the 12,000 man 501st temple purge

Originally posted by darthsith19
Ah, glad to see there's a good debator here siding with me. Glad to see you, Borbarad! 🙂

So, according to you, one Clone who has been training for 20 years will be able to take out AOTC Anakin since he's only been training for 10 years just because the Clone has more years of training. Interesting. Also note that the Clones of ROTS have only been training for 12-13 years, and that's only if they were in the first batch of Clones created, so not alot longer than some of the Younglings.

1. i forgot about the growth acceleration thing
2. the 501'st is the most elite legion in the army
3. i said they had more experience in battle
4. i nvr said they would win
5. but i nvr said they would lose

Because arbitrary numbers used for the purpose of a KMC versus fight mean jack shit for ROTS. Anakin did kill the numbers in the Council Room as far as we know and that were how many ? 6 ? Who did completely thrust him as well ?

It doesn't mean shit, you say 1000 Younglings can beat 1000 501st Commandos. Even if he wasn't attacked by 1000 Younglings right away, in ROTS you see a huge corridor full of dead Younglings. If so poweful are they, then why did not storm Vader.

So, according to you, one Clone who has been training for 20 years will be able to take out AOTC Anakin since he's only been training for 10 years just because the Clone has more years of training. Interesting. Also note that the Clones of ROTS have only been training for 12-13 years, and that's only if they were in the first batch of Clones created, so not alot longer than some of the Younglings.

Bogus. Anakin already has Jedi-like reflexes (remarked by Qui-Gon himself). And he is not some ordinary Jedi. Obi-Wan just had to teach him the Force and how to swing a lightsaber (he already has the reflexes). Third, how are the clones of ROTS been training only for 12 years? Then what did they do for 7 years year of their life, twidling their fingers 😂 They have been training for life.

the younglings would be told to hide as they are most likely to survive and preseve the order, afterall the jedi aren't going to send in untrained younglings who dont even have masters to fight, thats like sending 8 year old kids to fight in iraq or something. it doesn't work.

Correct.

The point is the Younglings are not really going to do anything except hide and try to escape. Even if they might block some clone fire, they will be overwhelmed. The 501st will work with one another well enough to destroy theh Younglings. I am not saying the Younglings are useless, but they cannot fight like a Jedi or even a Padawan.

Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
borbarad, your a hypocrite. you say that 6 younglings can take out a clone with the force then you say that a jedi master who is on the council is killed because he has limited co-ordination. is it me or does that sound a bit like a contradiction?

Do you see any difference between getting backstapped on the battle field by your own troups and getting ambushed in your own Headquarter by an enemy army ?

ki would be more in tune with the force and a better swordsman than a 4-8 year old youngling, so how are even 6 going to take down a clone who WILL have backup, they would work (most realistically) in a group or four or 6, that way they can wipe out jedi and offer defense against ambush.

You didn't get the picture, dude. Advent did say that there would be 1000 Clones going to face 6000 younglings. So...6 on 1 in favor for the force using and lightsaber wielding faction here.

the fact is that younglings dont use real lightsabers, they use training sabers to get used to bloking bolts.

The fact that this is bullshit as I have proven doesn't mean anything to you, correct ?

the remote training droids dont fire as fast and as powerfully as a war-harderned clone would. thier balsters can punch holes through people.

Yes. Because energy beams tend to have so much mass, correct ?

the younglings would be told to hide as they are most likely to survive and preseve the order, afterall the jedi aren't going to send in untrained younglings who dont even have masters to fight, thats like sending 8 year old kids to fight in iraq or something. it doesn't work.

You are again comparing your typical child to people who are trained for such situations from childhood on.

the last thing is that obi-wan and yoda survived because thier a little more skilled and wise than a youngling and have been through the enitre clone wars, also not every youngling is as powerufl as others, is that padawan on the bail organa scence as powerful as yoda?

Obi-Wan was possibly the Jedi with the smallest force potential as he was almost singled out from the Order because of that fact. So what ?

look at the geonosian areana, all the jedi who died used the form niman, which in case you didn't know, is an all round form but you dont specialise in any other skill like deflection (the bull looking jedi who jumps onto the balcony in ATOC uses niman and look what happened to him by the clones donor (and proberlly weapons instructor and trainer). only the important charactors of the saga survived, the other 190 died. so based on that fact, guess who many jedi in the temple will use niman, including younglings, who btw, lean shii-cho, which is for disarming an opponent, not for deflecting blaster bolts like soresu.

You again are ignoring the fact that they didn't die because they used Niman but because of the fact that they were horribly outnumbered by battle droids. And please act as if only Soresu users can block blasters - hilarious. I guess this is why we have seen Kit Fisto (form I user) doing it, correct ?

