them to attack Israel, Israel has no choice but to destroy those weapons before they are used, even if it means having to kill innocents. How you cannot see this as being Hezbollah's fault in a cowardly attempt to play the PR game is amazing.

Get it through your head, Israel is not specifically targeting civilians. Think about it, if Israel didn't care about the civilian casualties and/or was in fact targeting them in some blood lust as you claimed before wouldn't there be more than the 900 or so deaths? Think long and hard about this one, you realize Israel's military might, they could easily kill 1000+ civilians a day, every day. No?

I could care less if you like poor grammar and pointing out grammatical errors is pathetic. Not to mention, you're not the end all be all of grammatical perfection.

Well considering the the U.S. and France have come with a UN resolution to a cease fire on both side, while still allowing Israel to defend itself if attacked, it seems there will be an end with no clear victor.

Ok.... And I ask you again, what does the origins of the IDF from 60+ years ago have to do with current events? Nothing, you're desperately grabbing at anything.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Olmert's lack of military background and ineptitude as a military stategist gives the upper echelon of the armed forces relative free reign. Ironically I doubt Sharon, while being more belligerent in personal attitude, would have gotten himself bogged down in Lebanon while at the same time having military operations in Gaza.

I agree. There has been a lot of speculation about this. Olmert is tryign to prove himself and is creating a black hole of dispair in the process.

This is for Mindship and his propoganda.

Originally posted by Alliance
I agree. There has been a lot of speculation about this. Olmert is tryign to prove himself and is creating a black hole of dispair in the process.

This is for Mindship and his propoganda.

Except mine reflects what's really going on...yours is wishful thinking as evidenced, for example, by the lack of Hezbollah rockets. Oops!

Originally posted by Alliance
I agree. There has been a lot of speculation about this. Olmert is tryign to prove himself and is creating a black hole of dispair in the process.

This is for Mindship and his propoganda.

A fatal flaw in your cartoon... It is a known fact that Hezbollah has zero regard for civilians any civilians. Otherwise, they wouldn't store militia and munitions in apartment complexes, schools, hospitals etc. etc.

Funny thing too, your cartoon would suggest that Hezbollah are not terrorist, but soldiers trying to protect while the 'terrorist' Israel is targeting children. Last time I checked, Israeli religious leaders were not the ones brainwashing their youth into blowing themselves up in order to kil children for the promise of afterlife rewards (virgins).

Originally posted by Robtard
A fatal flaw in your cartoon... It is a known fact that Hezbollah has zero regard for civilians any civilians. Otherwise, they wouldn't store militia and munitions in apartment complexes, schools, hospitals etc. etc.

Thats true, plus after you destroy munition sites Hezbollah can cry to humanitarian groups about how Israel is targeting civilians and such! Win the hearts of your enemies populace to destroy the war at "home" if you will.

Originally posted by Sam Z
What would You do if someone came to your motherland, killed your relatives, treated you like a dog and forced you to leave your land? No wonder everyone in palestine hates Israel, same with Lebanon. You really assume that Israel bombs civilians because Arabs use them as human shields? If so then you are naive, they kill civilians because they don't care if they kill inocents or not, and they want people to be affraid of them and sometimes they kill just for fun.
They say they fight terrorists but that sounds stupid because they are terrorists themsevls, the differance is that they don't have to blow themselvs to kill dozens of people. They do NOT fight army, they kill families, kids and two israeli soldiers is just an excuse because there are thousands arabs in israel prisons.
So what should Lebanon do? Let them blow inocent people and lie that they "fight terrorism" or fight back?

Nicely put.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Nicely put.

Except he poses that question that Jews do not belong in the middle east... Last time I checked, the region of Israel was their homeland. Maybe I'm wrong, but did Jews originate somewhere else? Canada maybe?

Oh, and Lebanon should have disarmed the Hezbollah terrorist, not saying it would have been easy and without a price. A country that harbors terrorist is asking to be attacked when said terrorist do acts of terror.

