Saesee Tiin & Kit Fisto vs. Exar Kun

Started by Motoko Sama7 pages

That's all fine and dandy, GM, but my argument was proven. Nothing you said is supported by the comic in the least bit. It's really as simple as that, but for the sake of getting the last word in...

No matter how many times you call it a fallacy, that doesn't make it so. If it were to have been a fallacy, I would have had to say that Crado was definitely exceptional because Sylvar and Exar were, however I said probably and reminded you that it was my opinion that you are completely blowing out of proportion.

No, you made your argument based off it being "likely that Crado was exceptional, given that Sylar and Exar were" - that is a fallacy as I've said, plus even when I point out to you that it is invalid reasoning, you continue to use it.

You were the one that displayed illogical thinking with your completely invalid analogy -

How was my analogy invalid exactly? You've said it, but yet to actually explain it.

devoting your whole life to your students training, teaching them everything you know and working with them closely is completely different from teaching in a classroom situation - you failed to grasp that and thus your analogy was invalid.

No, you've failed to grasp what I've said throughout this entire discussion. You've also failed to prove your side.

However it is not like my opinion is totally unsupported, it would make sense that Crado was at least not too far behind Sylvar and that he was still exceptional (in comparison to his era) as why exactly would Vodo teach three students when one was so far behind the others?

That assertion, like everything you say, begs for proof. You need to prove that Crado was actually close in terms of skill to either Sylvar or Kun (in which you can't because of narration, but...).

It would completely disrupt his training and hold his other students back.

Again, I'll just point you to the narration:

I'd like to remind you that Exar as a padawan while being Vodo's best ever student wasn't leagues above Sylvar, she was able to hold her own against him in a sparring match and get the better of him.

Yes, now tell me - what in the hell does that have to do with anything? Sylvar may be able to keep up, but Crado - as acknowledged by himself and the omniscient narrator - is "no match for the fighting skills of Exar Kun", indicating Crado is far out of his league.

Vodo is a great teacher. He trained Kun who was extremely great even as a jedi. His Tedryn Holocron was considered one of the most valuable pieces of jedi history by the disciple in KOTOR2, and it is heavily implied throughout the comic.

Yes, now tell me - what in the hell does that have to do with anything? His holocron? Irrelevant (and what are you even talking about "most valuable"?).

Vodo is definitely a great teacher.

Yes, now tell me - what in the hell does that have to do with anything? I could just as easily say he focused more on the likes of Exar Kun than either Sylvar or Crado. For such a good teacher, I can't see why one student (Sylvar) wouldn't doubt herself, but the other (Crado) would if he wasn't far behind Sylvar - who you claim "put up a good fight". Wait, that's pretty weird....

it would make sense that Crado was at least not too far behind Sylvar

Sylvar, she was able to hold her own against him in a sparring match and get the better of him.

If Crado's not too far behind, why is he "no match" for Exar Kun exactly?

I already proved that Sylvar was far from mediocre and an exceptional jedi knight in a dabate which you stopped posting in and lost.

You mean in a debate in which I still have the last post, lol.

Ok Mokoto, you're just being ignorant

Please, GM, spare me the stupid insults when you admit yourself you don't have any evidence, but refuse to accept defeat, and cannot form a viable argument. You've also made claims that you've yet to prove up on.

so I'll give you a real life analogy. Let's say that you're being privately taught Mathematics by a school tutor with your two best friends. Now let's say that you and one of your friends are incredibly smart, while the other is a dumbass. Let's also say that this tuition is extremely important as-well. Do you understand how impossible that would work out to be? Your tutor would constantly have to explain things to the lesser of her students, thus holding you and your smart friend back and jeopardizing your personal tuition which is extremely important. I'm kind of tired and I don't know if it was the best analogy to offer, however it's perfectly valid and supports my point.

Wow, GM, horrible analogy. You're still arguing with narration, which I'll just post again...and as it seems to be, again and again:

In case you fail to realize what it says (as seems to be) it says "But Crado knows his own worth -- he is no match for the fighting skills of Exar Kun".

And here's another one then: Arca Jeth trained Tott "Small Fry" Donetta, Cay "I get my arm chopped off every comic" Qel-Droma, and of course Ulic "Prodigy" Qel-Droma. From what we've seen in the Freedon Nadd Uprising, and Tales of the Jedi I would conclude that Ulic is far above Cay. So, it seems just because your being taught with someone, doesn't mean you have to be good.

Sylvar clearly did doubt her abilities,

Yes, GM, she and Vodo both clearly doubted her ability despite Vodo asking Sylvar to take on Kun because he thinks she is a match for him:

"If will is half the battle, then Sylvar has more than her share. Lover of Crado, she will take special pleasure in defeating Exar Kun" - Yep GM, I clearly see Sylvar doubting her abilities. She never doubts her abilities, in fact, from what the omniscient narrator says it seems quite the contrary.

why else would she have lashed out in anger?

She lashed out for a reason, she was being disrespected by Exar Kun, unless of course, you're going to explain these:


EXAR KUN: It's time you learned that animal Jedi are no match for humans!
SYLVAR: You insult the Cathar! Many great Jedi Masters have come from my world!
NARRATION: Sylvar fails Master Vodo's test...when she gives vent to instinctive rage!

