Israel and Lebanon

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Hmm, so you don't actually read other people's posts in their entirety before you respond. And even when you do, you only do so selectively.

BBC World Affairs Editor, John Simpson:
"Hezbollah stores its rockets in densely populated areas, with the willing agreement of those who look after them, but they usually (though not always) fire them from open areas away from towns and villages."

Katyusha rockets are mobile short-range weaponry, they are mainly fired away from towns and villages.

If a rocket is stored in an apartment building with several civilian families dwelling within do you think the apartment building should be destroyed?

A list of targeted infrastructure within the first two weeks of the Israeli aerial bombardment.
[b]Airports
Beirut International
Qaleiat domestic
Rayak military
Ports
Beirut
Tripoli
Jounieh
Other transport
Lighthouse, Beirut
Bridges: 62
Fuel stations: 22
Overpasses: 72
Dams: 3
Roads: 600km
Military
Radar installations: 4
Army barracks: 1
Civilian
Private homes: 5,000
Commercial
Tissue paper factory, Bekaa
Bottle factory, Bekaa
Other businesses: 150
Communications
Hezbollah's al-Manar TV station, Haret Hreik, Beirut
MTC mobile phone antenna, Dahr al-Baidar
Utilities
Jiyeh power plant
Sibline power station
Sewage plant, Dair al-Zahrani

I'm not interested in whether or not you hope for world peace. This isn't the Miss Universe pageant. I asked you whether you think the probable result of these operations will be the elimination of Hezbollah.

And I'm not asking whether you know why it was created I'm asking from what it was created? [/B]

You asked questions, I answered them... Have the aerial bombardments destroyed Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel? So you think IDF ground forces are going to be able to eliminate Hezbollah? Do you know the basis from which the IDF was comprised 60 years ago? I answered these in the above post.

Yes, if it is a war and this is a war, the smart thing to do is destroy those rockets. If you were the citizen of a country being attacked and your military had the ability to destroy weapons that would be used against you, would you not demand they destroy said weapons before they destroy you? What is your point in asking such a ridiculous question?

What is your point in listing the attacks? The majority of those would be targets in any war. Remember, your enemy needs to move, supply itself, communicate etc. etc. etc.

Yes, I obviously think Israel can win, they have the military power to do so. Do I know with 100% certainty that they can, no, and that is why I said 'I hope they do." When did I say "World Peace."?

I must be misunderstanding the question... "From what it was created?" From people...?

Oh, Robtard needs his sleep, see you Monday my flower.

Originally posted by Robtard
You asked questions, I answered them... Have the aerial bombardments destroyed Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel? So you think IDF ground forces are going to be able to eliminate Hezbollah? Do you know the basis from which the IDF was comprised 60 years ago? I answered these in the above post.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, if it is a war and this is a war, the smart thing to do is destroy those rockets. If you were the citizen of a country being attacked and your military had the ability to destroy weapons that would be used against you, would you not demand they destroy said weapons before they destroy you? What is your point in asking such a ridiculous question?

Originally posted by Robtard
What is your point in listing the attacks? The majority of those would be targets in any war. Remember, your enemy needs to move, supply itself, communicate etc. etc. etc.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, I obviously think Israel can win, they have the military power to do so. Do I know with 100% certainty, no, and that is why I said 'I hope they do."

Originally posted by Robtard
I must be misunderstanding the question... "From what it was created?" From people...?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No you avoided them. I asked "Have the aerial bombardments destroyed Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel?" You responded "They have destroyed rockets." If I have asked, do you think Israel have destroyed rockets then you would have responded to a question. When one considers the magnitude and depth of Hezbollah attacks now as compared to since the Israeli bombardment began have the aerial bombardments destroyed Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel?

Interesting. So you believe killing several civilian families is legitimate in the destruction of a Katyusha rocket?

Yes I'm sure a tissue factory and the sewage plant is of huge strategic importance.

Then we have come full circle. Because you are deluding yourself.
Your knowledge of Middle Eastern history is lacking.

What is your point? The war is ongoing, do yo believe that Israel has one shot to destroy Hezbollah and if they fail in that attempt they should quit? It's not over yet and it is far from being over. Ask reasonable questions.

It isn't that black and white and you know it... To win a war you MUST destroy your enemies ability to wage war on you, as a sad byproduct, innocent people die, it happens in every war. But who's fault is it here in this situation? Israel for being forced to bomb an apartment complex with families inside in order to destroy weapons that will be used to kill its own people or Hezbollah for storing those weapons in the hopes that these human shields will prevent an attack?