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
It doesn't mean shit, you say 1000 Younglings can beat 1000 501st Commandos. Even if he wasn't attacked by 1000 Younglings right away, in ROTS you see a huge corridor full of dead Younglings. If so poweful are they, then why did not storm Vader.

Whoopie. Because they recognized Vader as their own great hero of the Clone Wars and didn't even think that he would possibly attack them. Aside of this...a huge corridor full of dead Younglings ? Yeah...I only see some people lying in each Corridor, most of them Padawans and Knights because they told the Younglings to hide in the Council Chamber where Anakin slaughtered most of them. And you seem to forget that this was Anakin + almost 10,000 Clones vs the remains of the Jedi (50 % of 10,000 people from TPM alive, most of them not on Coruscant at this time).

Here we do have the situation of equal numbers between Jedi and Clones which did - sorry to say - never happen before.

Bogus. Anakin already has Jedi-like reflexes (remarked by Qui-Gon himself). And he is not some ordinary Jedi. Obi-Wan just had to teach him the Force and how to swing a lightsaber (he already has the reflexes). Third, how are the clones of ROTS been training only for 12 years? Then what did they do for 7 years year of their life, twidling their fingers 😂 They have been training for life.

Somebody seems to have forgotten about the altered aging process of the Clones, huh ? It's precisely said that they are trained for 10 years and then they received additional 2 years of experience during the Clone Wars. So 12 years pretty much nails it.

And wow...You think that the regular Jedi child doesn't possess Jedi-like reflexes ?

The point is the Younglings are not really going to do anything except hide and try to escape. Even if they might block some clone fire, they will be overwhelmed. The 501st will work with one another well enough to destroy theh Younglings. I am not saying the Younglings are useless, but they cannot fight like a Jedi or even a Padawan.

Yes. I suppose 6-12 years of force training and lightsaber practice don't mean jack shit and they will just be slaughtered. Oh wait...did you read "Unknown Soldier" where a mere Youngling (Allara) manages to force pull one of Grievous lightsabers out of his hand ? I guess when they can disarm some cyborg with a mechanical grip, disarming clones is not beyond them.

Not that anybody really cares because 6,000 Masters, Knights and Padawans are pretty much enough to deal with 12,000 Clones...

Originally posted by Lyoko Saver
1. i forgot about the growth acceleration thing
2. the 501'st is the most elite legion in the army
3. i said they had more experience in battle
4. i nvr said they would win
5. but i nvr said they would lose

501st most elite legion
anikin most force potential
obi wan 3rd strongest dude in order (i think)
yoda strongest dude in order
younglins jedi in trainin

Originally posted by Borbarad
Do you see any difference between getting backstapped on the battle field by your own troups and getting ambushed in your own Headquarter by an enemy army ?

You didn't get the picture, dude. Advent did say that there would be 1000 Clones going to face 6000 younglings. So...6 on 1 in favor for the force using and lightsaber wielding faction here.

The fact that this is [b]bullshit as I have proven doesn't mean anything to you, correct ?

Yes. Because energy beams tend to have so much mass, correct ?

You are again comparing your typical child to people who are trained for such situations from childhood on.

Obi-Wan was possibly the Jedi with the smallest force potential as he was almost singled out from the Order because of that fact. So what ?

You again are ignoring the fact that they didn't die because they used Niman but because of the fact that they were horribly outnumbered by battle droids. And please act as if only Soresu users can block blasters - hilarious. I guess this is why we have seen Kit Fisto (form I user) doing it, correct ? [/B]

1. no becuase ki adi was able to stop... look at them... realise what thier about to do and then defend against five troops. and he is better than six younglings. even if they were able to take out one clone then they would have to deal with his "team"(other people watching his back, as he watches thiers). it doesn't work.

2. same as point 1.

3. the only bullshit thing here is your fanboyism towards younglings. the only difference if all the jedi were there is that they would take longer to die as theirs more of them.

4. energy beams from remote droids are different from blaster bolts from a rifle. for example, imagine being punched by a 10 year ols kid if your about twenty. now imagine being hit by a car traveling at about 30mph. it an exaggeration but it works. remote droids are differrent because they are designed for practice, rifles are designed to kill people. if you wathc it when ki dies, his saber is pushed back on the shot before hes hit. i cant imagine a youngling remote training droid doing that. and if it could push an adult's saber (a council member who wouldn have had years of experience) back then what chance would a youngling have of defending a bolt back. none.

