Marka Ragnos versus Shimrra

1) Ragnos has demonstrated the ability to do none of that.

Ragnos was feared by Sadow. Sadow was able to carry a 200lbs + worth of bricks using the force and hurl it effortlessly at Kressh. Oh lets not forget that this is the same Sadow that was able to cause a star to go Supernova as well as develop techniques that can blast through the armour of ancient Sith Worms and tear through temple walls.

2) Shimrra could easily move out of the way, he's fast as all hell.

And so is a force enhanced Sith Lord who has defeated a master sith magician and ruled a civilization where only the strong thrive.

3) Sadow, someone we can agree is at least in the same group as Ragnos, when in a duel, managed to throw a single brick with the force as an attack, nothing impressive at all.

He was able to cause a star go Supernova as well as develop techniques that can blast through the armour of ancient Sith Worms and tear through temple walls.

4) Amulet blasts, uber or not, are direct force attacks. They'll effect Vong, along with their technology to no degree. This means thud bugs, blast bugs, and plasma eels would all hit Ragnos... yup, in the face. Also:

So you assume that a race that had the power to develop techniques that include giant blasts of highly volatile force energy and capability of destroying stars could not erect a simple barrier? That is illogical. It is basically a more complicated version of force telekinesis, but it can be done considering all things the ancient sith were capable of.

- Ragnos has never shown us any use of force powers... at all.

We have seen techniques used by Exar Kun and Naga Sadow, both of whom were weaker than Ragnos.

Ragnos has never shown to have this type of amulet.

He did, and even if he did not that only proves my point even more that Ragnos would win. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, even with their gizmos, still desperately feared him.

I'd LOVE to see where you got that number...he tossed a brick, wow! NOTHING we haven't seen basic force users do!

LOVE to see where you got that 'master magician' BS from. I also want to know how Ragnos won.

Ooooh, no, sorry, his SHIP made the star go supernova...its 'electrical weapon'...and no, Exar first used that blast. Irrelevant as it wouldn't work on Shimrra.

Prove this barrier existed or drop the argument. Prove it could affect something force users are incapable of affecting. Ok? Ok.

Erm, according to ragnos's creator, Exar>Ragnos. Why do people keep ignoring this?

Prove Ludo feared Ragnos. Naga didn't seem to care as he was too busy with his experiments and Ludo adored him. There was no fear from Ludo. Prove Ragnos had that kind of amulet and that that blast wasn't unique to Exar

Ragnos isn't the God you think he is, got it? Tom Veitch confirmed Palpatine's knowledge>The Ancients. Marka is an overrated, overhyped enigma and hardly the godly fighter/force user you think he is.

LOVE to see where you got that 'master magician' BS from. I also want to know how Ragnos won.

Lord Simus was a master sith alchemist and magician. Ragnos still leveled him and reduced him to a head.

Nonetheless Simus managed to sustain himself. Really, you would argue that Ragnos defeating a figure that possessed such power is not an accomplishment?

Ooooh, no, sorry, his SHIP made the star go supernova...its 'electrical weapon'...and no, Exar first used that blast. Irrelevant as it wouldn't work on Shimrra.

Proof that it was his ship, considering it was his eyes and amulets glowing with the power of the darkside when he generated the electrical energy required to cause a STAR to go supernova.

And you are missing the point. If Sadow could use this ability to destroy stars and Kun could use his ability to create giant blasts of volatile force energy, then do you think that indirectly erecting a simple barrier is a lot of hard work?

Prove this barrier existed or drop the argument. Prove it could affect something force users are incapable of affecting. Ok? Ok.

Use the force to indirectly create a barrier.... Raise the eart beneath him to cover him from fire. Ragnos did not remain a Sith Lord in an age where the strong ruled because because he was slow.

Erm, according to ragnos's creator, Exar>Ragnos. Why do people keep ignoring this?

I wan't to see the proof. No offense, but I have seen plenty of evidence to support that desperate debators will resort the little white lie or twisting the truth.

Prove Ludo feared Ragnos. Naga didn't seem to care as he was too busy with his experiments and Ludo adored him. There was no fear from Ludo.

Let us see, even when Ragnos was sick from old age, Ludo and Sadow still refused to defeat Ragnos. Yes this is considering an age where defeating a Sith Lord would bring untold renokwn to any capable of doing so.

If Sadow was able to kill Kressh, he would do it to establish his worthiness.

Also how do you come to the conclusion that Kressh adored Ragnos? In a civilization where hatred and fear are the primary forces of existance, why would Kressh love?