Sure, think I am deluded, but at least I have the rational to realize what war is. Do you know with 100% certainty that Israel will lose?

My knowledge is lacking? You asked a crazy question. Fine, I'll take your bait. I do not know "from what it (IDF) was created", please enlighten me.

zzzzZ

Originally posted by Robtard
What is your point? The war is ongoing, do yo believe that Israel has one shot to destroy Hezbollah and if they fail in that attempt they should quit? It's not over yet and it is far from being over. Ask reasonable questions.

Originally posted by Robtard
It isn't that black and white and you know it... To win a war you MUST destroy your enemies ability to wage war on you, as a sad byproduct, innocent people die, it happens in every war. But who's fault is it here in this situation? Israel for being forced to bomb an apartment complex with families inside in order to destroy weapons that will be used to kill its own people or Hezbollah for storing those weapons in the hopes that these human shields will prevent an attack?

If Israel claimed it necessary to kill 5,000 civilians in Lebanon would you deem their actions justified and proportionate? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?

You fail to distinguish between civilian casualties as a result of indiscriminate IDF/AF conduct and disregard for foreseeable civilian loss of life in the utilisation of precision guided munitions, and unavoidable unforeseeable civilian casualties in a conflict.

Originally posted by Robtard
Sure, think I am deluded, but at least I have the rational to realize what war is. Do you know with 100% certainty that Israel will lose?

Originally posted by Robtard
My knowledge is lacking? You asked a crazy question. Fine, I'll take your bait. I do not know "from what it (IDF) was created", please enlighten me.
zzzzZ

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
When one considers the magnitude and depth of Hezbollah attacks now as compared to since the Israeli bombardment began have the aerial bombardments impaired Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel?
Irony. "It's not black and white." while at the same time "Israel can do whatever is necessary as long as there is some marginal militaristic possible use for the target, be it a road, an airport or a sewage plant."

If Israel claimed it necessary to kill 5,000 civilians in Lebanon would you deem their actions justified and proportionate? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?

You fail to distinguish between civilian casualties as a result of indiscriminate IDF/AF conduct and disregard for foreseeable civilian loss of life in the utilisation of precision guided munitions, and unavoidable civilian casualties in a conflict.
The word is rationale. Israel will declare an arbitrary victory at some point. It will not eliminate Hezbollah.The IDF was formed from Haganah, which had beginnings as a militia, and absorbed into it the splinter groups Irgun and Lehi, which both used political violence as a means to an end, among their actions the Deir Yassin Massacre of 1948.

So, in your mind, Israel should quit because Hezbollah hasn't fallen yet... Ooookayyyy... Great military tactics there. Imagine the world today if the Allies had given up because the Axis did not stop fighting after 1943...

I meant 'black and white' in the scenario you posed and you know this. Also, if you're going to quote me, do not use your own words, it's a lame tactic.

You did not answer the question... Who's fault is it here in this situation? Israel for being forced to bomb an apartment complex with families inside in order to destroy weapons that will be used to kill its own people or Hezbollah for storing those weapons in the hopes that these human shields will prevent an attack?

Israel isn't specifically targeting civilians unlike Hezbollah, your logic is flawed. Innocent people die in a war, especially in a war when they are being used as shields.

I can always tell how desperate someone is when they resort to pointing out typos. If it makes you feel better about yourself, I'll admit, I have piss poor grammar and I will continue to make errors. And you know this how for certain how? Remember, Israel has a chance, albeit a small one to lose, especially if this escalates and Syria and Iran get (officially)involved.

Ok, what is your point? Your bringing up actions from 60+ years ago. Do you believe that the current IDF is this same rag tag militia?

Originally posted by Robtard
So, in your mind, Israel should quit because Hezbollah hasn't fallen yet... Ooookayyyy... Great military tactics there. Imagine the world today if the Allies had given up because the Axis did not stop fighting after 1943...

Originally posted by Robtard
I meant 'black and white in the scenario you posed and you know this. You did not answer the question... Who's fault is it here in this situation? Israel for being forced to bomb an apartment complex with families inside in order to destroy weapons that will be used to kill its own people or Hezbollah for storing those weapons in the hopes that these human shields will prevent an attack?

If Israel claimed the deaths of 5,000 civilians in Lebanon were necessary would you deem their actions justified and proportionate? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?

