Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace>Sidious, but sidious is able to go toe to toe with Yoda?Ever hear of the Any Given Sunday rule? A loss hardly means someone's automatically inferior...unless you're trying to claim Mace>Yoda
Yes, because in the novel I believe Yoda disarmed Sidious.. So yes, Sidious is able to go toe for toe with Yoda on an unfair advantage. And it's more than like that Mace>Yoda in saber abilities. And no, you logic doesn't work just because you're a sidious fan boy. With your logic I can state that Dooku>Anakin, Maul>Obiwan, Malak>Revan, Vodo>Kun. Your logic is ridiculous and is pretty much destroyed instantly.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Um, no, that never in the novel...and even before they get on the platform, they're going at it evenly.If Mace>Yoda in saber abilities, why is Yoda stated to be the best saber duelist and has always defeated Mace when they've dueled?
I said it is possible that Mace=Yoda in saber abilities. And the fact that Mace defeated Sidious, and Yoda stalemated him on even ground, is just that. Your A>B>C arguments don't work.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
So, is Desann superior to Luke? Is Kueller superior to Luke? Leia superior to Beldorian? is Jaina superior to Tsavong Lah? Is Nelani Dinn superior to Lumiya?And 'useless' Jedi? Those were only three of the best Jedu duelists the order'd ever seen, nice try.
What exactly did you just explain? Mace overpowered Sidious, Mace clearly showed he was superior to Sidious in lightsaber combat, there is absolutely NOTHING that suggests otherwise. Obiwan defeated Anakin but we know Anakin was more powerful because he was pretty much in control, therefore Your proof is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Irrelevant misdirection. On skills alone, they were equal until Mace used his shatterpoint ability.
Do you understand the concept of irrelevant misdirection or do you use it because you've seen me use it? My point wasn't irrelevant because it was in regards to your "any given sunday" logic. You can use all the excuses that you want, whether if was Mace's Vaapad or "shatterpoint", but he still proved to be superior to Sidious on saber combat.
The movie was inconclusive as to what exactly Mace used to eventually overcome Palpatine during the lightsaber duel. The novelization counts as a canon source - as does the LFL approval.
Therefore, DS, it is a fact that Mace required the use of the Shatterpoint ability to overcome Palpatine in his lightsaber duel. Furthermore, as you yourself apparently have little knowledge about that particular ability, stop pretending to be an expert on it.
Without that shatterpoint ability, it is inconclusive to determine who would have overcame who in that duel, especially when we have already racked up evidence that indicates that Palpatine may have been manipulating the entire scene.
a. Sidious managed to destroy the other three compatriots, who - as Lightsnake has already restlessly argued - were some of the Jedi Order's greatest swordsmen - whilst fending off Windu.
As to the ease in which they lost, the answer is very simple. As Lucas has confirmed, you need to be either Yoda or Mace Windu to compete with Palpatine. Now, DS, I want that to sink in.
b. Mace certainly did not seem to have control of the entire fight, as I recall. Palpatine put Mace on the defensive early on, forcing him out of the chamber and into the public office.
However...
I disagree with Lightsnake on one issue. The kick was a valid maneuver, as this simply wasn't a fencing match. It was a fight to the death. However, if we're having a gun fight, and I deck you with my fist, that doesn't make me the better shooter. Just the better fighter.
As for the other mini-issues:
a. Dooku vs. Anakin.
Remember a few things. Lucas, the script, the commentary, and several other sources state that Anakin was just superior - as does Palpatine himself in the movie. However, Anakin isn't leagues above him. Furthermore, what solidifies this victory is that before Anakin used physical force, he was dominating the last part of the fight.
b. Maul vs. Obi-Wan
Your point is moot because Maul did possess superior lightsaber and fighting abilities. To make it plain, he caught Maul off guard with the assistance of a bit of luck.
c. Malak vs. Revan
I assume you refer to when Malak used his ship to betray Revan. Hardly a worthy source. Malak required a ship to do it while Revan was preoccupied with the Jedi. Hardly a "duel".
And, finally -
Yoda, Sidious, and Mace are the three top dogs of the PT. Lucas's comment that "only Yoda and Mace can compete with the Emperor" suggests that all are roughly on par, and the strongest of their time.
Escape, I hope you're not actually thinking that Sidious manipulated the entire fight. It specifically states in the ROTS novel that Sidious was OVERPOWERED by Mace. This little rumor is nothing more than speculation on part of Sidious fanboys.
And I never argued about shatterpoint or whatever the hell it is, I argued that Mace won the fight clearly.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, I hope you're not actually thinking that Sidious manipulated the entire fight. It specifically states in the ROTS novel that Sidious was OVERPOWERED by Mace. This little rumor is nothing more than speculation on part of Sidious fanboys.And I never argued about shatterpoint or whatever the hell it is, I argued that Mace won the fight clearly.
I never said that I thought it. I said that there is evidence to support it. Which there is. I'll be back later.