Originally posted by docb77
You need more maps, a map of the US won't do much good if your trying to find your way across town, likewise a street almanac doesn't do much good when planning a transoceanic cruise.The LDS church actually has the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible, throw a prophet in the mix and we've got all kinds of maps and direct access to the mapmaker.
How do you know the Mormons have the right map ? 😉
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How do you know the Mormons have the right map ? 😉
Like I said, you just have to ask the mapmaker. It's a little more involved than that I suppose. There are conditions on getting an answer to that question, the main one being a willingness to follow the map if that's the answer you get. Without that willingness, I suppose God thinks your better off not knowing than knowingly going the wrong way. I guess that gives him more room to give mercy.
Originally posted by docb77
Like I said, you just have to ask the mapmaker. It's a little more involved than that I suppose. There are conditions on getting an answer to that question, the main one being a willingness to follow the map if that's the answer you get. Without that willingness, I suppose God thinks your better off not knowing than knowingly going the wrong way. I guess that gives him more room to give mercy.
A God of Absolute love doesn't need room for Mercy....he or she'd have Infinite Mercy regardless. 😉
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
A God of Absolute love doesn't need room for Mercy....he or she'd have Infinite Mercy regardless. 😉
True, but this is a God of absolute Justice as well. God has to at once mete out justice and save as many of His children as He can (be merciful). In the eternal scheme intentions equal or surpass actual actions in getting to where your going, so disobeying a commandment in ignorance might just merit a lesser punishment than willfully rebelling against God's commandments.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
A God of Absolute love doesn't need room for Mercy....he or she'd have Infinite Mercy regardless. 😉
Unless of course he is also a just God. Then absolute love does not serve justice without the presence of mercy. And, God is Just.
Deuteronomy 32:4
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Originally posted by docb77
True, but this is a God of absolute Justice as well.
You said True, so therefore he is NOT a God of Absolute Love by your own account....period.
Justice and Love are not hand in hand. Justice is objective, and Love is not.
Justice consists of Reward and Punishment. Although many say that Love consists of Reward and Punishment as well, NO LOVE can consist of the option of Hell.
The fact that God created Hell, or allowed it to exist, or renders it the punishment for those who don't beleive in him, erases the possibility that he is Love.
Love[/b/ punishes temporarily and mercifully. Hell is not temporary, it is eternal, and Hell is not merciful it's torture.
Mercy CANNOT EQUAL Torture...
LOVE cannot spawn Hell.....
Originally posted by docb77
[B]God has to at once mete out justice and save as many of His children as He can (be merciful).
"As many as he can" implies that he has limits, and is therefore not Omnipotent.
Originally posted by docb77
In the eternal scheme intentions equal or surpass actual actions in getting to where your going, so disobeying a commandment in ignorance might just merit a lesser punishment than willfully rebelling against God's commandments.
The Bible says that Homosexuality is a sin punishable by Death. Does that mean I should kill the next homosexual person I meet by throwing stones at them? Does that mean I should kill myself for being bisexual ?
Hey....on that note...I am Bisexual...does that mean I deserve to go to Hell and have my flesh burnt off, my digestive system eaten by demon maggots, have pitchforks go up my ass, have glass shatter into my eyeballs, and be chewed up my infinite rows of teeth...for all eternity?
According to your Bible, and according to much Christian testiment...That's what I deserve. Do you agree with that ?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You said True, so therefore he is NOT a God of Absolute Love by your own account....period.]
Oh, come on. You know what I meant, don't twist my words. A father doesn't love his child any less because he punishes him. God doesn't love anyone less because they ignore his warnings.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B]Justice and Love are not hand in hand. Justice is objective, and Love is not.Justice consists of Reward and Punishment. Although many say that Love consists of Reward and Punishment as well, NO LOVE can consist of the option of Hell.
The fact that God created Hell, or allowed it to exist, or renders it the punishment for those who don't beleive in him, erases the possibility that he is Love.
