Originally posted by Advent
Not working out very good obviously. You see, when your best friend is sick. Your "boyfriend" (term used loosely) is apparently "working" (working on a new piece of ass, I bet), and your car is not operational, and everyone else that does have a car, is already out having a blast, getting drunk, and so on - the term "clubbing" transforms into "sitting on my ass, drinking alone".Ah well, there's always next weekend, but clearly, I'll have to call people before they leave their damn houses.
It's better than nursing a headache with some absinthe, which I'm about to do.
Why exactly does Exar have to know elements of Makashi?! If it's not mentioned anywhere, then, why would he? Because he uses one hand on a double bladed lightsaber? http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=232&page=06 , http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=232&page=07 , http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=232&page=08 , http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=232&page=09 . Whoa!! Maul knows Makashi too!!!
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Now since this is ONLY a lightsaber fight, Windu can't use his shatterpoint.
The starting post says "no offensive force powers". Shatterpoint is just Mace's way to look at certain situations, things, opponents.
And Depa defeating Ulic? Seriously. This is a SHEER Lightsaber battle, in which Ulic would take out Depa, and Kun would take out Mace after a long fight, or at the very most, Ulic would take out Depa and help Kun finish Mace. Or Ulic and Mace stalemate while Kun tools Depa and finishes off Mace.
Do you have any arguments, dude.
It's a fact that Mace, Kun and Ulic were all lightsaber prodigies. But unless Kun and Ulic Mace did have five decades of training with 40 years to perfect his own lightsaber style. How would Ulic and Kun be better ? Answer: They won't.
And Mace himself stated that Depa's bladework did surpass his own Vaapad meaning that in a sheer lightsaber fight without any force powers involved (e.g. Mace's Shatterpoint) Depa would be able to defeat him.
So I have some arguments why Depa and Mace would take it while you have nothing to say that Ulic and Exar would win. Think about it.
No, but it's definite icing on the cake. Mace could throw something like 6 punches before Kar could even blink. That speaks for his speed. He could hold off Sidious' lightning. That says a lot for both his strength in the force and physically. He also has mastered one if not the deadliest style of combat.
The biggest problem would be the cohesion between the two Vaapad masters, best friends and master and apprentice. Exar may have the raw skill to take Mace, given that he tooled a respected and feared Jedi Master... However, Ulic's case might be a bit shaky at the moment.
We've seen him hold off the Cathar Jedi while separated from the force. With more information we could quantify his disadvantage and put this into perspective... but for now I'd give this to Mace and Depa, if only barely and if only for their cohesion.
It's a fact that Mace, Kun and Ulic were all lightsaber prodigies. But unless Kun and Ulic Mace did have five decades of training with 40 years to perfect his own lightsaber style. How would Ulic and Kun be better ? Answer: They won't.
Ulic did stalemate Exar Kun ( who as we know, perfected his unique form of double bladed fighting) who not too long after killed a Jedi master who had 600 years to practice and perfect his duelling style.
What I am trying to get at is, if you were able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that so easily defeated a 600 year old battlemaster, then who's to say that you yourself weren't a lightsaber master aswell?
meaning that in a sheer lightsaber fight without any force powers involved (e.g. Mace's Shatterpoint) Depa would be able to defeat him.
Given the circumstances (that the opponents CAN use the force to augment their fighting style) then how can Depa capitalize on the fact that she has better "bladework?" Afterall with the force, Ulic was able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that easily defeated a 600 year old Jedi master duelist. Without the force, he lasted against an angry Cathar Jedi.
Depa and Mace may of been excellent duelists of their time, but so what? The omniscient narrator described Ulic and Kun as "master swordsmen." The author of the comics just did not decide to explore all the details of each of their forms.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Ulic did stalemate Exar Kun ( who as we know, perfected his unique form of double bladed fighting) who not too long after killed a Jedi master who had [b]600 years to practice and perfect his duelling style.What I am trying to get at is, if you were able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that so easily defeated a 600 year old battlemaster, then who's to say that you yourself weren't a lightsaber master aswell?
Given the circumstances (that the opponents CAN use the force to augment their fighting style) then how can Depa capitalize on the fact that she has better "bladework?" Afterall with the force, Ulic was able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that easily defeated a 600 year old Jedi master duelist. Without the force, he lasted against an angry Cathar Jedi.
Depa and Mace may of been excellent duelists of their time, but so what? The omniscient narrator described Ulic and Kun as "master swordsmen." The author of the comics just did not decide to explore all the details of each of their forms. [/B]
Depa did have better bladework than Mace (who perfected Vaapad, one if not the deadliest form of fighting), who not too long after beat the Sith Lord that a 900 year old Jedi Master couldn't. See how stupid it sounds?
Well, sure Ulic is a prodigy, but, all your reasoning is off. Okay, also, Kun didn't easily defeat Vodo. It was a long fight.
Better bladework is huge in a lightsaber fight, it's basically the most important thing, don't diminish it. Ulic has shown us nothing in the force beyond Depa, either.