Originally posted by Mindship
2. War is hell. Israel is doing what it deems necessary to protect itself, doing what Lebanon should've done: disarm Hezbollah. BTW, you see Hezbollah dropping leaflets on Israeli cities, warning them rockets are coming? No. You see Israel using its own citizens as shields? No. Hezbollah couldn't care less about its own people. It only cares about one thing: Destroy Israel. No negotiations. Just destroy Israel.

Umm silly argument, because Hezbollah can't drop leaflets. And wtf is a leaflet anyway? Get the f*ck out of your house right now because we're going to blow it to the ground. We're very compassionate you see. And while you flee, we may or may not use our apache helicopters to blow your car up as well.

Hezbollah can't fight the way Israel does, because they don't have an air force Tard. If they fought like a battalion, they'd be dead within a day because they have no air cover. This is a resistance group. Just as any other resistance group, they have to hide. Think the french during WWII.

Hezbollah do care about their people. Again you have no clue what you're talking about. They've funded infrastrutures for their people inthe past and set up shelters during this crisis. If they didn't care about their people, they wouldn't be fighting, would they? Do you think they fight just for the hell of it?

Originally posted by Mindship
3. Last attempt was tried with Arafat. He reneged. If you want a more elaborate history of peace attempts, you can Google as well as I can. The point is, as Abba Eban said (whom, no doubt, the blame-Israel-crowd is wiser than): "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Since you did make something of an attempt to answer (if violating some of my conditions, like don't bring up history tangents), let me personalize this a bit more:

George is coming to kill you. He's told you so, more than once.
You tried talking to him, reasoning, appeasing. He doesn't care: he just wants to kill you.
You go to the authorities. Those who actually care about your plight start discussing among themselves what to do. Meanwhile, George is still coming to kill you.
IF you get the opportunity, you wound him. He gets caught, does time, comes out and is back on course to kill you.
Reasoning has failed. Notifying authorities has failed. Fighting back nonlethally has failed. George is coming to kill you. Worse, now he's going to do it in the sneakiest way possible. You'll never see it coming until it's too late.
You have two choices:
1. Live in fear, never knowing how or when your end is coming.
2. Take matters into your own hands.

What are you gonna do? Again, please don't be evasive. Just answer the question.

...

Say that again and see if it makes any more sense the second time around.

Originally posted by Robtard
Except he poses that question that Jews do not belong in the middle east... Last time I checked, the region of Israel was their homeland. Maybe I'm wrong, but did Jews originate somewhere else? Canada maybe?

Oh, and Lebanon should have disarmed the Hezbollah terrorist, not saying it would have been easy and without a price. A country that harbors terrorist is asking to be attacked when said terrorist do acts of terror.

That was 2000 years ago. What a bright idea, let's all do the same.

We can give america back to the indians and you can f*ck off back to whatever hole you came out from ;P

Originally posted by Sam Z
You really assume that Israel bombs civilians because Arabs use them as human shields?

I don't need to assume anything about Hezbollah using Lebanese as shields. They leave their munitions in civilian housings, they fortify themselves next to civilian buildings. Its not like Hezbollah has seperated themselves from the civilians. Far from it, instead they integrate with civilians (clothing, housing etc) so that they make EVERYONE around them a target in attempt to minimize exposure themselves.

Yeah Hezbollah are just really misunderstood, absolutely.
🙄

Essentially Hezbollah has made all of Southern Lebanon its base with its munition stock piles and "barracks" by incorporating themselves with civilians. Then running military operations out of it's "base" after being told to disarm themselves(a year ago) and attacking Israel.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Umm silly argument, because Hezbollah can't drop leaflets. And wtf is a leaflet anyway? Get the f*ck out of your house right now because we're going to blow it to the ground. We're very compassionate you see. And while you flee, we may or may not use our apache helicopters to blow your car up as well.

