Beyonder vs The Presence, Yahweh, TOAA.

Originally posted by bigbran
Nope your not wrong. It said that, but the thing is, that bb has never shown anything that shows other wise. He can fight thor, hulk, glads, in h2h.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
So the conclusion is that the beyonder cannot beat the presence or TOAA

Well, it may be inconclusive. I've been thinking more on the subject. Let me start off with an example. In my own house...I am an omnipotent being. I arrange my living space the way I want it. If I don't like something..such as a picture...I can toss it out on a whim. The object is powerless against my judgment and actions. The picture can do nothing in retaliation. Everything in my house is in the order that I deem necessary. So, again...in regards to my own house..and the objects I possess...I am omnipotent..the TOAA of my own house. However, that only applies to my house. Unfortunately, when I go to work...my omnipotence ends. I am subject to a boss who can fire me in an instant if he deems it necessary. So, even though I am omnipotent in a sense...in my own household...it doesn't mean that I am completely omnipotent in every facet of my life.

The TOAA is omnipotent in the multiverse. Everything is subject to him...and he has the power to arrange or destroy anything that he sees fit. Nothing in the Marvel multiverse would be capable of resisting his will.

The Beyonder, on the other hand, exists in a reality outside the multiverse that TOAA controls. TOAA can not enforce his will upon something that is not his or something that is not under his power to control. Does this mean that the Beyonder is indeed more powerful than the TOAA....no, it doesn't mean that at all.

For instance....my brother is much richer than I am. He owns stuff that I've only dreamed of owning. I have no power to control what he buys or does not buy with his money. On the other hand...he does not have the power to control any facet of my life either. My brother may have a greater aura about him...and a bigger reputation than I do...but, that does not make him omnipotent over me. Do you see what I'm saying? I believe the TOAA and the Beyonder would be powerless against each other. It doesn't matter that the Beyonder may be the Sum of everything else....that does not prove his omnipotence is on a higher degree than the TOAA's.

My final point is that omnipotence can be lost. I can easily lose my house and my possessions if someone comes in and takes it from me by force. If I am defeated, then I am no longer the master of my own possessions, someone else is. In the case with the TOAA and the Beyonder....the only way to know who is more powerful is to have them actually battle....case closed. On panel feats mean nothing when you have two supreme beings like that. If the Beyonder can subdue TOAA by himself, then the Beyonder would indeed be more powerful....but, we will never see that battle now. The point is...there are degrees of omnipotence. LIke i said..my omnipotence does not carry on past my own house....that is the limit of my omnipotence. The limit of TOAA's omnipotence is the Marvel multiverse. Beyonder's omnipotence is limited to everything else. Only be force can omnipotence be relinquished. We never saw the TOAA and the Beyonder battle...so, we'll never truly know who's omnipotence is greater...or on a higher degree.

I'll get back to this later...i need sleep..lol.....but for now....TOAA vs Beyonder is inconclusive as is. Thanos even with the Heart is not truly omnipotent..he was still under the control of the TOAA. Can the HOTU hurt the Beyonder...maybe..maybe not....we'll never know...it can only be speculated.

IF TOAA is the artist that created Marvel's fiction, then he can beat Beyonder, because even if Beyonder is beyond Marvel's order, he is not beyond Marvel's fiction.

However, the Presence and Yaheweh are NOT the artists that created DC, they are in fact characters who BELONG to the DC fiction.

Therefore, Classic Beyonder would most likely kick both thier sorry asses. ✅

One more point before I retire for the night..lol It was stated that the Beyonder was the Sum of everything else outside the Marvel multiverse...or in essence..that is what it stated....i have not actually read the comic where that statement is from. That statement is grounds for a lawsuit if it is not worded correctly...and it could be the reason the Beyonder was ret-conned. The statement would imply that the Beyonder was beyond anything in DC or any other comic line. Since Marvel has no jurisdiction over DC...such a statement can not be made.

