Is Evil Independent of God?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Such being must be all good and all evil.

Abrahamic God seems rather vengeful. He smights and sends people to eternal suffering for every little thing.
Why do people insist on worshiping something that is so vengefull.

not saying that I agree that He is vengeful, but taking that as a premise:

Q. If god is vengeful, why would people worship Him?
A. To stay on the good side of someone who might put them in a very bad place.

Just a guess.

What I really think is that God isn't arbitrarily deciding who goes to Hell and Heaven, but rather just trying to tell us what we have to do to get there ourselves - giving us a roadmap as it were.

Vengence is a natural part of life. You can't expect everythign to be all lemonade and lollipops.

The dichotomous concept of god/devil was created to shove all the bad stuff off on the devil and provide a scary alternative to god. But since the devil is subordinate to god, its not really a true alternative.

God gived the devil his power and his isolation, the ability to lead into tememptation. This is Gods fault. Having a dichotemous view of good and evil is rather naieve imo.

It makes better sense that god/devil is the smae being. A light side/dark side type thing. Abraxas is this type of God. The chirstian God being vengeful is just a sign of the inability to escape the true grey nature of god.

Originally posted by docb77
Perhaps good and evil, indeed opposites of all kinds, are just innate features of the universe - like the laws of physics. God would exist from the beginning, create all things spiritual and physical, yet He would be working within the framework of the way the Universe worked. Good/Evil, the laws of physics, etc. would already be there. God didn't have to create them, they just are.

Bu that would mean that not everything is dependent of God, and therefore he is not the creator of all.

Originally posted by docb77
not saying that I agree that He is vengeful, but taking that as a premise:

Q. If god is vengeful, why would people worship Him?
A. To stay on the good side of someone who might put them in a very bad place.

Just a guess.

What I really think is that God isn't arbitrarily deciding who goes to Hell and Heaven, but rather just trying to tell us what we have to do to get there ourselves - giving us a roadmap as it were.

Then he gave us an ever changing roadmaps, as the standards of good and evil, even those intepretted from the Bible are ever changing throughout History...

Why not just give us a clearer map? The Bible obviously hasn't been working that well in terms of promoting an only-good way of life for those who beleive in it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Bu that would mean that not everything is dependent of God, and therefore he is not the creator of all.

That doesn't conflict with Mormon belief.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then he gave us an ever changing roadmaps, as the standards of good and evil, even those intepretted from the Bible are ever changing throughout History...

Why not just give us a clearer map? The Bible obviously hasn't been working that well in terms of promoting an only-good way of life for those who beleive in it.

Life today is not as it was during Bible times. There are enormous differences between the needs of people today and those in Biblical times. I would hate to have to rely only on what was needed during ancient times today. And I think many of the things needed by us today would have been very unnecessary to those in ancient times.

Plus Mormons believe God still speaks to man.

I think Regret summed up how I would answer.

Let me just add this analogy to his response about the changing roadmap. God's roadmap would have to be perfect, so of course it would also include all the detours for road construction and weather.

Originally posted by docb77
I think Regret summed up how I would answer.

Let me just add this analogy to his response about the changing roadmap. God's roadmap would have to be perfect, so of course it would also include all the detours for road construction and weather.

But the Bible is not perfect. If it were, it would have worked throughout all of history, which it hasn't as a source of authority.

As a source of personal guidance, I have absolutely no objections and actually would encourage anyone to try it out and look to the Bible for whatever they feel they need in thier own lives.

But to enter the Bible into politics and government is a HUGE fkn mistake.....you HAVE to realize that the Bible does not work for everyone...history has proven this, and how many tragedies and human rights violations do we need for everyone to understand this ?

If you trust in the Bible with your heart, then I encourage you to stick to it...it's obviously working for you. But it does not work for everyone, so for you to force your ideals upon those who do not welcome it, is uncalled for and ineffective.

Would you argue otherwise ?

Originally posted by ska57
God did not create evil, He created choice.

Ah, hence Free will, no ?

Why is Choice only divided between being good and evil? There is no neutrality involved? So if I decided whether to drink coffee, or tea, one choice is evil, while the other is good?

Why couldn't God create a world where evil does not exist, yet we have the choice to do whatever "good" we wanted?

You act as if good cannot exist without evil, and that is flawed logic.

Originally posted by ska57
Love cannot exist without the choice of the alternative.

Yes it can. Love can exist without Hate very much. Quite in fact, you cannot Love and Hate the same person at the same instant. It's not possible..you can be intensely angry at the person you love, even dislike the person you love, but you cannot truly hate them.

Likewise, you cannot ever Love someone you have an intense hatred for...as long as that hatred lasts.

Love is simply the force of attraction between two or more sentient beings. It exists in humans and animals alike....you don't need Hate for Love to exist, in fact one REQUIRES the absense of the other.

Originally posted by ska57
Sure God could have made us all mindless robots that only obey Him, but our hearts wouldn't know what it means to love, because that's all there is - to follow God. So God gave us all a choice to follow, or not follow Him. And if we choose to follow, that is real love, because we choose God over ourselves, our posessions, the world, etc. God did not create "evil". Evil is simply the absence of God, who is love (1 John 4:16).