Prove Ragnos had that kind of amulet and that that blast wasn't unique to Exar

Analyze the facts. Sadow made the amulets that Kun used. Ragnos was superiour to Sadow, as the latter was too scared to kill Ragnos even while the DLOTS was unwell.

Ragnos isn't the God you think he is, got it? Tom Veitch confirmed Palpatine's knowledge>The Ancients. Marka is an overrated, overhyped enigma and hardly the godly fighter/force user you think he is.

I would like to see Tom come to the forums, and tell it to me directly, then I'll believe you. Like I said, I wan't to see the proof. "No offense snake, but I have seen plenty of evidence to support how desperate debators will resort to the little white lie or twisting the truth."

Prove Simus was a master anything? No? Ok.
A random priestess was sustained as a head, too...point being?

Proof it was his ship> Chronology, weapons and technology, DS Sourcebook...and oh yeah, barriers that've never been shown before and wouldn't work with Vong tech anyways are so connected, wow!

This is just getting SAD...proof he can raise earth as a barrier BEFORE this projectile hits him? It'll take time...and a force barrier wouldn't work....you know, THE FORCE DOESN'T WORK ON THE YUUZHAN VONG.

Oh, give me a ****ing break...I posted the emails here several times. Nai's seen them, Escape's seen them, Traya's seen them...this is just a case of...what's the word....denial?

Right, prove Ragnos was sick with old age. And look at Ludo's dialogue, kay?He idoloizes Ragnos, even when he's dead he praises his name. And prove Sadow could kill Kressh, a more politically powerful Sith Lord with full support and patronage from Marka? mmmhmm, I thought so.

Prove Ragnos was unwell. Prove he died of old age. Prove his death was expected. Right, more BS

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image3ix7.jpg

HM!
I've shot Ragnos to hell and back, he's not all that and ninety nine percent of the bullshit about him is based on outright falsehoods

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And no, Vengeance. Vong tech is unaffected by the force. period. And it still requires concentration to create illusions, so sorry. And yeah, yammosks see through illusions. Period. As the force can't affect them, they see right through it.

Sith magic is an unknown property, that doesnt work like normal force attacks. Like I said before, it would require little concentration to make only a few dozen illusions. It seems you just completely ignored my argument.

Oh great, Yammosk technology can see through illusions simply because you say it does. Great argument.

Prove Simus was a master anything? No?

He was a dlots who existed in a time where only the strongest lived. He used his powers in the force to sustain himself as a head.

Ok. A random priestess was sustained as a head, too...point being?

Explain why other more powerful force users such as Darth Vader, darth maul, and Dooku could not use their powers to sustain themselves, unless this random sith witch possesses greater strength than all of Palpatine's apprentices. Oh I guess the technique is not as easy to replicate as you initially assumed.

Proof it was his ship> Chronology, weapons and technology, DS Sourcebook...

Which contradicts with the two sources of information that have been shown to us as well! I have first hand evidence to support the truth behind my claims. The scan I showed where Sadow was generating the energy required to destroy the star via himself and in tales of the Jedi comic strip where Sadow was shown to have destroyed the star by himself as well. You cannot come to the conclusion that it was his ship, since according first hand from the comics, it was not so.

and oh yeah, barriers that've never been shown before and wouldn't work with Vong tech anyways are so connected, wow!

Of course, because if he was able evoke fear in people who could generate beams of energy and destroy stars, he could not create a barrier from the ground underneath him. Nor is he able to dodge simple projectiles 🙄 . Right lightsnake, please friend, don't be daft.

This is just getting SAD...proof he can raise earth as a barrier BEFORE this projectile hits him? It'll take time...and a force barrier wouldn't work....you know, THE FORCE DOESN'T WORK ON THE YUUZHAN VONG.

Why would he not be able to dodge the projectile? How did Luke dodge all these things? How did Luke manage to pull out of it alive. Ohhh it becomes clear now! He used the force!

Oh, give me a ****ing break...I posted the emails here several times. Nai's seen them, Escape's seen them, Traya's seen them...this is just a case of...what's the word....denial?

You mentioned that Palpatine was the most powerful by ROTS, which was flat out untrue. Why should I believe this?

Right, prove Ragnos was sick with old age. And look at Ludo's dialogue, kay?He idoloizes Ragnos, even when he's dead he praises his name. And prove Sadow could kill Kressh, a more politically powerful Sith Lord with full support and patronage from Marka? mmmhmm, I thought so.