For example...the Pizza Hut motto is.."The best pizza under ONE roof" ONE is the key word in that motto...that word is what keeps that motto LEGAL....Pizza Hut can not say...."The best pizza under ANY roof".....that would imply that their pizza was better than any other pizza chain. Of course Pizza Hut believes that...but, they can not legally advertise like that. I used to work for pizza hut years ago....so, i understand that semantics of advertising...lol

For legal reasons...Marvel can not state that the Beyonder was the essence of everything else outside the Marvel multiverse.

These are just my conclusions....I am not as well versed in comics as Mr. Master and probably many others on this site...but i do read them occasionally and I do a lot of research on characters..or I try to anyway when I have time. So, if I'm wrong.....feel free to correct me...as I'm sure many of you will...lol.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
IF TOAA is the artist that created Marvel's fiction, then he can beat Beyonder, because even if Beyonder is beyond Marvel's order, he is not beyond Marvel's fiction.

However, the Presence and Yaheweh are NOT the artists that created DC, they are in fact characters who BELONG to the DC fiction.

Therefore, Classic Beyonder would most likely kick both thier sorry asses. ✅

DC does not allude to their writers being gods like Marvel has done. However, what could the Presence be? The Presence of a WRITER perhaps. There is some Presence in DC that above every thing else....so, why can't the Presence be the writer.....all we can do is speculate anyway..lol.

Anyway, the Presence is the Supreme Being of DC. The only way to know who would win is to see TOAA vs Presence.....but, you will never see that in a crossover...and have it become canon. In a crossover...it would only be a stalemate. Neither company would allow their supreme being to lose to the competitor.

Look, TOAA is omniscient. TOAA orchestrated the entire HOTU event because he knew exactly how Thanos would respond. That shows that he has absolute knowledge of the future otherwise he never would have allowed Thanos to obtain that level of power. That level of omniscience means that he knew the Beyonder was going to cross over into his domain, and yet he did nothing to stop him. And because it was within his domain, he could have stopped him just like you could bar your front door if you didn't want your brother in your house in the first place. He allowed the Beyonder to cross over because he knew that the Beyonder wasn't a threat to him.

The Beyonder on the other hand, is not omniscient. He may know everything from the present and the past and a limited ability to sense the future, but he showed that he does not have ABSOLUTE knowledge of the future when he destroyed Multi-Death. If he had absolute knowledge, he never would have done that in the first place and then had to correct his mistake. He also showed a lack of omniscience when he was defeated by Dr. Doom. And before anyone yells PIS, if it was the case, it would only demonstrate the fact the he is subject to the laws that are laid down by TOAA. If he was really immune to the laws of TOAA, PIS would never be an issue, because he wouldn't have been subject to the plot of the story.

The omniscience demonstrated by TOAA to is a feat superior to anything that the beyonder accomplished(we all agree that TOAA could have destroyed MULTI-DEATH, right). Levels of power on the forum are determined for the most part by the feats shown by the combatants. Which all adds up to TOAA FTW.

Originally posted by galan7777777
geeze.........its not even worth dragging this on anymore, u cant provide proof that toaa can defeat beyonder, and i cant provide proof that beyonder can beat toaa.......when all is said and done, does it really friggin matter? its a comic book lol

TOAA fights dirty.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Therefore, Classic Beyonder would most likely kick both thier sorry asses. ✅

Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder was Millions of times greater than that Multi-verse he was outside of.

What's left?

Nothing.

You've just defined the limits of the Beyonder by measuring him as millions of time greater than the mulitverse. Therefore he is below The One Above All who is as his name states.

If I have a snow globe, and within the snow globe I place Metroplex and tell the Transformers that Metroplex is the extent of their universe, with multiple levels of course, and then place enough meltedHe-Man in the snow globe separate from Metroplex to fill it up, He-Man is the Beyonder. To melted He-Man, he is the everything outside of Metroplex. But he's still not beyond the one who holds the snow globe.

The One Above All isn't just a name, it is what it is. Beyonder is merely beyond the multiverse. TOAA is truly omnipresent meaning that the multi-verse and what's outside the multi-verse is a part of him. He is above all limits, logic, chaos. Like a dominant personality in an schizo.