[b]Love[/b/ punishes temporarily and mercifully. Hell is not temporary, it is eternal, and Hell is not merciful it's torture.
Mercy CANNOT EQUAL Torture...
LOVE cannot spawn Hell.....
You don't understand the LDS view of the afterlife, do you? There are three main divisions here. The lowest of which is pretty much like the life we're living right now, except better as there won't be crime and such. That is where LDS doctrine teaches us that murderers, liars, and whoremongers will end up, is that too hellish for you? Of course if you live a better life you get a commensurately better reward.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
"As many as he can" implies that he has limits, and is therefore not Omnipotent.
I think Regret and I explained this one to you in another thread.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[The Bible says that Homosexuality is a sin punishable by Death. Does that mean I should kill the next homosexual person I meet by throwing stones at them? Does that mean I should kill myself for being bisexual ?Hey....on that note...I am Bisexual...does that mean I deserve to go to Hell and have my flesh burnt off, my digestive system eaten by demon maggots, have pitchforks go up my ass, have glass shatter into my eyeballs, and be chewed up my infinite rows of teeth...for all eternity?
According to your Bible, and according to much Christian testiment...That's what I deserve. Do you agree with that ?
See above for what I think you'll eventually get if you don't repent. As far as killing you for homosexuality - No, that ended with Christ. I think we covered it in the Death Penalty thread.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You said True, so therefore he is NOT a God of Absolute Love by your own account....period.Justice and Love are not hand in hand. Justice is objective, and Love is not.
Justice consists of Reward and Punishment. Although many say that Love consists of Reward and Punishment as well, NO LOVE can consist of the option of Hell.
Justice is merely the law that governs all existence, God is not beyond its bounds. Cause and effect. All action has an effect. We don't believe that God creates justice, only that cause and effect exist and are an eternal truth. Justice is the balance, the natural maintenance of cause and effect.
Justice is not reward and punishment, and does not consist of such. Justice is consequence, it is the effect that follows the action. Justice is merely the natural occurrence following an action. Any perceived punishment is due to the unwillingness of God to interfere with our free agency. If we do something he has told us will result in a consequence that is not desired, we are going to get the consequence. God's love and mercy allow us to be shielded from some of the consequences of our actions. God takes some of the consequences that we give him, and we feel very little of the negative if we do this. We term this repentance.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The fact that God created Hell, or allowed it to exist, or renders it the punishment for those who don't beleive in him, erases the possibility that he is Love.[b]Love
punishes temporarily and mercifully. Hell is not temporary, it is eternal, and Hell is not merciful it's torture.Mercy CANNOT EQUAL Torture...
LOVE cannot spawn Hell.....[/B]
Mormons do not believe in a hell, at least not one that man can get to without absolute knowledge of truth. We also do not believe that God metes out punishment. He merely does not always shield us from the consequences of our actions. When he does punish us, it is to lessen our ability to cause ourselves more harm through an increased level of inappropriate actions. We believe that hell is our choices that cause us to be limited in our eternal evolution towards a more perfect state of being. God did not create this limitation, it is merely the byproduct of actions that are inconsistent with the state that is better than our current state. Hell, what we term Hell, is merely an extreme state of limitation. We believe it requires a body to progress/evolve. Satan is a spirit, his angels are spirit, they will never achieve the physical body, they will never evolve beyond what they are now, that is hell to a Mormon. It is not created, it is a state that we end up in due to our inability to reconcile our actions to the actions that are required for progression to a better state.
As Docb77 stated, we believe there are three distinct areas, and the hell Satan will be in. All the same there are an infinite number of layers withing each. We believe that you will go to the place that the behavior you live fits.
D&C 88:34-39
34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.
35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.
36 All kingdoms have a law given;
37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.
38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.
39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
"As many as he can" implies that he has limits, and is therefore not Omnipotent.