Hezbollah can't fight the way Israel does, because they don't have an air force Tard. If they fought like a battalion, they'd be dead within a day because they have no air cover. This is a resistance group. Just as any other resistance group, they have to hide. Think the french during WWII.

Hezbollah do care about their people. Again you have no clue what you're talking about. They've funded infrastrutures for their people inthe past and set up shelters during this crisis. If they didn't care about their people, they wouldn't be fighting, would they? Do you think they fight just for the hell of it?

...

Say that again and see if it makes any more sense the second time around.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
That was 2000 years ago. What a bright idea, let's all do the same.

We can give america back to the indians and you can f*ck off back to whatever hole you came out from ;P

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Umm silly argument, because Hezbollah can't drop leaflets. And wtf is a leaflet anyway? Get the f*ck out of your house right now because we're going to blow it to the ground. We're very compassionate you see. And while you flee, we may or may not use our apache helicopters to blow your car up as well.
Hezbollah can't fight the way Israel does, because they don't have an air force Tard. If they fought like a battalion, they'd be dead within a day because they have no air cover. This is a resistance group. Just as any other resistance group, they have to hide. Think the french during WWII.
Hezbollah do care about their people. Again you have no clue what you're talking about. They've funded infrastrutures for their people inthe past and set up shelters during this crisis. If they didn't care about their people, they wouldn't be fighting, would they? Do you think they fight just for the hell of it?
Say that again and see if it makes any more sense the second time around.

Next time I'll word it so you don't take me so literally. Hezbollah has the means of communicating to the outside world. Surprise. They can let Israel know what's coming.

Don't be evasive (no doubt you will continue to be). Just answer the question: What would you do? Simple enough (maybe not, considering you might be taking this too literally. It's just an example).

.

Originally posted by Mindship
Except mine reflects what's really going on...yours is wishful thinking as evidenced, for example, by the lack of Hezbollah rockets. Oops!

Sorry, with so little space and only drawing a few things, the damage done from rockets and the number of Isrealis killed are insignificant. Two orders of magnitude my friend.

If you think this is an even two sided conflict, your sick.

And it was about time someone counteracted that ignorant cartoon of yours. Neither of ours even depict Hezbollah.

Originally posted by Robtard
A fatal flaw in your cartoon... It is a known fact that Hezbollah has zero regard for civilians any civilians. Otherwise, they wouldn't store militia and munitions in apartment complexes, schools, hospitals etc. etc.

Funny thing too, your cartoon would suggest that Hezbollah are not terrorist, but soldiers trying to protect while the 'terrorist' Israel is targeting children. Last time I checked, Israeli religious leaders were not the ones brainwashing their youth into blowing themselves up in order to kil children for the promise of afterlife rewards (virgins).

Actually, youre dead wrong. Hezbollah built many of those schools and hospitals while the Lebanese governemnt was under Syria's thumb. Clearly they care for nothing except the destruction of Isreal. Get a life.

Isreal has killed many more children than Hezbollah has. If people are ignorant and want to believe in religion, thats their problem. Islam gives rewards in the afterlife just like any other religion. All have been co-opted for evil purposes, Chirstianity above all.

Isreal is doing just as much brainwashing as other states. And since the Lebanese governement is unable to respond (do they fight Isreal and respond to a war or fight Hezbollah and start a civil war) Hezbollah is the only force standing BETWEEN Lebanese civilains and Isreal. Hezbollah has opened a political goldmine of support, thanks to Isreal.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Umm silly argument, because Hezbollah can't drop leaflets. And wtf is a leaflet anyway? Get the f*ck out of your house right now because we're going to blow it to the ground. We're very compassionate you see. And while you flee, we may or may not use our apache helicopters to blow your car up as well.

:Laugh: very good my man. very good 👆

Originally posted by Alliance
...the damage done from rockets and the number of Isrealis killed are insignificant.

