Israel and Lebanon

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Did you not see the military analysts contrast of NATO's Serbia action and Israel's current action? Do you think that the increase in both depth and magnitude of Hezbollah attacks is an indication that Israel is accomplishing anything?

That is comparing apples to oranges... Israel does not have a clear target, Hezbollah is not a traditional army with uniforms that fights with conventional tactics, why can't you understand that.

Hezbollah are terrorist and they use terrorist tactics, which means disguising themselves as civilians, fighting out of and making bases out of civilian structures. This isn't an old school 'friendly' war where both parties agree to meet and duke it out in a certain location.

To answer your question, yes I do think Israel has accomplished something, they have damaged Hezbollah and killed many of its militia. What do you expect Israel to do? Stop and retreat because Hezbollah is fighting back? What would that accomplish, Hezbollah has no intent in stopping either way, they want Israel completely destroyed.

Quotes from Hassah Nasrallah (Secretary General of Hezbollah):

However, there is no legal and legitimate state called Israel.

I am against any reconciliation with Israel.

I would consider the liberation of the territories a victory, while confronting the normalization of relations with Israel.

That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle.

Originally posted by Alliance
A straw man is when you set up a agrument and then "knock it down"

This allows you to "prove" something, but not really prove anything at all that actually relates to the argument.

Now. Isreal is way over the line. Honestly, I think they have recently earned every rocket that Hezbollah fires at them. Isreal bombe bridges, apartment buildings, government offices, airports, UN workers, relif routes, everyhting. Its clearly not Hezbollah, its about Isreal having a giant stick up its arse and levelling Lebbanon.

When all is said and done, there will be a regional war, massive suffereing, Lebanons fragile governement will be destroyed and replaced by Hezbollah. Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran will be all the stonger, moderate Islamic governemnts will have harder times controllign extrimists and justifying they're relationship with the US, terrorism will increase, and the region will be more dnagerous than ever.

Sounds like a plan. THANKS ISREAL!

Fair enough, what should Israel do then? Just stick out it's chest, suck up the attacks and be content with it's citizens getting slowly picked off a few at a time? Because , Hezbollah has no intent in stopping until Israel is completely gone.

Originally posted by Robtard
That is comparing apples to oranges... Israel does not have a clear target, Hezbollah is not a traditional army with uniforms that fights with conventional tactics, why can't you understand that.

Hezbollah are terrorist and they use terrorist tactics, which means disguising themselves as civilians, fighting out of and making bases out of civilian structures. This isn't an old school 'friendly' war where both parties agree to meet and duke it out in a certain location.

To answer your question, yes I do think Israel has accomplished something, they have damaged Hezbollah and killed many of its militia. What do you expect Israel to do? Stop and retreat because Hezbollah is fighting back? What would that accomplish, [B]Hezbollah has no intent in stopping either way, they want Israel completely destroyed.

Quotes from Hassah Nasrallah (Secretary General of Hezbollah):

However, there is no legal and legitimate state called Israel.

I am against any reconciliation with Israel.

I would consider the liberation of the territories a victory, while confronting the normalization of relations with Israel.

That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle. [/B]

"If the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years." Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, IDF Chief of Staff.

Not a single analyst believes Israel actually capable of eliminating Hezbollah completely to my knowledge. If they intend to occupy Lebanon for another 18 years, they will only create more of the disaffected, dissolutioned and/or fanatical. They have already done so with their current actions.

Am I meant to be surprised by the words of the leader of a named terrorist group? Did you actually read the quotes of the former leaders of the nation of Israel?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
A number of uniformed Lebanese sodiers have been killed - the same soldiers Israel wants to reign in Hezbollah. Ambulances. Journalists. Convoys of civilians leaving areas after being told to leave. The UN. Children. Many of the targets that Israel has attacked via aerial precision guided munitions have no legitimate military application by anyone's account but Israel's. While Hezbollah does not distinguish between civilian and military lives, the IDF/AF does distinguish between civilian and military lives, it simply has little regard for non-Israeli (Jewish) civilian lives in a sociopathic mindset. Do you actually believe that the current Israeli actions have no punitive and vengeful intent? They are exercising collective punishment upon the nation of Lebanon, ordinary Christian, Sunni, Shia civilians, and Hezbollah militants alike.