He is not limited. We are limited, and we limit what we allow him to do. He has given us the ability to act as we will, he will not begrudge us the ability to be too stupid to listen. God has limited himself by allowing us to behave as we want to.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Bible says that Homosexuality is a sin punishable by Death. Does that mean I should kill the next homosexual person I meet by throwing stones at them? Does that mean I should kill myself for being bisexual ?Hey....on that note...I am Bisexual...does that mean I deserve to go to Hell and have my flesh burnt off, my digestive system eaten by demon maggots, have pitchforks go up my ass, have glass shatter into my eyeballs, and be chewed up my infinite rows of teeth...for all eternity?
According to your Bible, and according to much Christian testiment...That's what I deserve. Do you agree with that ?
Those during OT time saw God in a pillar of fire by day, and a pillar of smoke by night. They saw God part the Red Sea. They saw the plagues. They ate manna from heaven. They saw the Jordan stopped. They saw flames come down from heaven and consume a sacrifice soaked thoroughly with water. They saw the walls of Jericho crumble due to horns blasting outside. They saw an enormous amount of evidence that God existed. They knew he was there, they did not think he might be, they did not think that maybe he existed, they knew. OT punishments were because they knew, we today do not know. At least not nearly to the extent that OT peoples knew. The consequences for their actions were stronger because of their knowledge.
If you believe the punishment you described is what you deserve for that type of behavior then yes, I agree with the hell you describe being a fitting punishment for you behaving that way. If you do not believe that, then I will believe you will go where Mormons believe you will go. We believe you will go to heaven. We believe you will have the capability to continue to progress. We believe that the heaven you go to will be much more enjoyable than the world we live in. We believe you will go where the actions you enjoy will fit. We believe that you will go to a place where the way you behave will allow you to be. You won't go to hell unless you perceive it as hell.
Originally posted by docb77
Oh, come on. You know what I meant, don't twist my words. A father doesn't love his child any less because he punishes him. God doesn't love anyone less because they ignore his warnings.
If a Father sends his child to Eternal torment, then yes he loves him much less...
Or if that's the kind of Love God possesses, than I don't want God's love. It's too extreme.
Originally posted by docb77
You don't understand the LDS view of the afterlife, do you? There are three main divisions here. The lowest of which is pretty much like the life we're living right now, except better as there won't be crime and such. That is where LDS doctrine teaches us that murderers, liars, and whoremongers will end up, is that too hellish for you? Of course if you live a better life you get a commensurately better reward.
The LSD view of the afterlife ? Hallucinations ?
Hmm...I was always taught that Hell was a realm of fire, and that you will get tortured thier eternally. That is what Jesus said according to the Bible...even ultra right insane Christian debator JesusIsAlive claimed that, and he seems to be an expert on the subject. 😉
Originally posted by docb77
I think Regret and I explained this one to you in another thread.
Yes, but it contradicts the Biblical answer.
Originally posted by docb77
See above for what I think you'll eventually get if you don't repent. As far as killing you for homosexuality - No, that ended with Christ. I think we covered it in the Death Penalty thread.
Then what's the point of the Old Testament, if it's laws no longer apply? According to OT, homosexuality is punishable by being stoned, as is being a prostitute. At the same time i deserve to go to Hell because of What I am....according to the Bible.
I still don't get it..... 🤨
If the Old Testament no longer applies, then why keep it in the Bible ?
Originally posted by Regret
Justice is merely the law that governs all existence, God is not beyond its bounds. Cause and effect. All action has an effect. We don't believe that God creates justice, only that cause and effect exist and are an eternal truth. Justice is the balance, the natural maintenance of cause and effect.
You are COMPLETELY WRONG on this matter. Justice is NOT universal...it doesn't exist in Animals, it doesn't exist in plant life, it doesn't exist in the microscopic world.
Justice is a HUMAN CONSTRUCT which we apply to our governments, in fear of the dangers of the wild (or Anarchism)
All Action has an effect, but not all effects are Just.
Cause and Effect has nothing to do with Justice.
Cause: A Lion sees a dear
Effect: He eats the dear
Is that Justice? 🙄
How about...Cause: A Peadophile rapes and kills a child, Effect: The child dies a horrible death, and no one ever finds out.