Originally posted by Jesse7
P.S. During the time Pre-Retcon Beyonder was made, the writtes at the time stated that the beyonder was the manifestation and representation of the writters of the comic/s, in that they were beyond anything in the comic and had absolute control of everything.

So going by that it really comes down to the writters who were writting at the time Vs. Stan Lee.

This makes no sense as everything on the page is a manifestation of the writers/artists. Just like the 9/11 issue of Avenger's. The Marvel heroes didn't really care when Juggernaut tore down a Tower while fighting X-Force + Spider-Man. But when the event occurred in our world, it seriously affected the writers/artist and it was represented in that issue.

Marvel is a shared universe, if the investor's all choose to pull out, then Marvel would die, let's see the Beyonder come into the board room to stop that. They are beyond even the writer's but for all intents and purpose's the current editorial staff, etc are TOAA. If they choose to attribute a particular face to their presence then so-be-it, and they can change it whenever they want to.

nvrbeenwthagirl and darthgoober have the right of it.

Originally posted by lft4ded
You've just defined the limits of the Beyonder by measuring him as millions of time greater than the mulitverse. Therefore he is below The One Above All who is as his name states.

If I have a snow globe, and within the snow globe I place Metroplex and tell the Transformers that Metroplex is the extent of their universe, with multiple levels of course, and then place enough meltedHe-Man in the snow globe separate from Metroplex to fill it up, He-Man is the Beyonder. To melted He-Man, he is the everything outside of Metroplex. But he's still not beyond the one who holds the snow globe.

The One Above All isn't just a name, it is what it is. Beyonder is merely beyond the multiverse. TOAA is truly omnipresent meaning that the multi-verse and what's outside the multi-verse is a part of him. He is above all limits, logic, chaos. Like a dominant personality in an schizo.

This makes no sense as everything on the page is a manifestation of the writers/artists. Just like the 9/11 issue of Avenger's. The Marvel heroes didn't really care when Juggernaut tore down a Tower while fighting X-Force + Spider-Man. But when the event occurred in our world, it seriously affected the writers/artist and it was represented in that issue.

Marvel is a shared universe, if the investor's all choose to pull out, then Marvel would die, let's see the Beyonder come into the board room to stop that. They are beyond even the writer's but for all intents and purpose's the current editorial staff, etc are TOAA. If they choose to attribute a particular face to their presence then so-be-it, and they can change it whenever they want to.

nvrbeenwthagirl and darthgoober have the right of it.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Pre-Retcon Beyonder for the win, its just that one panel's narration about being billions or was it millions of times more powerful then all the multiverse combined, thats what convinces me he is above TOAA.

P.S. During the time Pre-Retcon Beyonder was made, the writtes at the time stated that the beyonder was the manifestation and representation of the writters of the comic/s, in that they were beyond anything in the comic and had absolute control of everything.

So going by that it really comes down to the writters who were writting at the time Vs. Stan Lee.

There are ways to meassure the wrtiers/TOAA's power, and also a way to messure Yahweh (from Vertigo)'s power.

TOAA is the name invented by Jim Starlin (First mentioned in Infinity Gauntlet series) TOAA is supose to God represent or the wrtiers of the comic. (Jack Kirby's version that god is the "creator" of the series)
If the author choses to give all his power to a comic character, than he would equal the writer in terms of power right?
Thanos wih the Heart was God, stated over and over again.
He used it to it max potential and destroyed the Multi-verse.
However the Mega-verse survived, as you could see Death survived.

Beyonder had the power ro destroy the Multi-verse and every character in the comics back then agreed. He also killed Death, and you can only kill her if you erease her from the Mega-verse.

Beyonder >> Thanos w/ THOTU = God = Writer = Jim Starlin

Now the Writer cannot be stoped huh?
What about the Great Evil Beast, that swamp thing sure shut it up.
So the writer (Yahweh) needed help to defeated himself?
From feats and statements, Beyonder have this one in the Bag.
Beyonder >> TGEB = Yahweh = Writier

TOAA, Presence and Yahweh maybe writers.
But Beyonder was Stan Lee.