"If the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years." Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, IDF Chief of Staff.

Not a single analyst believes Israel actually capable of eliminating Hezbollah completely to my knowledge. If they intend to occupy Lebanon for another 18 years, they will only create more of the disaffected, dissolutioned and/or fanatical. They have already done so with their current actions.

Am I meant to be surprised by the words of the leader of a named terrorist group? Did you actually read the quotes of the former leaders of the nation of Israel?

Innocent death is a part of war, it happens in all wars. I'm not saying you have to like it or be happy with it, but it is fact. So Israel is sociopathic.... That's tells me a lot....

And I ask you again, what are they to do, Hezbollah has no intent in a mutual peace? You're happy to call Israel blood thirsty, yet you do not show a reasonable way for them to accomplish a peaceful solution. If they pull back, Hezbollah attacks, if they attack, Hezbollah attacks and Israel is the bad guy.

Also, read up some on Hezbollah, they are not some rag tag groups of guys hiding out in Lebanon. They have a very powerful presence and influence in Lebanon.

Originally posted by Robtard
Fair enough, what should Israel do then? Just stick out it's chest, suck up the attacks and be content with it's citizens getting slowly picked off a few at a time? Because , Hezbollah has no intent in stopping until Israel is completely gone.

Why did Israel begin this affair then?

Originally posted by Robtard
If you're unable to 'see' sarcasm, it's not my fault and that's Mr. Tard to the likes of you.

Getting mixed-up again? 'Sarcasm' and 'idiocy' = different.

Originally posted by Robtard
Innocent death is a part of war, it happens in all wars. I'm not saying you have to like it or be happy with it, but it is fact. So Israel is sociopathic.... That's tells me a lot....

Originally posted by Robtard
And I ask you again, what are they to do, Hezbollah has no intent in a mutual peace? You're happy to call Israel blood thirsty, yet you do not show a reasonable way for them to accomplish a peaceful solution. If they pull back, Hezbollah attacks, if they attack, Hezbollah attacks and Israel is the bad guy.

Originally posted by Robtard
Also, read up some on Hezbollah, they are not some rag tag groups of guys hiding out in Lebanon. They have a very powerful presence and influence in Lebanon.

Originally posted by Robtard
Did you miss 'Jerusalem Post' and the citings by 'CNN'??? By anyhow, I do not think you care to reserach, you'll only read media that's biased to your point of view.

Did i miss the Jerusalem Post ? Oh, you mean after the Qana incident ? No I did not.

I didnt either miss the dirt anti-semitic individuals armed with websites and other newspapers, are throwing back at the Jews claiming that it was an 'Intentional attack on Lebanese Civilians'.

Nor did I miss that report that a Rocket Launcher was intentionally placed in Qana by Hezbollah's enemies within Lebanon's political parties.

Do I have to labour the point out to you ? Right. Here it goes again:

Israel have Precision guided missiles that are supplied by the US.
Hezbollah Do Not have that technology and the precision of their rockets is shit. FFS, Katyushas are WWII Rockets !

In logistical terms a Katyusha is very inaccurate. The fire-power supplied by Washington DC should be tip-top.

So the question I ask again, is the Israeli Intelligence so shit that they do not have the basic mental capacity to programme a highly-accurate missile ? Because I would expect inaccuracies from a guerilla faction, but certainly not from a nation backed up by the US.

Originally posted by crazy
Why did Israel begin this affair then?

They didn't...

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Getting mixed-up again? 'Sarcasm' and 'idiocy' = different.

So I take it you have nothing of value to add to the discussion? Because, what you think of me is irrelevant.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Classically sociopathy was characterized as a disorder in which one is solely self-interested with little or no regard for the effects of their actions on others. The analogy is relatively appropriate. There is unavoidable civilian casualty, and there is civilian casualty due to indiscriminate use of force. The majority of the current is the latter. If you expect anything but condemnation for both sides of this conflict, if you expect praise or approval for the current Israeli actions you are sorely deluding yourself.
Hezbollah beginnings are as a militant group fighting Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon, it claims the Shebaa farms as part of Lebanon. This land is actually part of the Golan Heights, Syrian land annexed by Israel. Continued annex of of land will continue to create the displaced, disaffected and disillusioned that groups like Hezbollah seek. There is no "good guy" there is a terrorist group intentionally killing civilians as a means to a political end and a nation's army bombing another nation with little or no regard for civilians as a means to a political end.
You're claiming a greater grasp of the geopolitics of the Middle Eastern region?