So to be a good person means to be a mindless robot ? 🤨

Knowing what it means to love is no where as imporant as the emotion/ state of mind of LOVE itself.

You cannot choose to Love someone...that is the biggest flaw in your argument. Love happens on its own, without our permission. You cannot choose to love your mother or father..you just DO...you cannot choose to love another person...you do or you don't....you cannot choose to love anything...love is not a choice, it happens on its own. 😉

On your last claim, How can God be love when His Word (the Bible) is filled with Hate?

Originally posted by ska57
Evil is just like cold, it doesn't exist, it just describes the absence of heat. An object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, heat is what makes matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero is the total absence of heat. All matter becomes incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist, it's a word to describe how we feel when we have no heat.

If Evil does not exist, then WTF is God punishing anyone for? You make absolutely NO SENSE ~! ❌

So Hate does not really exist....you're even more stupid than I imagined.... 🙄

Originally posted by ska57
Evil is just like darkness, it doesn't exist, it just describes the absence of light. Light you can study, but not darkness. A small shaft of light can illuminate the darkness. Can you know how dark a space is? No. You can only measure the amount of light present. Darkness is a term used to describe what happens when there is no light present.

Now you're saying Darkness does not exist....so when it's night, it's not really dark.....my tan skin is not really dark....this black stapler next to me is not really black......riiiiiighttttt

Originally posted by ska57
Evil does not exist, it is simply the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart.

Then we have nothing to worry about, cuz if Evil does not exist, than neither does Hell. 😉

Thanks for clarifying that....idiot

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But the Bible is not perfect. If it were, it would have worked throughout all of history, which it hasn't as a source of authority.

We don't claim the Bible is perfect. The Bible is not a source of authority. Man isn't perfect, that is why the gospel has not worked throughout history. God is not going to force us to behave how we should, he just says, "you know, this is something you should do." At times he has stated don't do this, it causes problems.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
As a source of personal guidance, I have absolutely no objections and actually would encourage anyone to try it out and look to the Bible for whatever they feel they need in thier own lives.

We agree completely with this, but they may want to try the Bible out without taking all the various interpretations as being Bible. Since there are conflicting interpretations then some are wrong.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But to enter the Bible into politics and government is a [b]HUGE fkn mistake.....you HAVE to realize that the Bible does not work for everyone...history has proven this, and how many tragedies and human rights violations do we need for everyone to understand this ? [/B]

The Bible states that all the various commands and such contained therein can be summed up with two attitudes:

1 Love God
2 Love everyone else

Interpretations that do not fit with these statements are wrong. "Tragedies and human rights violations" are not the result of Biblical teachings, they are the result of screwed up interpretation.

Are you saying that these concepts "do not work for everyone"?

When you attack Biblical beliefs you should be more careful to separate interpretation from the Bible itself, not all Biblical religions have the same view on its meaning. Our religion does not believe the Bible has been interpreted correctly since shortly after Christ's crucifixion.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If you trust in the Bible with your heart, then I encourage you to stick to it...it's obviously working for you. But it does not work for everyone, so for you to force your ideals upon those who do not welcome it, is uncalled for and ineffective.

Agreed, no one should be forced with anything. All the same don't speak for others, they can speak for themselves.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Would you argue otherwise ?

If you comment on a Bible subject you are inviting Bible responses. If you attack a Biblical view, expect Biblical defense. You seem to think that those whose views you attack shouldn't attack your views using theirs. If you say life isn't the way you view it, expect people to say that life isn't the way you, yourself, view it.

Originally posted by Regret
We don't claim the Bible is perfect. The Bible is not a source of authority. Man isn't perfect, that is why the gospel has not worked throughout history. God is not going to force us to behave how we should, he just says, "you know, this is something you should do." At times he has stated don't do this, it causes problems.

Many Christians claim the Bible is perfect, my freind. ✅

You just happen to be one of the few rational Christians who exist. My congrats ! If Hell exists, than God is very much forcing us to live a life in his view, because to do otherwise would warrant eternal torment and suffering. How can that NOT be force ?....it's virtual blackmail .

Originally posted by Regret
We agree completely with this, but they may want to try the Bible out without taking all the various interpretations as being Bible. Since there are conflicting interpretations then some are wrong.

It's very very very very very very very easy to intepret much of Biblical content as justifications for hate and violence.

Originally posted by Regret
The Bible states that all the various commands and such contained therein can be summed up with two attitudes:

1 Love God
2 Love everyone else

It depends how you define Love...if you define Love as slaughtering the wives and children of non beleivers, as selling your daughter into slavery, as stoning a prostitute to death, and killing someone for being homosexual....then you would be right....

Originally posted by Regret
Interpretations that do not fit with these statements are wrong. "Tragedies and human rights violations" are not the result of Biblical teachings, they are the result of screwed up interpretation.

"No man shall layeth with another man as he would with a woman...for that is detestable and punishable by death"...

NOW....how the f*ck do you think an Authority figure would intepret that Biblical quote ?

Originally posted by Regret
Are you saying that these concepts "do not work for everyone"?

