Originally posted by jinzinAre you saying circumstances and PIS are mutually exclusive? 🤨 PIS is circumstance in which the plot dictates a character be portrayed as not fighting to the extent of their abilities in order to make a less powerful character seem a challenge/even win.
dude.. you asked if these things could happen again.... since every event was a circumstantial one they are bad examples of how to draw pis...PIS should be circumstance free or it's just subject to plot device... plot devices being involved doesn't dictate them to be "stupid".
Again i feel my answer using the wolverine example is sufficient enough... your examples are not free of circumstance so they are subject to circumstance.. could they happen in a vs. forum fight? probably not... obviously... because in a vs. forum fight the circumstances which allowed the events to happen in the first place have been taken away... is that simpler to understand?
The Wolverine example isn't even PIS it's SvFL.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotno it's not.. SvFL is another CIRCUMSTANTIAL BATTLE... spiderman would have never stood a chance were it not for the circumstances that took place... firelord lowering himself to spidey's level and trying to engage him without using the advantage of his powerset for instance...
Are you saying circumstances and PIS are mutually exclusive? PIS is circumstance in which the plot dictates a character be portrayed as not fighting to the extent of their abilities in order to make a less powerful character seem a challenge/even win.The Wolverine example isn't even PIS it's SvFL.
the wolverine example IS PIS because it would never happen in a vs. forum.. even under the same circumstances (being blown to hell by nitro) he wouldn't come back from an admantium skeleton here.... it's the pinicle of PIS at it's finest... the circumstantial examples you used are not... is batman using prep to take out a superior foe PIS? even though prep was used?
Originally posted by jinzinThe forum rules aren't very accurately named.
no it's not.. SvFL is another CIRCUMSTANTIAL BATTLE... spiderman would have never stood a chance were it not for the circumstances that took place... firelord lowering himself to spidey's level and trying to engage him without using the advantage of his powerset for instance...the wolverine example IS PIS because it would never happen in a vs. forum.. even under the same circumstances (being blown to hell by nitro) he wouldn't come back from an admantium skeleton here.... it's the pinicle of PIS at it's finest... the circumstantial examples you used are not... is batman using prep to take out a superior foe PIS? even though prep was used?
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics.
Spiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career.
If anything Spider-Man vs Firelord was CIS.
Personally Im still sitting back here thinking about the spiderman vs firelord fight. If I remember right Spiderman was wearing the Venom suit then. Which increases his base strength, speed, agility, etc. For example Eddie Brock is a lot stronger and faster than his base form thanks to the venom suit. However even after increasing brocks strength it is still only just stronger than current spidey.
HOwever spidey with the symbiote would be physically increased exponentially. He didn't even realize how strong or fast he had gotten (if i remember right the SMvsFL was when spiderman had symbiote but didn't realize it was evil yet) And firelord in that fight came down arrogantly, he didn't expect a surprise attack like that.
I may be wrong, but i'd say if eddie is a 20-30 ton with venom on... then spiderman with venom on was probably in the 60-80 range or even more considering how he manhandled rhino and other bricks.
Unless I'm remembering it wrong, I don't have the comic in hand, but i remember it being firelord coming down, and spiderman in his black suit raining hell as fast as he could at an unsuspecting firelord.
Originally posted by rotiart
Personally Im still sitting back here thinking about the spiderman vs firelord fight. If I remember right Spiderman was wearing the Venom suit then. Which increases his base strength, speed, agility, etc. For example Eddie Brock is a lot stronger and faster than his base form thanks to the venom suit. However even after increasing brocks strength it is still only just stronger than current spidey.HOwever spidey with the symbiote would be physically increased exponentially. He didn't even realize how strong or fast he had gotten (if i remember right the SMvsFL was when spiderman had symbiote but didn't realize it was evil yet) And firelord in that fight came down arrogantly, he didn't expect a surprise attack like that.
I may be wrong, but i'd say if eddie is a 20-30 ton with venom on... then spiderman with venom on was probably in the 60-80 range or even more considering how he manhandled rhino and other bricks.
Unless I'm remembering it wrong, I don't have the comic in hand, but i remember it being firelord coming down, and spiderman in his black suit raining hell as fast as he could at an unsuspecting firelord.
Nope, it wasn't a symbiote suit. ❌ It was just his regular black suit.
Originally posted by rotiart
Personally Im still sitting back here thinking about the spiderman vs firelord fight. If I remember right Spiderman was wearing the Venom suit then. Which increases his base strength, speed, agility, etc. For example Eddie Brock is a lot stronger and faster than his base form thanks to the venom suit. However even after increasing brocks strength it is still only just stronger than current spidey.HOwever spidey with the symbiote would be physically increased exponentially. He didn't even realize how strong or fast he had gotten (if i remember right the SMvsFL was when spiderman had symbiote but didn't realize it was evil yet) And firelord in that fight came down arrogantly, he didn't expect a surprise attack like that.
I may be wrong, but i'd say if eddie is a 20-30 ton with venom on... then spiderman with venom on was probably in the 60-80 range or even more considering how he manhandled rhino and other bricks.
Unless I'm remembering it wrong, I don't have the comic in hand, but i remember it being firelord coming down, and spiderman in his black suit raining hell as fast as he could at an unsuspecting firelord.
What the hell you are talking about. The symbiote NEVER NEVER NEVER increased Spiderman´s powers in the comics. This was just used in the 90s animated series.
