So 19 thousand Clones (plus ground verhicles) to two thousand Younglings and approx. 500 Padawans, 400 Masters and 1800 Knights, I'm thinking. That's 4700 Jedi so about 4 Clones per Jedi plus ground vehicles. I could definately see a Master or Knight being able to take out 4 but only a few of the Padawans probably could and none of the Younglings. I'm thinking the Younglings combined could take out maybe 400 troopers, 500 Padawans could maybe take out 1500, 400 Masters probably could take out 3000 plus some ground vehicles and the Knights perhaps could take out 14 thousand troops. So that's a total of 18900 troops. So IMO this is very, very close. If there are any strong Masters there - Yoda, Mace, Kenobi - The Jedi could probably do this, but if all the Masters (and Knights there) are just avg. and there's nobody strong there the Clones probably win but there are but only few survivors and perhaps one ground vehicle left.
I don't get how you want to solve this thread using math.
1)
The Jedi Commanders in charge of the temple (including the Gate Keeper) were all killed by Anakin. I doubt the Clones would even manage to get inside the temple before somebody closes the gates.
2)
The Jedi temple had some shielding system that was - again - deactivated by Anakin. I can see some huge number of clones getting killed if they have to breach through that personally.
3)
During the Raid on the Temple they were only "hundrets" of Jedi in the temple and we had almost a Legion (9.216 Clones) + Vader attacking them, yet still many of the Clones died. So...even while outnumbering the Jedi at least 10 to 1 and while having the support of a Sith Lord the Clones suffered heavy casualties.
So how can they even hope to win this battle if it starts with equal numbers (with reinforcements roughly 2 on 1 advantage of the Clones, 4 on 1 if we exclude the Younglings) and they have everything in their way that was taken down by Anakin/Vader in the original fight ?
OK than. I am sorry to bring this up, but I cannot POSSIBLY get over the moronic arguments used by those who are so confident in the skills of 3-8 year olds in war. And let me lay the line out to you in simple terms so that you people can understand: WAR IS HELL! I notice that you mention that there is a "lethality modifier" on the practice lightsabers. I would like to see proof of that, and I am inclined to believe that you are Bee Essing us, as HAVE YOU EVER BEEN AROUND THREE TO SIX YEAR OLDS!?!!?!?!?! They are inclined to try anything when they are bored. And if the power switch is so easy to access, I can easily see one Youngling going "Hey, John, you know we only use the lowest power level, so why don't I switch it on high and we will see if it hurts you at all?" "Okay Joe." The results are very easy to predict. So, I can see that the Jedi would make it so that only those who know how dangerous this is be able to adjust it.
And than there is the bullcrap about the Younglings being able to overwhelm the clones once the Five-Oh-One get done with the rest of the order. To this I would advise that you watch the opening scene of "Enemy at the Gates." As inaccurate historically as it was (the machineguns to the rear were only used during the backs-to-the-wall order issued by the Politburo, or for Penal Battalions) It shows you the results of trying to take on a better equipped, better trained (though the German conscripts were only marginally better trained), and coordinated defenders. Yes, it is against fortified defenses, but it shows one thing: do not overestimate numbers and underestimate experience. The younglings are CHILDREN FOR CHRISTSAKES! They are not useful in combat and in all probability would be a hinderance rather than a help. Let me illustrate for you what happens when barely trained, unexperienced YOUTH are put into battle.
In mid-late August, of 1944, one of the great Soviet victories of the War in the East, Operation Bagraton, was winding down, as they had stormed across the Ukraine, defeated the Germans and their Hungarian and Romanian allies, and were now inside the prewar Polish border. The Soviets had (for once) killed more Axis than they lost, roughly 4-1 ratio loss, and they had cut off Army Groups North and South from each other. The situation was chaotic, and the Germans needed room to breath. So they deployed a untapped reserve.
On August 24th, roughly a full quarter of the Hitler-Jugend (or Hitler Youth, as they are called in English) that were in Danzig, around 5,000, were woken up, bundled into cars, and driven to Krakow, in the Fascist General Government that was administering part of prewar Poland. Bagraton had been stopped on the gates of Krakow, and fears were that it would restart. The Germans thus sent the Danzig HJ to Krakow. They arrived at an observation outpost that was relativly well defended (having 18 bunkers on the surface and several more beneath the surface) to reenforce the garrison of 200.