Ludo praised Ragnos because he was afraid of him. You're deductions are far from being logical. Are you saying DLOTS Ludo Kressh valued love and kindness? Oh look everyone, Lightsnake is saying in an age of hatred and fear, Ludo was driven by kindness. Ludo is driven by hatred, ambition and fear. His honeyed words are if anything, a result of his desperate fear of Ragnos, even after death!

Please argue with the picture. They are both frightened of Ragnos, even while the Sith Lord is all but a phantom

Prove Ragnos was unwell. Prove he died of old age. Prove his death was expected. Right, more BS

Let's see... Being feared by both Sadow and Kressh while they were fighting, and also said to have ruled for over a century. They were both bowing to Ragnos when he appeared as a ghost, and Ludo was scared enough to observe the proper burial rights.

HM!
I've shot Ragnos to hell and back, [/B]

Only in YOUR mind Lighsnake.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Simus was a master anything? No? Ok.
A random priestess was sustained as a head, too...point being?

Proof it was his ship> Chronology, weapons and technology, DS Sourcebook...and oh yeah, barriers that've never been shown before and wouldn't work with Vong tech anyways are so connected, wow!

This is just getting SAD...proof he can raise earth as a barrier BEFORE this projectile hits him? It'll take time...and a force barrier wouldn't work....you know, THE FORCE DOESN'T WORK ON THE YUUZHAN VONG.

Oh, give me a ****ing break...I posted the emails here several times. Nai's seen them, Escape's seen them, Traya's seen them...this is just a case of...what's the word....denial?

Right, prove Ragnos was sick with old age. And look at Ludo's dialogue, kay?He idoloizes Ragnos, even when he's dead he praises his name. And prove Sadow could kill Kressh, a more politically powerful Sith Lord with full support and patronage from Marka? mmmhmm, I thought so.

Prove Ragnos was unwell. Prove he died of old age. Prove his death was expected. Right, more BS

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image3ix7.jpg

HM!
I've shot Ragnos to hell and back, he's not all that and ninety nine percent of the bullshit about him is based on outright falsehoods

Is that email supposed to mean anything? Lol. Tom Veitch thinks it was Lucas' intention ?

And your arguments are getting ridiculous. Your asking us to prove that Ragnos is capable of a simple force barrier? When his inferior Sadow was capable of creating vast armies from his imagination, and blowing up stars?

Not like this is hard. Big deal, we see weakling Sith Lords a lot and a minor priestess sustains herself as a head. Next feat! And proof it wasn't Sith biology. Now.

It contradicts nothing, sorry! Electrical weapon, that's canon and you have NO defense except what you believe so give it up. The canon has spoken and you, sir, are wrong. States it was an electrical weapon and Sith technology and you've got your interpretation, END OF STORY.

Prove barriers exist. Now.

Because Luke's much stronger than Marka, probably faster and better period. Oh, and Luke thought he could've gone farther if he used the Force to push himself.

Actually the New Essential Chronology states that by ROTS, Sidious WAS the strongest Dark Lord. I posted the email for you, so right now, you have nothing.

Proof Ludo was afraid of him. Ludo berates Naga for disrespecting Ragnos and shows nothing but praise and worship of him, Nothing approaching fear. Oh, and Naga badmouths Ragnos when he's a ghost, yeah, THAT'S fear!

I'm sorry, I think I asked you to prove Ludo was scared and how Ragnos died. You've failed in both respects. Ludo never shows any fear. Even when Ragnos is long buried he continues to praise him. Where's the fear? That's RIGHT, it doesn't exist! And afraid? sadow tells him to go away and let them solve their own problems and when he's gone says it takes more than a ghost to make him forget emnities....that's reeeeal fear.

And nope, sorry, your god's not all you've made him out to be and HIS CREATORS are siding against you...sorry.

and Lol, shut your fanboy mouth, Vengeance. tom also said Yoda is definitely on top next to Exar and the Ancients. I think I'll trust him, especially as he worked with Lucas. And Yammosks are stated to see through illusions and the force. They can even detect force sensitives. Wait...could this mean your gods of the Ancients just AREN'T all that?

and time to prove this force barrier exists and can affect the Vong, kids!

Originally posted by Lightsnake

and Lol, shut your fanboy mouth, Vengeance. tom also said Yoda is definitely on top next to Exar and the Ancients. I think I'll trust him, especially as he worked with Lucas. And Yammosks are stated to see through illusions and the force. They can even detect force sensitives. Wait...could this mean your gods of the Ancients just AREN'T all that?

Im no fanboy, I dont even like the ancients. But when you guys start saying that Shimmra would defeat Ragnos, thats where I draw the line.