Originally posted by Robtard
Israel isn't specifically targeting civilians unlike Hezbollah, your logic is flawed. Innocent people die in a war, especially in a war when they are being used as shields.

Tell me, disregarding public relations do you believe that the IDF/AF have a high regard for how many civilians die as "collateral damage"?

Originally posted by Robtard
I can always tell how desperate someone is when they resort to pointing out typos. If it makes you feel better about yourself, I'll admit, I have piss poor grammar and I will continue to make errors. And you know this how for certain how? Remember, Israel has a chance, albeit a small one to lose, especially if this escalates and Syria and Iran get involved.

The Israeli government's regular modus operandi is to retroactively redefine goals of military actions depending upon their outcome. The Israeli government with withdraw either ceding to international pressure or become entrenched in a stalemate losing domestic public favour and declare an arbitrary victory. They will not successfully eliminate Hezbollah.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ok, what is your point? Your bringing up actions from 60+ years ago. Do you believe that the current IDF is this same rag tag militia?

Originally posted by Robtard
Fair enough, what should Israel do then? Just stick out it's chest, suck up the attacks and be content with it's citizens getting slowly picked off a few at a time? Because , Hezbollah has no intent in stopping until Israel is completely gone.

See this is funny, becuase Isreal has said that they won't stop until Hezbollah is completely gone. Isreal also has terrorist policies, like targeted assassination and detaining officials from foreign governemnts.

Hezbollah was FORMED because Isreal invaded Lebanon. I can only imagine what new terrorist groups will form because of this conflict.

Isreal needs to restrain itself. A little retaliation would be fine, but they have gone past the point of insanity.

Isreals soldiers have been kidnapped before and Isreal has not responded militarily. Why this time? I don't have an answer.

I do know that Lebanon is being raped and regardless fo where Hezbollah is, Isreal is not going to defeat it. If it gets that bad (close to defeat), Hezbollah will simply attack from Palestine with hamas and from Syria.

I do no that almost all Lebanese likely hate Isreal's guts, the US's guts for giving Isreal a blank military check and the bombs to back it us, and Hezbollah will likely take control of the Lebanese government. Isreal has placed a one year old Lebanese governmnet between a rock and a hards place. If they haven't crushed it to death yet, they likely will soon.

Originally posted by Alliance
Isreals soldiers have been kidnapped before and Isreal has not responded militarily. Why this time? I don't have an answer.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Both Israel and Hezbollah. Although since you've stated the death of several families is an acceptable cost for the destruction of a Katyusha rocket I'm sure you only see Hezbollah to blame.

You do like to complicate issues and play with them, if hezbollah hide rockets in civilian establishments knowing Israel will attempt to destroy them who's at fault? The Gov't attacking a known threat to its country or the group hiding it's arms in civilian establishments knowing the danger it puts said civilians in?

T They will not successfully eliminate Hezbollah.

Of course not, Hezbollah is just a bunch of military folks from Syria and Iran mixed with religious fanatics from everywhere.

Hezbollah knows it cannot win a war with Israel so it has to play safe PR and play victimized and place Lebanon in danger to exact any sort of "victory" here. To think otherwise is pretty foolish.

Originally posted by Soleran
You do like to complicate issues and play with them, if hezbollah hide rockets in civilian establishments knowing Israel will attempt to destroy them who's at fault? The Gov't attacking a known threat to its country or the group hiding it's arms in civilian establishments knowing the danger it puts said civilians in?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Please point out where I initiate a comparison between the conduct of Israel's army and Hezbollah in order to try and imply that "Israel is as ruthless as Hezbollah."

To simply state that Israel's conduct is unbecoming wihout another source of reference I have only one alternative and thats to compare it to what you present, if that wasn't your intentions oh well it's how it came across to me.

Do you think it's wrong to criticize an army's conduct?
So do you believe an army is justified in whatever actions it deems necessary?

Nope as a matter of fact there is a critic for just about everything. However whenever I read critical discussions I typically look at who is critisizing and the amount of experience/knowledge they have in that arena.

No for instance, Germany WWII and the holocaust to far.

Who are they designed to protect? Do you think that it is impossible to undertake military operations without adherence to these laws?
Do you think that a nation's army should only be held to the same expectation of standard of conduct as a terrorist group?

The rules are designed to be a diplomatic shield, in my opinion.

I believe most of these laws are broken regularly by most if not all nations, they are simply designed for reasons of ettiquette for the masses in regards to war.