They were put under the command of the regular Wehrmacht forces at the outpost, (called by the Germans 'Scheisse Kasten' (translated meaning S*it Box). They were given a Kar98 each, though some were given a MP40 Machine Pistol (of Sub Machine Gun, same difference really), though not with too much ammo. On September 5th, three days after their arrival, a Soviet force of roughly 8,000 strong that was commiting a recon-in-force for a road to Krakow ran into said outpost, and under standing orders to destroy any Axis force they encountered, they attempted to clear it. The artillery they brought with them was the only thing they had, no air support or anything, and so they began shelling the outpost after they had encircled it, cutting off any retreat. The only thing that saved the Germans than was when a large part of the artillery park caught a spark, destroying roughly half the guns, a good deal of the shells, and killing 60 Soviets.
So, once they exausted their shells two days later, they were forced to attack using infantry, as the rain had made it unsuitable for tank combat. So they stormed the are. What happened was very one-sided. By the end of two days hard fighting, the surviving 184 Germans surrendered. The Soviets had lost around 600.
This is keeping in mind a few things: that (A) The Soviets ranged from Regulars to new draftees, (B) the Germans knew the Russians were coming and were in a fortified position, (C) That the most experienced Russian on the scene (a man named Gregor Yusanovich, an arty spotter) had 2 1/6 years of experience, (D) That the HJ were led by regular troops, (E) that weapons training was already initiated by the time they were deployed because (F) these boys were between 13-18. Anywhere from 6 years to over a decade older than the younglings, and that (G) They could cannibalize dropped enemy weapons.
This, of all things, should show that the younglings are not in any shape to resist barring a bloody miracle. The battle hinges on if the older Jedi can either vanquish the Clones completely or at least damage them so severly that the clones are so unbelievably overwhelmed that it does not matter how bad the younglings are.
Also, DarthSith, stop avoiding the questions by saying "oooohhh you HATE me." It makes it look like you are completely unable to debate anything that is even moderatly complex, and it erodes your credibility. Please ANSWER THE POINTS. DIRECTY. AND RATIONALLY.
I see Tortoise is quite an expert in World War warfare. Oh yes, this thread is revived again.
In the original attack at the Jedi Temple, there wasn't more than probably a 1000 to 2000 Knights. The whole Jedi Order of the CW is 10,000. This is a lesser number than the given thread number of 12,000. Keep in mind that these are battle hardened Jedi who are also familiar with their Clones.
The Clones will be very hard-pressed against the Jedi.
Ok than, Mizukage Yoda, WHY do you feel that the Jedi will win? I cannot 100% say that either side would win, but I wish to hear the REASONS you think that the defenders will beat off the 501st. Borbarad, as well as the rest of you lot, you are forgetting a VEEERRRRYYYY important piece of the equation. The Clones are a regular army, and so it would be more than a little bit likely that they have offboard long range Artillery support, alongside air support, and medicinal teams outside the combat zone. The scenario does not explicitly state this, but it is a reasonable assumption.
I know that a few targets could be destroyed with arty, air, or armor support. I am not sure about the sheilds, but I do believe that a tank (provided it had good coverage by infantry so that once it breaks through it isn't cut through and the crew killed) could break through the gates, and certainly a few Jedi commanders could be killed by men on the ground and by the support units I mentioned.
The Jedi numbers are not as tough as they may appear. The Younglings are going to be very, very useful for target practice by the Clones unless there are all of three clones left. Some of the Padawans are probably not on TPM Obi-Wan level, and while most would be experienced, not all would. The others are going to be more difficult, as they KNOW the clones, but it cuts both throats, does it not? Part of the reason for the success of Order 66 was that the clones for the most part knew the Jedi as well, and they could have a decent idea about what to do. It will be a hard fight, and no matter who comes out on top, there will not be that many of them left.
It is called anonymity. Using a fake nickname so that a PO'ed forum member does not track me down and kill me. You do the same thing, unless your real name is Blaxican, and you had it legally changed from Captain SEX, Blax X, Coleman Trebor, Blaxican Hydra, BlaxicanTroller, KMC Dark Lord, Blaxican Style, Numan2.0, Blaxican_Hydra, RvB]Tucker, and Blaxican_Jedi. And what? Is there something wrong with liking Turtles and Tortoises?
Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
It is called anonymity. Using a fake nickname so that a PO'ed forum member does not track me down and kill me. You do the same thing, unless your real name is Blaxican, and you had it legally changed from Captain SEX, Blax X, Coleman Trebor, Blaxican Hydra, BlaxicanTroller, KMC Dark Lord, Blaxican Style, Numan2.0, Blaxican_Hydra, RvB]Tucker, and Blaxican_Jedi. And what? Is there something wrong with liking Turtles and Tortoises?
Actually yes, those all used to be my name.
God have mercy on your friends and family in that case, they learn your new name just in time to watch you change it again. The guys in charge of your Identity at the Census Bureau have probably taken a contract out on you, and that is without going into the trouble you must have the the great and true evil in the universe, the IRS. LOL