You didn't answer my question, what is Israel to do? Or, what as Israel would you do to be the 'good' guy.

I advised you to read up on Hezbollah and it's intents, it wasn't a claim.

Originally posted by GCG
Did i miss the Jerusalem Post ? Oh, you mean after the Qana incident ? No I did not.

I didnt either miss the dirt anti-semitic individuals armed with websites and other newspapers, are throwing back at the Jews claiming that it was an 'Intentional attack on Lebanese Civilians'.

Nor did I miss that report that a Rocket Launcher was intentionally placed in Qana by Hezbollah's enemies within Lebanon's political parties.

Do I have to labour the point out to you ? Right. Here it goes again:

Israel have [b]Precision guided missiles that are supplied by the US.
Hezbollah Do Not have that technology and the precision of their rockets is shit. FFS, Katyushas are WWII Rockets !

In logistical terms a Katyusha is very inaccurate. The fire-power supplied by Washington DC should be tip-top.

So the question I ask again, is the Israeli Intelligence so shit that they do not have the basic mental capacity to programme a highly-accurate missile ? Because I would expect inaccuracies from a guerilla faction, but certainly not from a nation backed up by the US. [/B]

You poor soul, am I making you labor? Sorry 🙁

So Hezbollah is armed with sh!t weapons, the intent to kill civilians is still there, whats your point?

To answer your question, yes, I would think they could programme a missile. But I ask you this in return, when an apartment complex, a hospital or another other structure being used by Hezbollah and civilians are living in such structures along side the militia, how is this missile supposed to only kill Hezbollah militia and not the civilians?

Originally posted by Robtard
You didn't answer my question, what is Israel to do? Or, what as Israel would you do to be the 'good' guy.

I claim nothing, I advised you to read up on Hezbollah and it's intents.

I know Hezbollah has a high level of strength in southern Lebanon, and has influence in Beirut. Which only serves to add to the hypocrisy of Israel claiming to be following UNSCR 1559, while itself in violation of dozens of resolutions and protected by the U.S. veto from dozens more, as an additional pretext to war/invasion. The blaming of the Lebanese government in full knowledge that the Lebanese armed forces are incapable of quelling Hezbollah, is further added to by the killing of Lebanese armed forces by Israeli precision guided aerial munitions.

Now how about you go back through the thread and answer the numerous direct questions I've posed to you that you've neglected or avoided answering?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
What is Israel to do? Concede several points of contention to which it holds no legitimacy for one thing.

I know Hezbollah has a high level of strength in southern Lebanon, and has influence in Beirut. Which only serves to add to the hypocrisy of Israel claiming to be following UNSCR 1559, while itself in violation of dozens of resolutions and protected by the U.S. veto from dozens more, as an additional pretext to war/invasion. The blaming of the Lebanese government in full knowledge that the Lebanese armed forces are incapable of quelling Hezbollah, is further added to by the killing of Lebanese armed forces by Israeli precision guided aerial munitions.

Now how about you go back through the thread and answer the numerous direct questions I've posed to you that you've neglected or avoided answering?

Concede? You mean commit suicide. Hezbollah will not accept a peace as long as Israel exist. And I meant 'rational' action by Israel. How do you find even ground with an enemy that will only accept your destruction as the terms?

It's simple, in your eyes Israel can do no right, you admit that Hezbollah has a strong presence in Lebanon, but if Israel attacks, they're in the wrong. Unless you can tell me how Israel is supposed to remove Hezbollah without having any collateral damage, your argument is flawed.

I have?

Originally posted by Robtard
Concede? You mean commit suicide. Hezbollah will not accept a peace as long as Israel exist. And I meant 'rational' action by Israel. How do you find even ground with an enemy that will only accept your destruction as the terms?

Originally posted by Robtard
It's simple, in your eyes Israel can do no right, you admit that Hezbollah has a strong presence in Lebanon, but if Israel attacks, they're in the wrong. Unless you can tell me how Israel is supposed to remove Hezbollah without having any collateral damage, your argument is flawed.