Justice ?????
Originally posted by Regret
Justice is not reward and punishment, and does not consist of such. Justice is consequence, it is the effect that follows the action. Justice is merely the natural occurrence following an action. Any perceived punishment is due to the unwillingness of God to interfere with our free agency. If we do something he has told us will result in a consequence that is not desired, we are going to get the consequence. God's love and mercy allow us to be shielded from some of the consequences of our actions. God takes some of the consequences that we give him, and we feel very little of the negative if we do this. We term this repentance.
Justice is Consequence ?
So I cross the street to get something to eat, the light is green. By accident a car fails to stop, and I get runned over. I die from the impact, and the driver who is NOT drunk simply couldn't stop in time.
The consequence of me crossing the street is me dying. Is that Justice ? The driver kills me by total accident....and he gets sentenced to life in prison....is that justice ?
The consequence of a corporate thief who usurps money from his stockholders, then flees to another country with all that wealth. No one ever finds out, and he lives a life of intense wealth, while the others he stole from end up on the street. Is that justice ?
You act as if bad things don't happen to good people, and as if good things don't happen to bad people. How unrealistic.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You are [b]COMPLETELY WRONG on this matter. Justice is NOT universal...it doesn't exist in Animals, it doesn't exist in plant life, it doesn't exist in the microscopic world.Justice is a HUMAN CONSTRUCT which we apply to our governments, in fear of the dangers of the wild (or Anarchism)
All Action has an effect, but not all effects are Just.
Cause and Effect has nothing to do with Justice.
Cause: A Lion sees a dear
Effect: He eats the dear
Is that Justice? 🙄
How about...Cause: A Peadophile rapes and kills a child, Effect: The child dies a horrible death, and no one ever finds out.
Justice ?????
Justice is Consequence ?
So I cross the street to get something to eat, the light is green. By accident a car fails to stop, and I get runned over. I die from the impact, and the driver who is NOT drunk simply couldn't stop in time.
The consequence of me crossing the street is me dying. Is that Justice ? The driver kills me by total accident....and he gets sentenced to life in prison....is that justice ?
The consequence of a corporate thief who usurps money from his stockholders, then flees to another country with all that wealth. No one ever finds out, and he lives a life of intense wealth, while the others he stole from end up on the street. Is that justice ?
You act as if bad things don't happen to good people, and as if good things don't happen to bad people. How unrealistic. [/B]
I am not saying anything like that. I am saying that there are consequences to behaviors like lying, cheating, stealing, etc. I am saying that your behavior alters you physiologically, and perhaps in a spiritual sense as well. The physiological effects of behavior on brain development through the entirety of life is well documented. There are consequences to behavior. My view of justice is that the consequences must occur given an action. God, can mediate some of these consequences. You standing in front of a moving car and being hit is the consequence of standing in front of it while it is moving. The actions of one do effect others, you describe this with the pedophile example. Yet you cling to the idea that God should not punish individuals that commit actions that effect others negatively, to treat them equally with those that avoid such behavior. You claim that a loving God could not allow them to place themselves in Hell? I am sorry, but the pedophile's victim would not be loved appropriately if God made it so the pedophile did not receive the consequences of his actions. If there were no victim, there would be no need for further consequence upon the pedophile.
Justice is an improper term, and is a construct that man has come up with. All the same it describes the administration and procedure of this universal law.
The portion of the definition of Justice that fits this is:
1 The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
2 Law The administration and procedure of law.
Law as I am referring to it:
1 A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
2 A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.
Justice does fit the law of consequences as I described it. Justice is not necessarily fairness, it is not necessarily what is best for the individuals involved. Justice is merely the satisfying of the law, and by law I am referring to any law, not just the laws of governance.
This is my view, and it is a logical one. You can disagree, but don't resort to childish statements in an attempt to demean my view. I never stated that there were not consequences that occurred to the innocent. I understand this. The victims of improper action are part of the reason that improper action is not entirely mediated as far as consequence goes. Justice is the administration and procedure of consequence.