Seems she gave into her rage because of Exar Kun exampling the equivalent to racism, here though, it's specieism (or something), plus it says instinctive - meaning:

in·stinc·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-stngktv)
adj.
Of, relating to, or prompted by instinct.
Arising from impulse; spontaneous and unthinking: an instinctive mistrust of bureaucrats.

Yep, those two pages of the book showed me Sylvar doubts her skills!

Get real, GM, none of your assertions so far have been supported by the comic. You're clearly lying and/or making stuff up.

While she tried to put on a brave face and tried to act as if she was ready and confident, she clearly wasn't.

See above. Because of what we've seen in the comic, and because of the only logical explanation for Sylvar attacking Exar Kun (racist comment), I can assume you are lying and/or making stuff up.

I'd suggest you stop doing that, as it only hurts your side when someone can counter said bullshit.

And I suppose that Crado was incredibly weak willed (turning to the dak side so easily for instance), however losing to Exar Kun doesn't mean that you suck.

And? Crado getting his ass handed to him doesn't speak well at all, especially not good for your claims because he was described by the omniscient narrator as "no match for Exar Kun".

And the rest of your ridiculous argument (that Crado is any good) begs for proof. Proof that:

a) You haven't provided.
b) Doesn't exist.

The thing is, I know that my assumptions are not concrete enough to win a debate, and that is why I have said many time that I don't wish to continue this but you keep on replying to earlier points which are quite frankly just wrong. The thing is, whether my opinion is right or wrong, it has no relevance to the topic at hand. I mean I thought we were supposed to be discussing Tinn and Fisto vs. Kun?

And...? Kun vs. Tinn and Fisto has been decided since the first poster: Kun wins with no problems in ten seconds. What more is there to discuss exactly?

Erm no Mokoto, I was saying tha my original point was me just voicing an opinion and not so much making an argument. However you blew it out of proportion and turned it into an argument. And check back to my first post if you want to see my original opinion.

You wanted people (Lightsnake) to agree with you. I simply replied to what your initial post was, and corrected your claim:

You can't deny that he was probably one of the most powerful knights in the series though.

That was you making a claim that he was "probably one of the most powerful" and that "you [Lightsnake] can't deny it" - then I responded to that basically saying "How do you figure that exactly?" and showing Crado sucks and denying it (or actually disproving your theory rather). Then you took it upon yourself to reply, in which you didn't have to, and I replied to that because it was wrong (had statements/thoughts that were wrong), and so on and so forth.

And the reason I continued posting was because a few of your rebuttals were quite frankly wrong and fallacious themselves and I was just pointing that out to you.

Sorry, but my argument was actually sound. You say it is fallacious, but cannot point them out nor respond to them with logical reasoning. Your argument (and that's what it was an argument) was full of fallacies, and really - since when do you need to have the username "IKC" to post fallacies? Is that the standard now?

GM, you've provided your opinion and pure speculation while Sama has provided a complete argument, so how are you going to say that you've proven her wrong? Last time I checked, fact>opinion. And there are indeed a lot of logical fallacies that you are committing.

Exactly. Facts supported by the comic > GM's baseless speculation. Logic supported by the comic > GM's baseless speculation. Really the only thing he does is say "No, I proved you wrong because even though my argument is devoid of any logic, I pwned you" and claim that I committed fallacies, no logic in my claims, despite me using scans from the comic, and actually having a factual argument for my side.

Whatever. Fine, I lose. There's no dishounour in that. It was a pretty hard topic for me to argue. Anyway the score's 1-1 between us now Mokoto right 😆 ? However I really didn't go by any logical fallacies in that debate, and while the analogy that I used was quite silly, it was still valid. And there were instances where you used illogical thinking too Mokoto. I've already shown you which ones.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Whatever. Fine, I lose. There's no dishounour in that.

You sound like Crado...

While it's true there's no dishonor losing to me, if you were to lose to someone like...Numan or Blak Fox (or even Hokage), there IS dishonor. Thankfully all of them are banned though.

And just to go back on topic: Exar Kun decimates them in about .43 seconds (time it takes to lift his hand) if he decides to use the Force. If he decides to use a lightsaber, it will take 4.6 seconds (2.5 seconds to initiate them, 2.1 seconds to kill them). Any problems?

Actually I did that on purpose.
Exar Kun can't use the force...

.........

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
.........

?

He meant offensive force powers in this fight.

That's what I meant too.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's the problem lightsnake, I offer arguments and instead of you offering arguments, all you get is sources from other people, authors, quotes, etc... Horrible.

The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith book confirms Lightsnake.

One of the producers asked why Mace "brought the B-team to arrest Sidious" in response to how easily the three of them died. And, Lucas responded that you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor.

Not Anakin, Dooku, Assaj, Depa, or anyone else.

Anyways, Kun obliterates these two.

Escape, what was your previous comment relevant to?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, what was your previous comment relevant to?

You and Lightsnake were arguing on the first page about how only "Yoda and Mace" can compete with Palpatine. He confirmed it; you denied it. I just proved it.

Where did I deny it?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Show me where GL says that... Because GL apparently also stated Anakin was on par with Mace, and Mace and Dooku were supposed to be on par... So that doesn't say much..

Here.

That was a statement regarding saber combat.. We've had some of you on this forum confirm that Dooku and Anakin were on par with Sidious in saber abilities.

Big deal. Wanna argue with Lucas?

Lightsnake, it was my personal opinion, you still lost the argument as usual.