"Is that email supposed to mean anything? Lol. Tom Veitch thinks it was Lucas' intention ?"

Its specifically stated that Yammosks can see through sith magic and illusions? RLY? Give us the proof if you have it.

Umm, they see through force illusions. Crack open the guide to alien species. They also detect force sensitives. Pretty sure they do this a few times in the Luceno books, too.
More to the point, why would Ragnos be able to do this? It takes time to call out illusions, which is where Quey'Tek comes in...you need to affect an opponent's mind with the force

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Umm, they see through force illusions. Crack open the guide to alien species. They also detect force sensitives. Pretty sure they do this a few times in the Luceno books, too.
More to the point, why would Ragnos be able to do this? It takes time to call out illusions, which is where Quey'Tek comes in...you need to affect an opponent's mind with the force

WTF?

Quey'Tek is force concealment. It has nothing to do with illusions. I dont see why getting into Shimmras mind would be necessary, because the illusions arent just illusions, Sadow made them real.

Umm, no he didn't. You can't make illusions real...they're just illusions.
And illusions tend to take time. Shimrra isn't going to be watching politely

Not like this is hard. Big deal, we see weakling Sith Lords a lot and a minor priestess sustains herself as a head. Next feat! And proof it wasn't Sith biology. Now.

It's funny how you fail to mention that if the ability is so easy, why wouldn't other powerful Sith Lords (all of whom I am certain are stronger than this priestess) replicate the feat?

Hold on, you are making an assumption that it was Sith Biology, and now you are asking me to prove it! No no no no Lightsnake, you have got it all wrong. You prove to ME.

Even if it is sith biology, *bling bling Ragnos* you win! You are able to survive wounds that would easily have felled Skywalker or Sidious.

It contradicts nothing, sorry! Electrical weapon, that's canon and you have NO defense except what you believe so give it up. The canon has spoken and you, sir, are wrong. States it was an electrical weapon and Sith technology and you've got your interpretation, END OF STORY.

Right Lightsnake, deny the fact that the comic strips are also canon... Of course, whatever Lightsnake pulls out must be official canon! Sadow glows with the dakside and energy is generated to destroy a star. Other holocrons further prove that it was by Sadow, not his ship.

Prove barriers exist. Now.

You want me to prove whether Jedi cannot re-arrange materials with telekenisis. I reccommend you go out and watch a movie called "Star Wars "

Because Luke's much stronger than Marka, probably faster and better period. Oh, and Luke thought he could've gone farther if he used the Force to push himself.

Asserted AND unproven.

Actually the New Essential Chronology states that by ROTS, Sidious WAS the strongest Dark Lord. I posted the email for you, so right now, you have nothing.

Convienient that Kevin J Anderson states that it was not a direct reference to force abilities.

Proof Ludo was afraid of him. Ludo berates Naga for disrespecting Ragnos and shows nothing but praise and worship of him, Nothing approaching fear. Oh, and Naga badmouths Ragnos when he's a ghost, yeah, THAT'S fear!

Lightsnake, you are not talking logically. I have asked before and I ask again: why would Kressh value love?

I love how you haven't addressed my point

Are you saying DLOTS Ludo Kressh valued love and kindness? . Ludo is driven by hatred, ambition and fear. His honeyed words are if anything, a result of his desperate fear of Ragnos, even after death!

I'm sorry, I think I asked you to prove Ludo was scared and how Ragnos died.

I have but it seems you did not understand. If I repeat it enough, maybe you will decide to read it.

Let's see... Being feared by both Sadow and Kressh while they were fighting, and also said to have ruled for over a century. They were both bowing to Ragnos when he appeared as a ghost, and Ludo was scared enough to observe the proper burial rights.

Not to mention evidence by Traya on the matter, a Jedi historian who actually lived 1000 years after the events of the great hyperspace war (and Ragnos). Show me proof that Ragnos was actually killed by someone. Otherwise, address my point on why the two stopped dueling when Ragnos appeared, and also why they were bowing.

You've failed in both respects. Ludo never shows any fear. Even when Ragnos is long buried he continues to praise him. Where's the fear? That's RIGHT, it doesn't exist!

Right so he was driven by love... I suppose the entire basis behind the Sith is wrong because lightsnake wants to win an argument.

And afraid? sadow tells him to go away and let them solve their own problems and when he's gone says it takes more than a ghost to make him forget emnities....that's reeeeal fear.

He puts away his sword, and bows down. Furthermore he appears frightened. Afterwards he shuts up and listens to Ragnos.