I do not "act as if bad things don't happen to good people, and as if good things don't happen to bad people." You misinterpret me. I merely state that in the eternal scheme of things a stronger negative consequence will follow the improper behaviors, and a stronger positive consequence will follow proper behaviors. We, from our limited perspective, cannot see these far reaching consequences.
Please 🙄
Don't be an ass just because you don't like what I have stated.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The [b]LSD view of the afterlife ? Hallucinations ?[/B]
I have at times been of the opinion that you were worthy of respect. Comments like this lessen that opinion and make me consider that it was in error from the beginning.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Hmm...I was always taught that Hell was a realm of fire, and that you will get tortured thier eternally. That is what Jesus said according to the Bible...even ultra right insane Christian debator [b]JesusIsAlive claimed that, and he seems to be an expert on the subject. 😉 [/B]
And it is one interpretation. This could be metaphorical in its description, it could be symbolic in some way, there are a large number of reasons that this interpretation of the text could be wrong.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, but it contradicts the Biblical answer.
Explain how it contradicts the Biblical answer. We believe God can do anything. We do not believe that the Bible anywhere states that there are not consequences to action, even if God is the one acting. God is limited by the fact that there are consequences to action, and he has allowed us to choose how we behave. It does not contradict, and if you claim it does show some evidence supporting that claim.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then what's the point of the Old Testament, if it's laws no longer apply? According to OT, homosexuality is punishable by being stoned, as is being a prostitute. At the same time i deserve to go to Hell because of What I am....according to the Bible.I still don't get it..... 🤨
If the Old Testament no longer applies, then why keep it in the Bible ?
The Old Testament is a much more detailed and rigorous set of laws than are required, they are there for those that cannot judge for themselves what is right and wrong. It exists for those that do not understand love, and would err because they cannot grasp the concept of love that would prohibit these behaviors without the need for their description. They exist for those that, without the severe punishments described, would commit the improper behaviors described therein. They were written for those that cannot live up to the standard that is pure love.
Originally posted by Regret
I am not saying anything like that. I am saying that there are consequences to behaviors like lying, cheating, stealing, etc. I am saying that your behavior alters you physiologically, and perhaps in a spiritual sense as well. The physiological effects of behavior on brain development through the entirety of life is well documented. There are consequences to behavior. My view of justice is that the consequences must occur given an action. God, can mediate some of these consequences. You standing in front of a moving car and being hit is the consequence of standing in front of it while it is moving. The actions of one do effect others, you describe this with the pedophile example. Yet you cling to the idea that God should not punish individuals that commit actions that effect others negatively, to treat them equally with those that avoid such behavior. You claim that a loving God could not allow them to place themselves in Hell? I am sorry, but the pedophile's victim would not be loved appropriately if God made it so the pedophile did not receive the consequences of his actions. If there were no victim, there would be no need for further consequence upon the pedophile.]
Keywords for your last statement : [b]If there were no victim. Why couldn't God himself somehow protect all innocent children from being raped in the first place? If he's so powerful, and is our Father and Creator, than it is HIS RIGHT and DUTY to protect those who are not yet ready to face such adult horrors.
Why wait to punish someone ? Why not just prevent it in the first place? Peadophilia, like homosexuality, is NOT a choice...the attraction is forced upon the person who possessed it....If God wants us all to be straight and only be attracted to adults of the opposite sex, then why are other desires implanted into our minds ? Free will and Choice has NOTHING to do with sexual orientation.
Is Sexual Orientation changable? Possibly...very much possibly...but chosen? NO WAY ! And for a straight person to argue otherwise is faulty and illogical.
Originally posted by Regret
Justice is an improper term, and is a construct that man has come up with. All the same it describes the administration and procedure of this universal law.]
It is not universal though is what you don't get . There is no justice in the animal world. There is no justice in some nations....evil people get away with doing realllllyyy horrrible things, innocent people suffffer for no reason without justice, and really good people sometimes get NO REWARDS for thier actions.