Originally posted by Robtard
I have?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I wasn't referring to the Lebanon crisis, I was referring to the greater picture. The continued annexation of land, the institutionalized apartheid, the belligerent occupation. These are things that create those whom Hezbollah leaders seek.
Your basing this on the premise that you believe Hezbollah attacks exclusively from civilian buildings and vicinities, and that you believe that all the targets that Israel has hit with its precision guided munitions have been military targets. Neither of these is accurate. Here I'll restate one of my questions for you:
Do you think aerial bombardment is going to eliminate Hezbollah?
Look harder.

Hezbollah does attack and operate out of civilian structures, that is a fact and unless I'm wrong, there is no 'Hezbollah Hideout'. No, I never said that Israel has only hit military targets. Unfortunately for Israel, it is forced to attack civilian targets, since as noted numerous times, Hezbollah uses these to operate out of. To fight, Hezbollah has to be able to do two things, supply itself with weapons/terrorist and move. Unless they have some other way of moving and resupplying that doesn't require roads, bridges, highways and airstrips, these become targets.

No, aerial bombardment will not eliminate Hezbollah by itself. What Aerial bombardment does is help destroy your enemies ability to wage war on you, Israel will have to launch a ground offense to finish the job. Why do you think the US Air Force and the RAF bombed Berlin and other German cities during WWII? It's called fighting a war with the intent to win.

Say harder again...

Oh, you didn't tell me how Israel is supposed to remove Hezbollah while not having Lebanese collateral damage.

Originally posted by Robtard
Hezbollah does attack and operate out of civilian structures, that is a fact and unless I'm wrong, there is no 'Hezbollah Hideout'. No, I never said that Israel has only hit military targets. Unfortunately for Israel, it is forced to attack civilian targets, since as noted numerous times, Hezbollah uses these to operate out of. To fight, Hezbollah has to be able to do two things, supply itself with weapons/terrorist and move. Unless they have some other way of moving and resupplying that doesn't require roads, bridges, highways and airstrips, these become targets.

You have a very cozy way of making light of Israel's disproportionate bombing of civilians: "Well, the big bad terrorists live next to civilians, so it's tough shit for them, they all must die...". Very well thought-out. Or not...

Originally posted by Robtard
No, aerial bombardment will not eliminate Hezbollah by itself. What Aerial bombardment does is help destroy your enemies ability to wage war on you, Israel will have to launch a ground offense to finish the job. Why do you think the US Air Force and the RAF bombed Berlin and other German cities during WWII? It's called fighting a war with the intent to win.

And on it goes...Do you not see how ridiculous you sound? Your whole argument is based on an idea that 'collateral damage' is permissible when it is suffered by Lebanon, but the same actions are terrorist acts when aimed at Israel! Hahahaha...

Originally posted by Robtard
Oh, you didn't tell me how Israel is supposed to remove Hezbollah while not having Lebanese collateral damage.

Are you naive enough to believe that Mossad was unable to retrieve a few soldiers, so the only alternative was to totally destroy the infrastructure of Lebanon? Oh, dear...

Originally posted by Robtard
Hezbollah does attack and operate out of civilian structures, that is a fact and unless I'm wrong, there is no 'Hezbollah Hideout'. No, I never said that Israel has only hit military targets. Unfortunately for Israel, it is forced to attack civilian targets, since as noted numerous times, Hezbollah uses these to operate out of.

No, aerial bombardment will not eliminate Hezbollah by itself. What Aerial bombardment does is help destroy your enemies ability to wage war on you, Israel will have to launch a ground offense to finish the job. Why do you think the Us Air Force and the RAF bombed Berlin and other German cities during WWII? It's called fighting a war with the intent to win.

Say harder again...

Oh, you didn't tell me how Israel is supposed to remove Hezbollah while not having Lebanese collateral damage.

BBC World Affairs Editor, John Simpson:
"Hezbollah stores its rockets in densely populated areas, with the willing agreement of those who look after them, but they usually (though not always) fire them from open areas away from towns and villages."

Katyusha rockets are a outdated but highly mobile form of weaponry.