5. point is partly the same as above. to add thorugh, a youngling isn't going to be compared to a jedi knight or even padawan. the fact is that they would, logically, be studying about history and practicing against toy energy bolts, not against battle-hardened soldiers who have baster rifles that would blast wholes through them.

6. i was pointing out that a jedi master is better than a yougling and even thinking that a training saber would do anything to a war hardened troop with heavy armour is stupid. they may have been trained from near birth but thier not going to be training physically against a war hardened soldier. they may be learning how to use the force and reading about history and other topics that relate to thier jedi life but they wouldn't have even been or thier first mission yet.

7. they were out numbered but ALL the jedi who studided niman and went into the arena DIED, mace and the others survived because they learned other techniques. search it up on the net for more info and you'll see im right. i wasn't trying to say that only soresu users can deflect bolts but its the best example as the form was designed to deflect bolts. other users can but niman users arn't very good at it.

8. stop saying correct, it gives the impression that your unsure about your point and need the reasurrance of other people to justify your point.

9. YOUNGLINGS WOULD BE KILLED AS THIER TOLD TO HIDE BECAUSE THEY CANT FIGHT, THIER 4-8, WOULD YOU SEND 4-8 YEAR OLDS WHO KNOW HOW TO USE A GUN TO IRAQ?

Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
1. no becuase ki adi was able to stop... look at them... realise what thier about to do and then defend against five troops. and he is better than six younglings. even if they were able to take out one clone then they would have to deal with his "team"(other people watching his back, as he watches thiers). it doesn't work.

2. same as point 1.

How about trying to use some logic here, dude ?
Ki-Adi was facing 5 or 6 Clones - not one.
He still managed to take down 2 of those Clones.

So you are not arguing that Ki-Adi would perform better than 6 younglings but more likely 30 younglings (since that would, in the example, be the number of Younglings being assigned to 5 clones).

Given a "team" of Clone Troopers you would have 6 younglings per teammember attacking.

3. the only bullshit thing here is your fanboyism towards younglings. the only difference if all the jedi were there is that they would take longer to die as theirs more of them.

Thanks for ignoring the point. The Younglings wield lightsabers that have their energy levels adjusted to a non-lethal beam which can be adjusted easily. So...you original point that they don't have any chance because of using "training sabers" was bullshit. And no ad hominem argument will cover that.

4. energy beams from remote droids are different from blaster bolts from a rifle. for example, imagine being punched by a 10 year ols kid if your about twenty. now imagine being hit by a car traveling at about 30mph. it an exaggeration but it works. remote droids are differrent because they are designed for practice, rifles are designed to kill people. if you wathc it when ki dies, his saber is pushed back on the shot before hes hit. i cant imagine a youngling remote training droid doing that. and if it could push an adult's saber (a council member who wouldn have had years of experience) back then what chance would a youngling have of defending a bolt back. none.

If you don't have any idea about basic physics why the hell do you bother to argue them with me, huh ? An energy beam doesn't have kynetical energy because they don't possess mass. So how do they exactly "push back" lightsabers ? By your logic you shouldn't be able to switch the light in your room on without getting pushed to the ground by the vast impact energy of the light rays. Yeah...it makes so much sense.

What the younglings have to do here is basically putting a mirror in the way of a sun beam - the destructive force of blaster bolts is only released when they impact on a surface which isn't able to deflect them. See the scene in ANH when Luke and his friends are trapped inside the waste compactor and Han fires his blaster.

5. point is partly the same as above. to add thorugh, a youngling isn't going to be compared to a jedi knight or even padawan. the fact is that they would, logically, be studying about history and practicing against toy energy bolts, not against battle-hardened soldiers who have baster rifles that would blast wholes through them.

Is it so hard to get the point ? We see them being trained in deflecting energy beams with their lightsabers in AotC. This training is only used to enable them to sense / predict that blaster fire. Luke was able to deflect some three-shot-sequence from his training droid after 1 minute of training. How are the younglings going to not be able to do the same, even if the weapon is a real blaster (see above).

It simply doesn't matter what weapons are used against them (as long as they can be deflected with a lightsaber) or how good the aiming of the weapon users is (since they can predict where the next shot is going to hit them).

I do see that a single clone might be able to gun down a single Youngling. But how is one clone going to take six younglings down attacking him at once when they all are capable of deflecting his shots, all are capable of cutting him into pieces and all are able to simply pull the weapon out of his hand via force pull ?

6. i was pointing out that a jedi master is better than a yougling and even thinking that a training saber would do anything to a war hardened troop with heavy armour is stupid.