Exactly. I'm pretty sure we also have quotes of Mace and Depa being master swords(wo)men. The specifics we do know about their style of combat is that it is one of the deadliest forms, and it is even more effective against the dark side.
The fight was described as epic, which suggests that it was pretty close. Kun also had many advantages on his side. Kun was also never actually able to outduel Vodo either, but had to actually break Vodo's stick.
All that fight suggest about Kun is that his physical strength was immense, and that he wasn't able to win through sheer dueling skill even with the countless advantages he had, and had to use one of Vodo's disadvantages (his inferior staff) to win.
[B]Depa did have better bladework than Mace (who perfected Vaapad, one if not the deadliest form of fighting), who not too long after beat the Sith Lord that a 900 year old Jedi Master couldn't. See how stupid it sounds?p
Depa having better bladework is an opinion from Mace, not fact. It's Mace's biased opinion towards his 'daughter like figure.' The fact that she has "better bladework" is never demonstrated.
Ulic on the otherhand was actually shown to tie Exar Kun. What has Depa Bilaba demonstrated? You're arguments are based on someone's opinions while my argument (that Ulic is stronger) is based on the fact he tied Exar Kun.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's not definitive what are you talking about? Kun and Ulic were #1 and #2 in an order of thousands. I never said they would curbstomp anybody but Kun is equal to or better than Mace, and Ulic is at best on Mace's level.
Wow. Mace and Depa were most likely number #2 and #3 (in terms of sheer lightsaber handling ablity) in an order of 10,000 people that were all trained from infancy on in contrary to the TOTJ era people (see Ruusan Reformation + Jedi vs Sith comics). So what ?
Ulic did stalemate Exar Kun ( who as we know, perfected his unique form of double bladed fighting) who not too long after killed a Jedi master who had 600 years to practice and perfect his duelling style.What I am trying to get at is, if you were able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that so easily defeated a 600 year old battlemaster, then who's to say that you yourself weren't a lightsaber master aswell?
Oh my...Exar "perfected" his own fighting style in less than six months without ever using it in any form of lightsaber action (training, direct confrontation) ? How good must Mace be then having 40 years of time to perfect his style, multiple opponents to spare with (Dooku, Yoda) and possibly thousands of hours practice fights against Depa aside from his normal combat action which was enough to give him a legendary status ? Hmm ?
And I'd like you to show me were Vodo's duelling skills are mentioned. Was he a prodigy ? Did he face any serious lightsaber fights ? Mace was able to go toe to toe with Yoda in terms of lightsaber duels who is just the "most powerful Jedi ever" up to the time of ROTS (meaning more powerful than Vodo or anybody Kun faced), destroyed "legions" of Dark Siders before and was able to keep anybody in the order (including notorious lightsaber duellist like Dooku, who could defeat council members without any use of the force) under his belt. Hmm...
Given the circumstances (that the opponents CAN use the force to augment their fighting style) then how can Depa capitalize on the fact that she has better "bladework?" Afterall with the force, Ulic was able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that easily defeated a 600 year old Jedi master duelist. Without the force, he lasted against an angry Cathar Jedi.
Whoopie. Let's just ignore how Depa was the second youngest Jedi Master ever (after Mace) as well as the second youngest Council Member. I guess she has no force powers at all. Especially since "bladework" most likely includes everything needed for lightsaber combat (like augmenting her combat abilities) and the skills she displayed in Shatterpoint.
Really. If you want to argue like this I could just say that the on panel actions show Ulic and Kun hacking at everybody else like ROTJ Luke "baseball bat" Skywalker did when he freaked out against Vader meaning that they won't even be a threat for Mace and Depa in terms of sheer lightsaber abilities...
Depa and Mace may of been excellent duelists of their time, but so what? The omniscient narrator described Ulic and Kun as "master swordsmen." The author of the comics just did not decide to explore all the details of each of their forms.
Wow. Let's create some senseless "arguments".
In order to use Vaapad you have to master form IV, VI and VII. So what were Depa and Mace ? No "masters" ? And the author of the comics doesn't explore the details of their forms because the "forms" didn't exist when the comics were written. Still they are very clearly shown to use form V since they fight similar to Luke (both hands at their blade, wide and powerful swings) as it can be seen in their duel as well as in the Ulic vs Cay fight and Kun's duel against Vodo.
Kun introduces some other elements in his form (most likely Makashi that's what the inventors of the lightsaber forms are suggesting at least) while fighting with his unique weapon. Still...what would that do to people who mastered 5 forms (I, IV, V, VII, Vaapad) and have seen all other forms of lightsaber combat in action and spared against them (at least Mace) multiple times (Dooku - form II).
The mere fact that we have only lightsaber prodigies involved in this fight when the two PT people had much more actual training time and after this far more time to perfect there force powers and lightsaber abilities (aside from more actual action and sparing fights) simply dictates that the people with more experience, training and actual combat experience will win. This is not even thinking about the advantage Depa and Mace have because of having mastered the "main style" (form V) of their opponents and Mace's Shatterpoint ability.