Here is other members that agree with me:

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Classic Beyonder would take this ALONE:

1)Possess the power of the comic book writers- Stan Lee himself said that Classic Beyonder was supposed to represent the power the Writers had over the characters, the universes, the reality itself,etc. The ability to create and erase or change the "story" to any way he wants it to be.

2)Has millions of times the power of the Marvel Multiverse- Does this need any further explanations?

3)Has Infinite Reality Warping Ability- more flexible than IG or even HOTU.

4)Has the Absolute Ability to VIOLATE multiverses- thier laws, thier concepts, thier order....means NOTHING to Classic Beyonder. The Presence, TOAA.....there laws and power means nothing to Classic Beyonder, who is the embodyment of Absolute Power itself.

Guys be realistic. The Classic Beyonder could turn The Great Evil Beast into toilet paper if he wanted to. WHY? Because the Great Evil Beast is a factual entity that belongs to DC/Vertigo.....it is a SERIOUS construct of that entire existance.

Classic Beyonder exceeds existance, he exceeds seriousness. HE is like a child with the power to rewrite the comic book however the hell he wanted to. He can VIOLATE DC/Vertigo's existance the way he did Marvel's.

Classic Beyonder is the ultamate in uber cheesy powerful characters, and he is basically unbeatable...unless he WANTED to be beaten. He'd definately destroy, erase, duplicate, shit on, copy, eat, swallow, WHATEVER he wanted to do...to the GEB....and with Thanos with HOTU?????That's just overkill !

1) Yes I am aware, GEB is equal to Presence.

2) Classic Beyonder is NOT all knowing....true that ! Infact he wanted to know what DESIRE was. IMAGINE THAT ! A being so rediculously power he never wanted anything before, cuz everything he ever wanted he already had or could easily get .

3) His actions are unnecessary when you compare then to what the creators of Classic Beyonder said themselves about thier own character. The above descriptions are VALID regardless of whether or not they annoy you.

The Great Evil Beast is a serious part of DC/Vertigo's structure. GEB "belongs" to DC/Vertigo. Classic Beyonder is not a part of Marvel's structure. In fact he VIOLATES it.....he is an OUTSIDER even to Marvel's set existance. He can violate abd manipulate DC/Vertigo as easy as he did Marvel.

Classic Beyonder is not a serious character either....he's not like GEB who plays a major role in DC/Vertigo's existance. Classic Beyonder plays NO ROLE, in fact he should never have been in Marvel's multiverse, he doesn't belong there....THAT's the WHOLE POINT.

Classic Beyonder had NO RIGHT to do what he did to the Marvel Multiverse. BUT HE DID.......Laws, Orders, Structures, Reality, Fantasy.....all the same shit to Classic Beyonder....

To Classic Beyonder reality is the same thing as grass, rules are the same thing as toilet paper, EXISTANCE is just a COMIC BOOK to him....what part of this aren't you getting?

There was a retcon, he was depowered so much that Living Tribunal was able to trap him in a secluded reality away from Marvel's main universes.

You say Classic Beyonder couldn't kill Death? I'd like to see the scan where he was unable to do so. Are you certain he wasn't just toying with her? Are you even talkn about him, or Thanos with HOTU?

Pre-retcon Beyonder had limits to his power. When Phoenix was 'returning' his power to him, he proved unable to turn away, narration, or to force her to stop. He said that he was unsure he could re-create Death before Death was destroyed. How could he be unsure of his ability to do this unless he's less than omnipotent.

When speaking with the X-Men he spoke of unknowns and his fear of facing it. He spoke of envy and was unsure if he and the X-Men would meet again. Beyonder, by his admission, isn't omniscient. He has failings such as fear and envy. Beyonder isn't above all.

The Beyonder is a pawn of the writer's to make a good story.