Yes, I am very much saying that ✅

Originally posted by Regret
When you attack Biblical beliefs you should be more careful to separate interpretation from the Bible itself, not all Biblical religions have the same view on its meaning. Our religion does not believe the Bible has been interpreted correctly since shortly after Christ's crucifixion.

If that is what you beleive, that it renders Christianity INVALID as that is when Christianity began...after his death.

Originally posted by Regret
Agreed, no one should be forced with anything. All the same don't speak for others, they can speak for themselves.

Then I assume you are against enforcing Biblical ideals into politics...

Originally posted by Regret
If you comment on a Bible subject you are inviting Bible responses. If you attack a Biblical view, expect Biblical defense. You seem to think that those whose views you attack shouldn't attack your views using theirs. If you say life isn't the way you view it, expect people to say that life isn't the way you, yourself, view it.

Not so.....I want religious debators to PROVE thier stance...to prove they are right. None have succeeded so far....

Maybe God is what we make IT to be.

That mean it has no concrete basis at all.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Many Christians claim the Bible is perfect, my freind. ✅

You just happen to be one of the few rational Christians who exist. My congrats !

I realize that many Christians claim the Bible is perfect. They, in my opinion are high. Docb77 is Mormon as I am, and would not claim that.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If Hell exists, than God is very much forcing us to live a life in his view, because to do otherwise would warrant eternal torment and suffering. How can that NOT be force ?....it's virtual blackmail .

We do not believe that it is possible to make to a Hell that is worse than this life without a strong knowledge of Truth.

Our belief on who and what makes Hell possible:

They are they who have known "my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power." (D&C 76:31)

To deal carelessly with truth, to deny it when once gained, to defy the laws of truth which are the laws of God, must be counted among the greatest sins. Those who deal lightly with truth in their lives, though they may not become sons of perdition, must expect a heavy punishment, which often begins in mortality.

God doesn't punish our poor behavior with Hell. God only does not reward behavior that is poor.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It's very very very very very very very easy to intepret much of Biblical content as justifications for hate and violence.

Ease of interpretation does not make the interpretation and justification for hate and violence right.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It depends how you define Love...if you define Love as slaughtering the wives and children of non beleivers, as selling your daughter into slavery, as stoning a prostitute to death, and killing someone for being homosexual....then you would be right....

The offenses you list were punished as they were due to the inability of the Israelites to leave the idols they had worshipped in Egypt. They saw the plagues in Egypt, they saw the parting of the red sea, they saw the cloud that God was in and the pillar of fire lead them. They had a knowledge of the truth and denied it at the base of Sinai. Their punishments were more severe because of their knowledge, not because of their belief. The problem was that throughout the OT God showed his power repetitively, and beyond doubt. Given this knowledge, those of the OT were punished more heavily than others had been. The NT is a clarification of who can punish.

John 8: 7
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Given this, no man may punish another, because all men sin.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
"No man shall layeth with another man as he would with a woman...for that is detestable and punishable by death"...

NOW....how the f*ck do you think an Authority figure would intepret that Biblical quote ?

This follows my earlier comments in this post.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, I am very much saying that ✅

I am speaking as to these two:

1 Love God
2 Love everyone else

Do you believe that these concepts "do not work for everyone"?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If that is what you beleive, that it renders Christianity INVALID as that is when Christianity began...after his death.

The term shortly is an important term in my statement. We believe that upon the last apostles death the authority to act in God's name also died. The apostles were the Governing body, and acted to maintain proper understanding of the gospel. Upon their death the understanding was not maintained and within 100-200 years most of what we term the "plain and precious truths" were lost from Christian interpretation of the Bible.

Yes, it renders mainstream Christianity INVALID.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then I assume you are against enforcing Biblical ideals into politics...

I believe that people should act according to their conscience. Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Man has since had a knowledge of Good and Evil and has the capability to act appropriately. I do not believe that people can act separate from what they believe though, and as such religion is a part of that persons reasoning system.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Not so.....I want religious debaters to PROVE thier stance...to prove they are right. None have succeeded so far....

I do not believe the proof exists that would convince a person that did not want to be convinced. You "want religious debaters to PROVE their stance...to prove they are right. None have succeeded so far...." Have you PROVED your stance...to prove you are right. It seems that you have not succeeded so far....

Right, the bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

If we did have a perfect translation of the Bible, it would only do us as much good as we had the ability to read it.

A map, no matter how accurate, only does so much good if the person reading it doesn't understand scale, or the compass, or the symbols that go into it. Many Christian groups may try to read the bible without checking the compas.

Originally posted by docb77
Right, the bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

Actually if he really cares he'd provide the compass, I happen to believe he's done just that.

But how can you ever interpret the compass if all the numbers are jumbled up or not written clearly?

You need more maps, a map of the US won't do much good if your trying to find your way across town, likewise a street almanac doesn't do much good when planning a transoceanic cruise.

The LDS church actually has the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible, throw a prophet in the mix and we've got all kinds of maps and direct access to the mapmaker.

Ok so if you have every map possible, they al lead in a general direction, but in many ways. They still can all be wrong.

I'm sorry I'm not going to be here to continue this, we'll pick it up again.