And nope, sorry, your god's not all you've made him out to be and HIS CREATORS are siding against you...sorry.

LOL you are calling me a Ragnos fanboy when you are clearly in love with Sidious? Keep it up Snake.

and time to prove this force barrier exists and can affect the Vong, kids!

I love how this guy does not seem to listen to the fact that I said Ragnos can create an indirect barrier. Vengeance brings up a point about illusions, tell me exactly how would Shimrra be able to see through it?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Umm, no he didn't. You can't make illusions real...they're just illusions.
And illusions tend to take time. Shimrra isn't going to be watching politely

The material begs to differ. And like I said before, a few dozen illusions wont take very much concentration at all.

OH, right...mmhmm. Once again, this's been done before. And possibly because Simus had time to set it up before he died. Like Dathka Graush.

Noone claimed the comic wasn't canon. There's no contradiction. Your interpretation is wrong and the canon says what happened. so end of story.

Prove barriers exist

Oh, right...you mean I was just talking to TV about power, I ask him how Yoda stacks up and he says Yoda is definitely on top, two sources call Palpatine the strongest sith in history by ROTS (DE sbk and NEC_ You have,...what exactly? When asked who the STORNGEST Sith Lord is, KJA said Palpatine and Exar would have to fight....hmmm

Y'know, prove to me NOW that love was alien to the ancients. Ragnos was described as being admired, Simus clearly cared for Naga and Ludo WORSHIPPED Ragnos. Simus's first concern after a big attack? "Naga Sadow, old friend! Are you hurt?"
The Sith MOURN Simus's death, did you miss that? Maybe you miss how Ludo, when having no reason to be fearful of Marka when he's DEAD respects and honors him, furiously rebuking Naga for defiling his memory...or how the Sith race worshipped and loved King Adas...

Gimmie a break, fear? Prove it was fear. Now.

And when Ragnos is gone, Sadow basically says he WON'T listen to him, Wow, THAT'S fear, especially when Naga pretty much tells
Marka to go away and let them fight. And when'd I say Ludo was driven by love? I just said he worshipped, admired and loved MArka and NOTHING shows he was scared of Marka. Everytime he mentions Marka, it's with admiration.
"Great Marka Ragnos, wear this helmet during your battles in the afterlife!"
Yep, real fearful.
"You'd destroy everything Marka Ragnos built! YOU SHAME HIS MEMORY!"

Oh, I only have evidence, author opinions and official sources on my side...as opposed to the king of conjecture.

Lesse, we give Shimrra yammosk tech through Onimi's mentality, he'll see through force illusions. Marka'll create them in the middle of a fight how? How would a barrier affect vong weapons that go through solid stone? Thud and razor bugs?

OH, right...which is why Sadow needs concentration. Sadow;s illusions aren;t real, they're just illusions. Notice how they vanish?
Sadow's clearly saying he's able to manifest what he sees as illusions...remember? A massive bulk of the fleet was composed of illusions.

Great Sith

Originally posted by Lightsnake

OH, right...which is why Sadow needs concentration. Sadow;s illusions aren;t real, they're just illusions. Notice how they vanish?
Sadow's clearly saying he's able to manifest what he sees as illusions...remember? A massive bulk of the fleet was composed of illusions.

Great Sith

Oh yeah LS, they are illusions simply because you say they are, nevermind the actual material. And they vanish because the illusions are only real while Sadow wills it to be so, but that doesnt make them any less real.

Ok, we're gonna have to back this bullshit up! Because every source says they were illusions and Aleema using the same kinda of 'real' illusions are just enough to drive people into shock! Sorry! Real things don't vanish!
Nevermind they're called 'illusions; everywhere else, the Jedi declare the enemy isn't as numerous as they thought, they're called 'fake illusions' everywhere else, Aleema's illusions are called real..

Next!

LS is getting pwned lalalalalalala...........

A moron's contributing nothing, what a shock.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, we're gonna have to back this bullshit up! Because every source says they were illusions and Aleema using the same kinda of 'real' illusions are just enough to drive people into shock! Sorry! Real things don't vanish!
Nevermind they're called 'illusions; everywhere else, the Jedi declare the enemy isn't as numerous as they thought, they're called 'fake illusions' everywhere else, Aleema's illusions are called real..

Next!

Did you completely ignore the comic strip I posted? Let me highlight the important quote, Sadow: " I can visualize vast armies, powerful fleets, invincible warriors...and with my sith arts, my imagination can make them real !"

And again you ignore my arguments, I already explained why illusions vanish.