I believe most armies(and leaders) would prefer to conduct themselves above the behavior of terrorists, however this isn't always the case due simply to how the behaviour of the enemy dictates certain action be taken.

So, what did you feel would have been more appropriate action? What sort of time period would you thought fair to have it initiated? What sort of pre-cautionary procedures would have felt would be important to prevent this from happening again? How would you deal with Iran and Syria knowing that they train and supply Hezbollah? What is the value of Israel lost property and life while action is being taken to implement your plan and how does that get reconciled?

To all those who hold Israel responsible...

Hezbollah and Iran (at the very least) have stated publicly that the destruction of Israel is their Objective. Period. They are not interested in diplomacy or negotiations. Period.

Without going off on debatable history tangents or other distractions, just directly answer this question: What should Israel do?

Be realistic: Israel will not allow itself to be destroyed or be put in harm's way. It has also shown, repeatedly, a willingness to negotiate, including a two-state solution to the "Palestinian Problem," which the Palestinians have, repeatedly, rejected.

What can Israel do with enemies whose only interest is to kill Israel? What would You do if someone was out to kill you, and nothing was gonna change his mind or--short of killing that person--stop him?

If you go off an tangents/distractions, or go off criticizing my question, those of us who see the hostile Arab parties as responsible will conclude that you, in fact, agree with us.

What should Israel do?
Now is the time to Wow us with your wisdom.

Originally posted by Robtard
They didn't...

Actually they did.

It is claimed that everything started with the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers. We need to go back at least to June 9th when Israel shelled a beach in Gaza killing eight Palestinians and injuring 32 civilians, including 13 children. The dead included seven members of one family.

Don't believe it? Then read this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5065982.stm

This is what triggered Hamas to capture that first soldier. Hezbollah in solidarity with Hamas, kidnapped 2 soldiers. Remember, these two militant groups are fighting for the same thing. They're both wanting to gain back their land robbed from them by Israel, because the latter owned it 2000 years ago and the book says its their own.

But anyway, yes Israel did start the whole thing in this recent crisis. Not Hezbollah.

"So, what did you feel would have been more appropriate action?
What sort of time period would you thought fair to have it initiated?
What sort of pre-cautionary procedures would have felt would be important to prevent this from happening again?
How would you deal with Iran and Syria knowing that they train and supply Hezbollah?
What is the value of Israel lost property and life while action is being taken to implement your plan and how does that get reconciled?"

No military strategy alone is going to eliminate Hezbollah. Aerial bombardment of civilian infrastructure with no tangible extrapolations to Hezbollah should not have occurred/be occurring. Aerial bombardments with foreseeable and disproportionate civilian casualties should not have occurred/be occurring. Mobilisation of ground forces incurs a higher IDF cost but would restrict civilian casualties that have occurred due to aforementioned indiscriminate bombardment. The current military actions have been in the making for a long time.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=74450
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746309.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP

When one considers the magnitude and depth of Hezbollah attacks now as compared to since the Israeli bombardment began have the aerial bombardments impaired Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel?
If Israel claimed the deaths of 5,000 civilians in Lebanon were necessary would you deem their actions justified and proportionate? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?
Disregarding public relations do you believe that the IDF/AF have a high regard for how many civilians die as "collateral damage"?
Do you believe killing several civilian families is legitimate in the destruction of a Katyusha rocket?
What do you believe the outcome of the current situation will achieve?

"To all those who hold Israel responsible..."
I hold both parties in this conflict responsible for the foreseeable civilian casualties.
"It has also shown, repeatedly, a willingness to negotiate, including a two-state solution to the "Palestinian Problem," which the Palestinians have, repeatedly, rejected."
Yes, that's not misleading in the least.
"What can Israel do with enemies whose only interest is to kill Israel? What would You do if someone was out to kill you, and nothing was gonna change his mind or--short of killing that person--stop him?"
Where does Lebanon fit into this equation?
"If you go off an tangents/distractions, or go off criticizing my question, those of us who see the hostile Arab parties as responsible will conclude that you, in fact, agree with us."
Nice evasive conditional.

Originally posted by Soleran
You do like to complicate issues and play with them, if hezbollah hide rockets in civilian establishments knowing Israel will attempt to destroy them who's at fault? The Gov't attacking a known threat to its country or the group hiding it's arms in civilian establishments knowing the danger it puts said civilians in?