You're trying to compare this to WWII? When you dismissed an analysts comparison of these actions to the most analogous in recent times, those of NATO in Serbia. Go look at the contrast again.

Have the aerial bombardments destroyed Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel? So you think IDF ground forces are going to be able to eliminate Hezbollah? Do you know the basis from which the IDF was comprised 60 years ago?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Exercise of restraint, using discriminate targeted attacks, be they aerial or ground attacks. Alternatively covert operations.
Either the most advanced military technology and Mossad intelligence is incredibly overrated or Israel holds little regard for the civilians in the territories in which it strikes and/or are using collectivist punishment as a tactic.

BBC World Affairs Editor, John Simpson:
"Hezbollah stores its rockets in densely populated areas, with the willing agreement of those who look after them, but they usually (though not always) fire them from open areas away from towns and villages."

Katyusha rockets are a outdated but highly mobile form of weaponry.

You're trying to compare this to WWII? When you dismissed an analysts comparison of these actions to the most analogous in recent times, those of NATO in Serbia. Go look at the contrast again.

Have the aerial bombardments destroyed Hezbollah's ability to launch rocket attacks on Israel? So you think IDF ground forces are going to be able to eliminate Hezbollah? Do you know the basis from which the IDF was comprised 60 years ago?

And while they're exercising restraint and trying to to pick out the Hezbollah militia who not only dress in local garments but surround themselves with civilians for the intent of 'human shields', Hezbollah launches attack after attack... Illogical.

I agree that Katyusha rockets are highly mobile and I know Hezbollah stores them among civilian areas, that's the reason Hezbollah has been effective and while Israel is forced to target roads, highways, bridges, airports and civilian structures like apartment buildings . Thanks for proving my point. 🙂

No, I am not comparing this to WWII, I was using what the Allies did to the Axis with aerial bombardments to demonstrate why aerial bombardments are not only effective in winning a war but a necessity.

Well, they have destroyed launchers, killed Hezbollah militia and limited their movement and that is the purpose. Do I think Israel will eliminate hezbollah, I hope they do; having a terrorist organization gone would benefit the world as a whole. Same reason why any sane country has a military; to protect itself and to combat aggression. Why do you think they were created?

Originally posted by Robtard
And while they're exercising restraint and trying to to pick out the Hezbollah militia who not only dress in local garments but surround themselves with civilians for the intent of 'human shields', Hezbollah launches attack after attack... Illogical.

No, I am not comparing this to WWII, I was using what the Allies did to the Axis with aerial bombardments to demonstrate why aerial bombardments are not only effective in winning a war but a necessity.

Well, they have destroyed launchers and they have killed Hezbollah militia, that is the purpose. Do I think Israel will eliminate hezbollah, I hope they do; having a terrorist organization gone would benefit the world as a whole. Same reason why any country has a military; to protect itself and to combat aggression. Why do you think they were created?

BBC World Affairs Editor, John Simpson:
"Hezbollah stores its rockets in densely populated areas, with the willing agreement of those who look after them, but they usually (though not always) fire them from open areas away from towns and villages."

Katyusha rockets are mobile short-range weaponry, they are mainly fired away from towns and villages.

If a rocket is stored in an apartment building with several civilian families dwelling within do you think the apartment building should be destroyed?

A list of targeted infrastructure within the first two weeks of the Israeli aerial bombardment.
Airports
Beirut International
Qaleiat domestic
Rayak military
Ports
Beirut
Tripoli
Jounieh
Other transport
Lighthouse, Beirut
Bridges: 62
Fuel stations: 22
Overpasses: 72
Dams: 3
Roads: 600km
Military
Radar installations: 4
Army barracks: 1
Civilian
Private homes: 5,000
Commercial
Tissue paper factory, Bekaa
Bottle factory, Bekaa
Other businesses: 150
Communications
Hezbollah's al-Manar TV station, Haret Hreik, Beirut
MTC mobile phone antenna, Dahr al-Baidar
Utilities
Jiyeh power plant
Sibline power station
Sewage plant, Dair al-Zahrani

I'm not interested in whether or not you hope for world peace. This isn't the Miss Universe pageant. I asked you whether you think the probable result of these operations will be the elimination of Hezbollah.

And I'm not asking whether you know why it was created I'm asking from what it was created?