Yes. Because you have chosen to ignore the fact, that they can simply turn their so called "training sabers" into real (only shorter) lightsabers by turning some button on the hilt. Read Shadowhunter. Kenobi descripes a training fight between him and Darsha and precisely states how it works (turning the energy level of the blade down so that it doesn't harm people any longer).

they may have been trained from near birth but thier not going to be training physically against a war hardened soldier. they may be learning how to use the force and reading about history and other topics that relate to thier jedi life but they wouldn't have even been or thier first mission yet.

Wow. Are you simply ignoring the fact that there training includes basic blade fighting (see form I description) as well as blaster bolt deflection ? Are you simply ignoring the fact that a Clone Trooper has zero defence against force use ? Yes. I guess you do.

7. they were out numbered but ALL the jedi who studided niman and went into the arena DIED, mace and the others survived because they learned other techniques. search it up on the net for more info and you'll see im right. i wasn't trying to say that only soresu users can deflect bolts but its the best example as the form was designed to deflect bolts. other users can but niman users arn't very good at it.

You are again pulling assumptions out of your ass. The Jedi using Niman are not as good in blaster deflection like people using Soresu, Djem So, or Vaapad. Yes. That doesn't mean that they completely suck at it. If you take some look at the background action in the arena you will see what I mean.

9. YOUNGLINGS WOULD BE KILLED AS THIER TOLD TO HIDE BECAUSE THEY CANT FIGHT, THIER 4-8, WOULD YOU SEND 4-8 YEAR OLDS WHO KNOW HOW TO USE A GUN TO IRAQ?

Learn how to type, dude...
And the fitting question would be if I would allow 4-13 year old kids that are trained for combat for their entire lives to defend their home against an invading force. Kids that possess the power to disarm opponents with a flick of their frist, have some basic foresight abilities, can dodge or deflect bullets and - on top of this - will die anyway no matter if they fight or not. Answer: Yes I would possibly send superhuman children with that abilities into battle if I know that they will die no matter what they do.

And if that premise isn't given (meaning in this case the Knights, Masters and Padawans will do it on their own) than there is no reason to discuss the skill of the Younglings.

STOP USING A BUNCH OF LOGICAL SCEINTIFIC FACTS AND NUMBERS TO DESCRPE STUFF IN A SCI FI UNIVERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you

this messege brought to u by

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKINS!!!!

The Clones will win, here's why:

4000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Masters if 1 Jedi Master kills 4 clones before dying. 500 * 4= 2000 losses
So the Masters will be eradicated.

12000-2500= 10000 Clone Troopers remaining

5000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Knights if 1 Jedi kills 1.5 (though not possible in reality, I am taking average between 1 and 2) before dying. 3500 * 1.5 = 5250

10000-5250= 4750

2000 Clones can take care of the Padawans who'll probably kill 2000 Clones before dying.

4750-2000= 2750

!!!! Now this is only the results with the 501st using their blasters !!!!

Since the Clones have heavy artilerry and such, they'll probably kill off the Jedi faster with less casualties.

So in the end, I draw an estimate that 3500 501st will remain to engage the Younglings.

3500 501st Elite Clone Troopers vs. 6000 Younglings

Personally, I take my chances with the Clones but Borbarad says otherwise.

Besides, with Vader, the difference won't be that great. I believe that during Operation Knightfall, Anakin probably would have killed around 100 Jedi plus the Younglings. This is not that great of a difference, so the result would and should remain the same. The Jedi get exterminated though they put a good fight.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
The Clones will win, here's why:

4000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Masters if 1 Jedi Master kills 4 clones before dying. 500 * 4= 2000 losses
So the Masters will be eradicated.

12000-2500= 10000 Clone Troopers remaining

5000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Knights if 1 Jedi kills 1.5 (though not possible in reality, I am taking average between 1 and 2) before dying. 3500 * 1.5 = 5250

10000-5250= 4750

2000 Clones can take care of the Padawans who'll probably kill 2000 Clones before dying.

4750-2000= 2750

!!!! Now this is only the results with the 501st using their blasters !!!!

Since the Clones have heavy artilerry and such, they'll probably kill off the Jedi faster with less casualties.

So in the end, I draw an estimate that 3500 501st will remain to engage the Younglings.

3500 501st Elite Clone Troopers vs. 6000 Younglings

Personally, I take my chances with the Clones but Borbarad says otherwise.

Besides, with Vader, the difference won't be that great. I believe that during Operation Knightfall, Anakin probably would have killed around 100 Jedi plus the Younglings. This is not that great of a difference, so the result would and should remain the same. The Jedi get exterminated though they put a good fight.

the clones should locate the younglings then bomb and shel the crap out of it....on second thought just bomb and shell the whole freakin temple

borbarad, you cant compare real life to a sci-fi MOVIE. it doesn't work. the fact is that the younglings would get killed reguardless of who many they can kill, about 0 IMO. but thats just me.