If you think this is an even two sided conflict, your sick.

Actually, youre dead wrong. Hezbollah built many of those schools and hospitals while the Lebanese governemnt was under Syria's thumb. Clearly they care for nothing except the destruction of Isreal. Get a life.

They sound more like a government than a terrorist group.

Originally posted by Mindship
Next time I'll word it so you don't take me so literally. Hezbollah has the means of communicating to the outside world. Surprise. They can let Israel know what's coming.

Don't be evasive (no doubt you will continue to be). Just answer the question: What would you do? Simple enough (maybe not, considering you might be taking this too literally. It's just an example).

No. You used the leaflet argument to show how compassionate Israel was. I responded to that argument. So no I wasn't taking it too litterally and no I wasn't being elusive. I was reponding to your post...

What would I do? What the hell does what would I do mean? If you mean if I was Olmet, then I wouldn't have started bombing lebanon first of all.

I will say why:

All you pro-Israelis always use the argument that they want to stop Katushyas landing in Northen Israel. But the Israelis have triggered this themselves by bombing Lebanon. They brought it down on themselves. Hezbollah are sending rockets in Israel in retaliation for missiles and bombs landing on their own territory.

Israel started bombing in retaliation for getting their soldiers kidnapped. Completely retarded, considering 700+ lives have been wasted, Israeli and Lebanese. I would have done the prisonner exchange. Had there been a prisonner exchange, there would be no deaths whatsoever. Now you will tell me "Yes but if they did that there would be more kidnappings." Well in that case, step up your boarder security so that it doesn't happen again. Less costly than a full blown military operation.

That's why this whole situtation is retarded. Both sides are so persuaded that they are in the right, that this could go on till the end of time. The UN are the only ones in a position to end it and have to step in now. Thank god the french actually have the good sense to see this.

Originally posted by $noopbert
They sound more like a government than a terrorist group.

In some ways they are. They are a UNIQUE terrorist group for sure.

They were formed in response to Isreals Invasion of Lebanon. The Lebanese governement wasn't capable of handling the situation then either.

Its sad really, to see countries push towards moderatism, and then only to have dreams of a MODERATE, stable, democratic Lebanese governemtne smashed by the state that would benefit most from that type of government.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
No. You used the leaflet argument to show how compassionate Israel was.

I don't think anyone is saying oh look at how compassionate Israel is, instead we are simply acknowledging the fact they make an effort to tell everyone (even warning the enemy) to leave to give civilians and Hezbollah a chance to evacuate. Hezbollah I'm afraid doesn't do that, over a leaflet, broadcast, siren etc ZERO warning from Hezbollah just direct assaults on Israel civilians.

All you pro-Israelis always use the argument that they want to stop Katushyas landing in Northen Israel. But the Israelis have triggered this themselves by bombing Lebanon. They brought it down on themselves. Hezbollah are sending rockets in Israel in retaliation for missiles and bombs landing on their own territory.

Are you the blind and jaded? Hezbollah assaulted Israel, bombing was in retalliation after the kidnapping and the MISSILE assault Hezbollah launched on Israel.

Well in that case, step up your boarder security so that it doesn't happen again. Less costly than a full blown military operation

Hezbollah was supposed to be disarmed over a year ago, it didn't happen so I guess you can say Israel now has to pay for what the Lebanese Gov't couldn't do and disarm Hezbollah themselves.

That's why this whole situtation is retarded. Both sides are so persuaded that they are in the right, that this could go on till the end of time. The UN are the only ones in a position to end it and have to step in now. Thank god the french actually have the good sense to see this.

The French have large investments in Lebanon of course they want everything to stop, I would too if I was France. The UN helped create Israel and yet Israel is stuck in a position that it faces constant threats from zealous religious groups bent on their total destruction and having to defend themselves, once again there are no DMZ's there are no UN security forces helping just border on border skirmish's.