You know the more I think about it, the more I realize just how ridiculus this battle is(no offense to Juntai, this probably needed to be covered). TOAA has INFINITE power in Marvel. Not the illusion of infinite power as granted by the infinity gems, but actual infinite power. Now the funny thing about infinity is that it's a constant. You cannot subtract from it, divide it, add to it, or multiply it because the answer is always the same. The Beyonder on the other hand does not have infinite power at his desposal. This is proven when he destroys Multi-Death. Right before he does it he tells Dave "Alot of my power is in that cup", now, if he had infinite power at his desposal, he would have said "not even a fraction of my power is in that cup", because a fraction of infinity is infinity. His power was limited by the writters and company, who is TOAA.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Here is other members that agree with me:

Oh wait that means you just invalidated your claim.

Drats! You foiled Thanos_THOTU again Logic. Curse you Logic!

---

Whats funny , trully funny is that TOAA is literally the one who calls the shots in Marvel(the company not the multiverse). They only publish what they want to happen.

But I'll be damned impressed when a character is capable of killing their creator... or anyone else in their creator's world...

Spoiler:
Paranoia Agent much?

Oops, sorry darthgoober. 🙂

Originally posted by lft4ded
Oops, sorry darthgoober. 🙂

You've just defined the limits of the Beyonder by measuring him as millions of time greater than the mulitverse. Therefore he is below The One Above All who is as his name states.

If I have a snow globe, and within the snow globe I place Metroplex and tell the Transformers that Metroplex is the extent of their universe, with multiple levels of course, and then place enough meltedHe-Man in the snow globe separate from Metroplex to fill it up, He-Man is the Beyonder. To melted He-Man, he is the everything outside of Metroplex. But he's still not beyond the one who holds the snow globe.

The One Above All isn't just a name, it is what it is. Beyonder is merely beyond the multiverse. TOAA is truly omnipresent meaning that the multi-verse and what's outside the multi-verse is a part of him. He is above all limits, logic, chaos. Like a dominant personality in an schizo.

This makes no sense as everything on the page is a manifestation of the writers/artists. Just like the 9/11 issue of Avenger's. The Marvel heroes didn't really care when Juggernaut tore down a Tower while fighting X-Force + Spider-Man. But when the event occurred in our world, it seriously affected the writers/artist and it was represented in that issue.

And Beyonder did care for much?

Marvel is a shared universe, if the investor's all choose to pull out, then Marvel would die, let's see the Beyonder come into the board room to stop that. They are beyond even the writer's but for all intents and purpose's the current editorial staff, etc are TOAA. If they choose to attribute a particular face to their presence then so-be-it, and they can change it whenever they want to.

Beyonder was represented the power of the writers as well, but he was not Multi-versal bonded.

nvrbeenwthagirl and darthgoober have the right of it.

Originally posted by lft4ded
[B]Pre-retcon Beyonder had limits to his power. When Phoenix was 'returning' his power to him, he proved unable to turn away, narration, or to force her to stop. He said that he was unsure he could re-create Death before Death was destroyed. How could he be unsure of his ability to do this unless he's less than omnipotent.

Originally posted by charlemagne9746
[B]That statement is grounds for a lawsuit if it is not worded correctly...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
He is the One Above All, which is not a name, but a title.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Because he is the only being above the Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
You are talking about a character that isn't Marvel anymmore.
The "Pre-retcon Beyonder" is not Marvel anymore.
Thats the whole point with reconned characters.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
No it would be something like this.
Your snowglobe is the Multi-verse. Beyonder are created outside the Globe,

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
he enter the Glode destroys it and leave...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So are you God of anyhing anymore? He destroyed your Multi-verse (which the Beyonder was capable of) are you still a God, even though you have nothing to be "God" over?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
What are you saying merely Beyond the Multi-verses.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg
He was all there was inside the Multi-verse and outside the Multi-verse.
If TOAA is the dominant personality in a schizo, than Beyonder is somehing like epilepsy,

Now I'm positive you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Especially since schizophrenia is not MPD or Disasosiative Identity disorder.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
no matter what if Beyonder want the person to fall down on the floor and look stupid he does it.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
And Beyonder did care for much?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Beyonder was represented the power of the writers as well, but he was not Multi-versal bonded.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
No, they havent.