How can you say Justice is natural and universal ? We made that concept up !
Originally posted by Regret
[B]The portion of the definition of Justice that fits this is:1 The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
2 Law The administration and procedure of law.]
But you do realize that Law always changes, right? And you must also realize that what is "justice" today is altered tomorrow...not literally, but throughout Human History the definitions of Justice are EVERY changing...back then it was "tooth for a tooth, eye for an eye" today its "turn the other cheek" or whatever....there is no fixed standard for justice.
Originally posted by Regret
[B]Law as I am referring to it:1 A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
2 A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.]
Again, just ur opinion, your belief, your right to think, and not my place to violate.
Originally posted by Regret
[B]Justice does fit the law of consequences as I described it. Justice is not necessarily fairness, it is not necessarily what is best for the individuals involved. Justice is merely the satisfying of the law, and by law I am referring to any law, not just the laws of governance.]
What about the Law of Gravity? What about the Laws of Physics ? Is it Justice when a meteor crashes on a planet, or when a star goes super nova ?
Originally posted by Regret
[B]This is my view, and it is a logical one. You can disagree, but don't resort to childish statements in an attempt to demean my view. I never stated that there were not consequences that occurred to the innocent. I understand this. The victims of improper action are part of the reason that improper action is not entirely mediated as far as consequence goes. Justice is the administration and procedure of consequence.]
So your saying that Universal Justice does not see "innocent" or "guilty"..it only sees "punishment"....so I am guessing you beleive Justice is blind.
If that's the case, and if your God is a God of Justice, then your God is blind as well. 😉
Originally posted by Regret
[B]I do not "act as if bad things don't happen to good people, and as if good things don't happen to bad people." You misinterpret me. I merely state that in the eternal scheme of things a stronger negative consequence will follow the improper behaviors, and a stronger positive consequence will follow proper behaviors. We, from our limited perspective, cannot see these far reaching consequences.]
If none of us can see this, then you cannot claim it as fact.
Originally posted by Regret
[B]Please 🙄 ]
Don't go there Girlfreind ! argue Mmmhmmm !
Originally posted by Regret
[B]Don't be an ass just because you don't like what I have stated.
Generally, I AM an Ass...but that's not the point. This has nothing to do with whether or not I like what you said...What you are saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me so far...
Originally posted by Regret
I have at times been of the opinion that you were worthy of respect. Comments like this lessen that opinion and make me consider that it was in error from the beginning.
I couldn't care less if you respect me or not. And isn't that clearly what you said ? LSD ?
Originally posted by Regret
And it is one interpretation. This could be metaphorical in its description, it could be symbolic in some way, there are a large number of reasons that this interpretation of the text could be wrong.
Then whose to say what parts of the Bible should be taken literally or metaphorically? Mainstream Christians in general tend to nitpick what they like, and disregard what's inconvienent for themselves.
Originally posted by Regret
Explain how it contradicts the Biblical answer. We believe God can do anything. We do not believe that the Bible anywhere states that there are not consequences to action, even if God is the one acting. God is limited by the fact that there are consequences to action, and he has allowed us to choose how we behave. It does not contradict, and if you claim it does show some evidence supporting that claim.
The Biblical Answer is that God is all knowing and all powerful, yet at the same time he cannot do so many things. You already stated how he limitted himself through human limits...however, the very fact that he has limits means he is not omnipotent.
The very definition of Omnipotent (or all powerful as the Bible claims) is being able to do WHATEVER YOU WANT.
If God cannot see the future, or if he cannot save a child from a child molestor cuz its against free will, if he cannot bar the devil from temptating us, if he cannot exclude us from evil, and if he cannot make his presense absolutely known and undeniable to us, then he is not omnipotent.
When I ask people why doesn't God make this world a more peaceful place, they usually answer "He's trying"
The very fact that he's trying means he can't just do it...an all powerful, all knowing God can find infinite ways around Free Will....if he can't do it, then he's not all powerful. Period.