? ? ? In addition to that civilians aren't all blind to the fact the missiles are being stored there either so are the civilians also now placing themselves at known risk?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
"To all those who hold Israel responsible..."
I hold both parties in this conflict responsible for the foreseeable civilian casualties.
"It has also shown, repeatedly, a willingness to negotiate, including a two-state solution to the "Palestinian Problem," which the Palestinians have, repeatedly, rejected."
Yes, that's not misleading in the least.
"What can Israel do with enemies whose only interest is to kill Israel? What would You do if someone was out to kill you, and nothing was gonna change his mind or--short of killing that person--stop him?"
Where does Lebanon fit into this equation?
"If you go off an tangents/distractions, or go off criticizing my question, those of us who see the hostile Arab parties as responsible will conclude that you, in fact, agree with us."
Nice evasive conditional.

Distraction and evasion, as predicted. Next.

"What should Israel do?"

Originally posted by Mindship
Distraction and evasion, as predicted. Next.

"What should Israel do?"

What should the Lebanese do?

Originally posted by Mindship
To all those who hold Israel responsible...

Hezbollah and Iran (at the very least) have stated publicly that the destruction of Israel is their Objective. Period. They are not interested in diplomacy or negotiations. Period.

Without going off on debatable history tangents or other distractions, just directly answer this question: What should Israel do?

Be realistic: Israel will not allow itself to be destroyed or be put in harm's way. It has also shown, repeatedly, a willingness to negotiate, including a two-state solution to the "Palestinian Problem," which the Palestinians have, repeatedly, rejected.

What can Israel do with enemies whose only interest is to kill Israel? What would You do if someone was out to kill you, and nothing was gonna change his mind or--short of killing that person--stop him?

If you go off an tangents/distractions, or go off criticizing my question, those of us who see the hostile Arab parties as responsible will conclude that you, in fact, agree with us.

What should Israel do?
Now is the time to Wow us with your wisdom.

What would You do if someone came to your motherland, killed your relatives, treated you like a dog and forced you to leave your land? No wonder everyone in palestine hates Israel, same with Lebanon. You really assume that Israel bombs civilians because Arabs use them as human shields? If so then you are naive, they kill civilians because they don't care if they kill inocents or not, and they want people to be affraid of them and sometimes they kill just for fun.
They say they fight terrorists but that sounds stupid because they are terrorists themsevls, the differance is that they don't have to blow themselvs to kill dozens of people. They do NOT fight army, they kill families, kids and two israeli soldiers is just an excuse because there are thousands arabs in israel prisons.
So what should Lebanon do? Let them blow inocent people and lie that they "fight terrorism" or fight back?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Evasion of complicated underlying issues and attempt at minimalising the situation to black and white. "You're either with us, or your with the ter'rists."

What should the Lebanese do?

More evasion.
Just answer the question, give your opinion. That's all.
"What should Israel do?" *

* since you will no doubt continue to avoid answering the question, just assume after each of your evasions, my response is...
"More evasion. Next. What should Israel do?"
...until you do answer the question. Even "I don't know" at least would be honest.

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by Mindship
More evasion.
Just answer the question, give your opinion. That's all.
"What should Israel do?" *

* since you will no doubt continue to avoid answering the question, just assume after each of your evasions, my response is...
"More evasion. Next. What should Israel do?"
...until you do answer the question. Even "I don't know" at least would be honest.

Have a nice day.

What should Israel do? Use restrained, proportionate and discriminate assault so as to minimalise civilian and NGO casualty. Stop acting unilaterally. Comply with the UNSCRs it is in violation of. Cease settlement building and annexation of land, institutionalized discrimination amounting to apartheid, and belligerant occupation. Return to the pre-1967 borders.

Now answer my questions:
When one considers the magnitude and depth of Hezbollah attacks now as compared to since the Israeli bombardment began have the aerial bombardments impaired Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel?
If Israel claimed the deaths of 5,000 civilians in Lebanon were necessary would you deem their actions justified and proportionate? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?
Disregarding public relations do you believe that the IDF/AF have a high regard for how many civilians die as "collateral damage"?
Do you believe killing several civilian families is legitimate in the destruction of a Katyusha rocket?
What do you believe the outcome of the current situation will achieve?
What should the Lebanese citizens and government do?

Elaborate on the mentality behind this statement:
It has also shown, repeatedly, a willingness to negotiate, including a two-state solution to the "Palestinian Problem," which the Palestinians have, repeatedly, rejected.