Originally posted by Lyoko Saver
STOP USING A BUNCH OF LOGICAL SCEINTIFIC FACTS AND NUMBERS TO DESCRPE STUFF IN A SCI FI UNIVERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you

this messege brought to u by

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKINS!!!!

Thanks for you unwanted and meaningless comment. Do you actually remember wha the "SCI" in "SCI-FI" stands for ? Yes ?

borbarad, you cant compare real life to a sci-fi MOVIE. it doesn't work. the fact is that the younglings would get killed reguardless of who many they can kill, about 0 IMO. but thats just me.

I'm comparing the in universe properties of blaster bolts to the - damn it - in universe properties of blaster bolts. The "mirror and sun beams" stuff was just some example. Obviously blaster bolts don't leave dents (or virtually any signs) when hitting an object that deflects them - hence no kynetic energy. You can argue that back and forth and still blocking some Clone blaster rifles is not harder than doing the same thing with a remote droid...

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
The Clones will win, here's why:

4000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Masters if 1 Jedi Master kills 4 clones before dying. 500 * 4= 2000 losses
So the Masters will be eradicated.

What ruin the versus forum has fallen too?

What makes you think a Jedi Master can only take 4 clones? If you look at Geonosis, the 200 Jedi Master and Knights defeated thousands of droids (lets make it an even 15,000 droids although it was probably more). Even if a clone were 5 times better then a droid, each Jedi Master can take at least 15 clones. 15,000 / 5 = 3,000. 3,000 / 200 = 15. That means 7,500 clones are gone right there.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
12000-2500= 10000 Clone Troopers remaining

Actually there are 7,000 clone troopers remaining. 12,000 - 7,500 = 4,500.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
5000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Knights if 1 Jedi kills 1.5 (though not possible in reality, I am taking average between 1 and 2) before dying. 3500 * 1.5 = 5250

This is ridiculous. Jedi Knights defeated dozens of droids a piece at Geonosis. I would say that each Jedi could take at minimum 5 clones. That means the clones win before they even get past the Knights.

The Clones get pwned.

Where are you getting these 202002425345 numbers from?
Legion = 5000 men (501st Legion is what did this)
The Temple only had maybe 500 Jedi, 1000 tops

The Jedi wern't ready, and the clones used Crescent/Circle shaped lines around the Jedi to make them block from all sides

Edit😮h the title

What ruin the versus forum has fallen too?

Very funny

What makes you think a Jedi Master can only take 4 clones? If you look at Geonosis, the 200 Jedi Master and Knights defeated thousands of droids (lets make it an even 15,000 droids although it was probably more). Even if a clone were 5 times better then a droid, each Jedi Master can take at least 15 clones. 15,000 / 5 = 3,000. 3,000 / 200 = 15. That means 7,500 clones are gone right there.

Well then how did the Clones win then? Basically, this is the Raid on the Jedi Temple without Lord Vader. They should still win, shouldn't they. I mean Vader probably killed somewhere from 50 to 200 Jedi. I don't get it 😕

That means the clones win before they even get past the Knights.

Please, no paradoxes 😛

And the clones have heavy artillery. They had:

Assault Ships
Star Destroyers
AT-RT Walkers
Assault Transport
and all sorts of troopers, elites, assasins, sharpshooters, etc.

You guys decide the winner.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Well then how did the Clones win then? Basically, this is the Raid on the Jedi Temple without Lord Vader. They should still win, shouldn't they. I mean Vader probably killed somewhere from 50 to 200 Jedi. I don't get it 😕

Please have a look at the starting post of this thread.
There are now more Jedi in the temple than did even exist in the time of TPM (12,000) much less in times of RotS.

So this is not the raid on the temple without Vader but 12,000 Clones vs 12,000 Jedi Masters, Knights, Padawans and Younglings. And the Clones would be destroyed.

Assault Ships
Star Destroyers
AT-RT Walkers
Assault Transport
and all sorts of troopers, elites, assasins, sharpshooters, etc.

And used none of this in the assault on the temple as well as the thread starter grants them none of these things. Hence they are pwned.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
men, get in your vehicles, arm the tanks. we only have 500 of them, dont waste any! a lightsaber will cut a hole right through the top of them.
Commander Appo right before Operation Knightfall.

solders, i have called for backup. 10000 shock troopers will come with 300 tanks momentarily. Keep fighting!
Commander Appo

Well, with the addition of ten thousand shock troopers the Jedi might go down, it all depends on how many soldiers were still alive when Appo gave the command.