Originally posted by Regret
The Old Testament is a much more detailed and rigorous set of laws than are required, they are there for those that cannot judge for themselves what is right and wrong. It exists for those that do not understand love, and would err because they cannot grasp the concept of love that would prohibit these behaviors without the need for their description. They exist for those that, without the severe punishments described, would commit the improper behaviors described therein. They were written for those that cannot live up to the standard that is pure love.
And what is pure Love ? Pure love cannot consist of religious or personal bias. Pure Love can only consist of Love bias, and it's not the same thing as religious bias.
Religion is one of the many catalysts for war and hatred. You KNOW this so don't deny it. History has already proven religion to be the spark for such horrible things. Religion causes more disunity than unity..has religion created world peace ?NO NOT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS...ITS NOT WORKING...
PURE LOVE lacks judgement, it lacks selfishness, it lacks criticism, it lacks all other bias. When you love someone with pure love, the love is unconditional, and it dies for no reason. Love does NOT envy, punish, restrict, control and especially does NOT HATE.
Love defends, sets free, unifies, tolerates, and ENJOYS.......If you don't get that, then you don't know what Love actually is.
No one needs the Old Testament to know what love is...in FACT you can sure as hell find LOADS of HATRED in it, as you can in many sections of the Bible ...can you find Love in the Bible? Ofcourse....but it's not pure love..pure love cannot be mixed with any sort of Hatred whatsoever...
And on a last note...a Jealous God is not a God of Love....love does not envy. 😉
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Keywords for your last statement : [b]If there were no victim. Why couldn't God himself somehow protect all innocent children from being raped in the first place? If he's so powerful, and is our Father and Creator, than it is HIS RIGHT and DUTY to protect those who are not yet ready to face such adult horrors.Why wait to punish someone ? Why not just prevent it in the first place? Peadophilia, like homosexuality, is NOT a choice...the attraction is forced upon the person who possessed it....If God wants us all to be straight and only be attracted to adults of the opposite sex, then why are other desires implanted into our minds ? Free will and Choice has NOTHING to do with sexual orientation. [/B]
Because the pedophile has the same rights as I do. Why not imprison people based on the probability of them breaking the law? Why not? It is the same. Until the act is committed any action is not justified.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Is Sexual Orientation changable? Possibly...very much possibly...but chosen? NO WAY ! And for a straight person to argue otherwise is faulty and illogical.
There is no evidence for this. It is just as likely that it is chosen. Are you claiming that homosexuality is such that a person would not choose to be homosexual? If so, then it should be considered a disease and we should isolate individuals with this condition and attempt to cure them. Your words, not mine, say that one would not choose to be homosexual.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It is not universal though is what you don't get . There is no justice in the animal world. There is no justice in some nations....evil people get away with doing realllllyyy horrrible things, innocent people suffffer for no reason without justice, and really good people sometimes get NO REWARDS for thier actions.How can you say Justice is natural and universal ? We made that concept up !
But you do realize that Law always changes, right? And you must also realize that what is "justice" today is altered tomorrow...not literally, but throughout Human History the definitions of Justice are EVERY changing...back then it was "tooth for a tooth, eye for an eye" today its "turn the other cheek" or whatever....there is no fixed standard for justice.
Again, just ur opinion, your belief, your right to think, and not my place to violate.
What about the Law of Gravity? What about the Laws of Physics ? Is it Justice when a meteor crashes on a planet, or when a star goes super nova ?
So your saying that Universal Justice does not see "innocent" or "guilty"..it only sees "punishment"....so I am guessing you beleive Justice is blind.
If that's the case, and if your God is a God of Justice, then your God is blind as well. 😉
Yes, it is my opinion, it is my belief, it is my view. That is what we are discussing.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If none of us can see this, then you cannot claim it as fact.
Never did claim it as fact. It is my belief. And our beliefs are what we were discussing.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Generally, I AM an Ass...but that's not the point. This has nothing to do with whether or not I like what you said...What you are saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me so far...