Second the black suit wasnt the symbiote in that fight, just a black costume.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The forum rules aren't very accurately named.Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics.
Spiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career.
If anything Spider-Man vs Firelord was CIS.
✅
Captain America has beaten more poweful opponents HUNDREDs of time, so it cant ALWAYS be PIS or CIS all the time, if he keeps doing it thezn its not CIS or PIS allthe time.
xmarksthespots we have already discussed iceman vs cap, he was battling scarlet witch at the sametime, so could you please stop using that example.
No I'm telling you when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline it is PIS.
Deathstroke/Flash is an example of PIS when taking into account both characters abilities.
The versus forum is to debate what would happen if two characters fight on even footing in standard conditions removing PIS and SvFL, and when specified CIS.
The basic premise of your posts is that when two characters fight in a comic, regardless of how badly written the fight or that when one takes into account the abilities of the losing side the winner would never/hardly ever win, that this outcome must still be the accepted outcome of the fight on the versus forum.
Some examples of this style of argument you've presented from the Namor thread:
Originally posted by Alfheim
Quote Dark Crawler
<Do you realize that he would have no choice? All Iceman would need to do is to think it.>So why did Iceman get his *** handed to him then?
If I were to do what youre doing I would just ignore any example that anybody gives me from the marvel universe eventhough it contradicts what im saying.
Originally posted by Alfheim
H.S.6
<What the hell is Cap going to do to? His blood would be frozen at Iceman's whim>So.....why....did......cap.....kick....his...behind.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah well Cap was mindcontrolled when fought Iceman and Beast and he almost killed them both! So mind control does not neccessarily make you weaker.
When one looks at the abilities of both characters one can surmise the following:
Who is faster?
Spider-Man
Who is stronger?
Spider-Man
Who is more agile?
Spider-Man
Who is more durable?
Spider-Man
Who heals faster?
Spider-Man
Who has better reflexes?
Spider-Man
Who is precognitive?
Spider-Man
Who is more intelligent?
Spider-Man
Who has a long range attack that can immobilise their opponent?
Spider-Man
Who has an invisible stealth mode?
Spider-Man
Who has a fighting style based on said super-strength, -speed, -reflexes, -agility and precognition?
Spider-Man
Mull that all over.
And then answer this simple question put forward to you:
Give me a plausible and probable means by which Captain America wins? What does he do?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No I'm telling you when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline it is PIS.
What part of Cap keeps fighting people on the similar power level of Spidey and keeps winning or doing well therefore it cant be PIS or CIS all the time dont you understand?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Deathstroke/Flash is an example of PIS when taking into account both characters abilities.
[/B]
I said Cap has never punched anyone equivalent to Flashs speed in the Marvel Universe...so...that...is...a bad...example.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Some examples of this style of argument you've presented from the Namor thread:If all you're going to do is rigidly adhere to the outcome of badly written fights and insist that they would be the outcome here in an obstinate manner, I don't think you're understanding the purpose of the forums. There is a distinction between what occurs in the comics and what occurs in the forums.
[/B]
Ok I get it now....so when Dark Crawler and others give me pics showing Namor beating Cap and Iceman doing crazy stuff what your telling me is that I should have rejected it? So its ok for you to read the Namor respect thread and deduce what Namor can do, but I should ignore what Cap can do? Ok got it double standards.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
When one looks at the abilities of both characters one can surmise the following:
Who is faster?
Spider-Man
Who is stronger?
Spider-Man
Who is more agile?
Spider-Man
Who is more durable?
Spider-Man
Who heals faster?
Spider-Man
Who has better reflexes?
Spider-Man
Who is precognitive?
Spider-Man
Who is more intelligent?
Spider-Man
Who has a long range attack that can immobilise their opponent?
Spider-Man
Who has an invisible stealth mode?
Spider-Man
Who has a fighting style based on said super-strength, -speed, -reflexes, -agility and precognition?
Spider-ManMull that all over.
And then answer this simple question put forward to you:
Give me a plausible and probable means by which Captain America wins? What does he do? [/B]
Well for starters he is not more intelligent, especially not in combat. In terms of reflexes and speed he is not much faster than cap. As said before Beast said that Cap was almost as fast he was and Beast is similar Speed to Spidey. The fact that has a long range attack dont mean a damn thing if Cap is slightly slower than Spidey and know him real well he can anticipate what he going to do. The only thing that he surpases Cap in is strength and maybe he could use the stealth mode to suprise him.
So basically Spidey is only far superior in strength but Cap is far superior in fighting skills so Cap could still win.
ehm no Spidey is faster than Steve, he just doesnt use his powers very good. Even in all these years Peter is just a guy with powers, he never really trained his powers or skills.
Thats why better H2H fighters give him trouble.
To have better physical abilities doenst mean you can trash less powerful opponents. Of course the bigger the gap between a person and other person is the harder it is for someone with less power to beat someone with more power.
The gap between Spidey and Cap is not to big and not to little.
Caps peak human that means Spidey will feel his attackes.
But Cap must attack and hit all the time to put Spidey down.
The problem is Spidey wont stand still and let Cap punch him all day.
So if Spidey makes some good shots and attacks he can surely take Cap faster out.
Spidey would take the majority but Cap would give him every time a hard fight. Unless Peter this dumbass start to learn how to fight.
Peter has more than enough power but not the skills.