And so it won't. I have stated fairly clearly imo, it is not an error on my end as far as your understanding. It may be a waste of time trying to restate it again and again in the hopes that you would grasp the concept, it is either beyond your understanding or you are being to narrow minded to understand a view that is not your own. IMO it is the latter.
Urizen, the bottom line is that yes homosexuality is a sin in Biblical religions and yes, if Biblical religions are correct those that practice it will go to a place that is not the best possibility for them. Yes, the Bible condemns many actions, and it is not necessarily fair from many peoples perspectives. Just get over it and don't talk about it with Christians if you can't look past your own views far enough to at least understand and respect other people's views.
I won't respond further as it seems to be a waste of time conversing with you on the subject. I enjoyed our last discussion, but you seem to be too emotionally tied to this subject to discuss it in a manner I would enjoy.
Originally posted by Regret
Because the pedophile has the same rights as I do. Why not imprison people based on the probability of them breaking the law? Why not? It is the same. Until the act is committed any action is not justified.
Why does God implant the desire, or allow the devil to implant that unique and highly destructive desire ?
If all evil flows from Satan, then why does God allow SATAN to violate our free will with temptation ?
Originally posted by Regret
There is no evidence for this. It is just as likely that it is chosen. Are you claiming that homosexuality is such that a person would not choose to be homosexual? If so, then it should be considered a disease and we should isolate individuals with this condition and attempt to cure them. Your words, not mine, say that one would not choose to be homosexual.
Dude...I AM BISEXUAL..and I am telling you I never chose it. I am a PRIMARY SOURCE and the matter, and if you choose to ignore my testiment than you are even more ignorant and bias then I ever imagined.
Homosexuality was once considered a disease, until last century when Psychologists removed it from the list and deemed in natural. Animals enact homosexual and bisexual activity, so you cannot claim it is unnatural.
You cannot choose to be attracted to someone you are not attracted to...There are GAY VIRGINS.
I was BISEXUAL before I lost my virginity....how the FCK could i CHOOSE to be something I never asked to be?
What ffkn part of it don't you understand ?
Originally posted by Regret
Yes, it is my opinion, it is my belief, it is my view. That is what we are discussing.
Your opinion is not Fact...that is my point..thanks for verifying. 😉
Originally posted by Regret
Never did claim it as fact. It is my belief. And our beliefs are what we were discussing.
So lets discuss..... 🙂
Originally posted by Regret
And so it won't. I have stated fairly clearly imo, it is not an error on my end as far as your understanding. It may be a waste of time trying to restate it again and again in the hopes that you would grasp the concept, it is either beyond your understanding or you are being to narrow minded to understand a view that is not your own. IMO it is the latter.
No...like the Bible your arguments supply an array of contradictions and uncertainties.
Until your arguments are consistant and can be supported with evidense OTHER tahn the Bible, I may begin to respect and understand them
Originally posted by Regret
Urizen, the bottom line is that yes homosexuality is a sin in Biblical religions and yes, if Biblical religions are correct those that practice it will go to a place that is not the best possibility for them. Yes, the Bible condemns many actions, and it is not necessarily fair from many peoples perspectives. Just get over it and don't talk about it with Christians if you can't look past your own views far enough to at least understand and respect other people's views.
This is my point exactly...this is how I see it:
I am telling you from personal knowledge, that being Bisexual or Homosexual is not a choice. It is what a person is, the same way you are heterosexual and did not choose it...its just what you are, your attractions came to you..you did not choose ur attractions.
Since your religion claims that Homosexuality is Sin, and that Sin is intentional evil, then Homosexuality cannot be a sin since I KNOW its not a choice....
How could u know that homosexuality or bisexuality is chosen, when you are not one yourself ? Can you MAKE yourself like other men? If you can, I'd love to know how you'd be capable of it .
Ne ways, point is, i know the fact that homosexuality is not chosen...if another source (even the Bible) claims that homosexuality is chosen, then I know for sure that that source is wrong. 😉