Robert Spencer: Islam as a peaceful religion is "hogwash".

Started by lil bitchiness21 pages

Originally posted by Alliance
Yet she she thinks that Islam is such a tyrannical religion. Christianity has similar passages, yet those do not infuriate her.

I feel she blantantly overgeneralizes.

I had, to a certain point, a respect and admiration for your points regarding Islam, but this has seriously unbelieavable!

Your ignroance is astonishing, and now I seriously Im SICK your ignorance regarding Islam!
You will shit your pants defending somethign you dont have a clue about.

Please pay attention.

Qur'an CANNOT be compared with the BIBLE, BECAUSE Qur'an HAS a complitely DIFFERENT stance with Muslims than Bible does with Christians or even Torah with Jews.

THE FUNDAMENTAL belief of Christianity is to acept Jesus, and the FUNDAMENTAL idea of ISLAM is to ACCEPT Qur'an as the PERFECT, UNCHANGED, UNALTERED, UNTRASLATABLE AND LITERAL word of God.

Tt believe that Quran is NOT LITERAL is to DENY the BASICS of Islam. ITs like not believing in Jesus but calling yourself Christian.

You cannot COMPREHAND Qur'an because in the West you have NOTHING which EQUATES TO IT!

****ing hell man! Read the damn history, and the religious texts before you chat shit!

Now please excise me, i think Im having a nose bleed.

lil has a point on the differences of scriptures. I can come out with some comparisons between The Rig Veda and The Dhammapada. Then claim there are some similiarities. However, that doesn't mean they're the same. It's religion...yes, they're the same...no. Two Eastern religions with very different stances.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I had, to a certain point, a respect and admiration for your points regarding Islam, but this has seriously unbelieavable!

Your ignroance is astonishing, and now I seriously Im SICK your ignorance regarding Islam!
You will shit your pants defending somethign you dont have a clue about.

Please pay attention.

Qur'an CANNOT be compared with the BIBLE, BECAUSE Qur'an HAS a complitely DIFFERENT stance with Muslims than Bible does with Christians or even Torah with Jews.

THE FUNDAMENTAL belief of Christianity is to acept Jesus, and the FUNDAMENTAL idea of ISLAM is to ACCEPT Qur'an as the PERFECT, UNCHANGED, UNALTERED, [b]UNTRASLATABLE AND LITERAL word of God.

Tt believe that Quran is NOT LITERAL is to DENY the BASICS of Islam. ITs like not believing in Jesus but calling yourself Christian.

You cannot COMPREHAND Qur'an because in the West you have NOTHING which EQUATES TO IT!

****ing hell man! Read the damn history, and the religious texts before you chat shit!

Now please excise me, i think Im having a nose bleed. [/B]

......yeah. *runs out of the room*

Yeah, I am sorry for overreacting, but I seriously can't control myself on this issue, espeically because I am getting accused of ignorance by someone who doesnt have sufficient knowledge to challenge my views.

Follow some news, read on Islam...please. And come back challenging my views on Islam, not how Christianity sucks.

''Christians are violent'' is NOT a credible argument for ''Islam is not a religion of peace''

http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=9

Oh and Robert Spencer is one of the most knowledgeble men on Islam.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I had, to a certain point, a respect and admiration for your points regarding Islam, but this has seriously unbelieavable!

Your ignroance is astonishing, and now I seriously Im SICK your ignorance regarding Islam!
You will shit your pants defending somethign you dont have a clue about.

Please pay attention.

Qur'an CANNOT be compared with the BIBLE, BECAUSE Qur'an HAS a complitely DIFFERENT stance with Muslims than Bible does with Christians or even Torah with Jews.

THE FUNDAMENTAL belief of Christianity is to acept Jesus, and the FUNDAMENTAL idea of ISLAM is to ACCEPT Qur'an as the PERFECT, UNCHANGED, UNALTERED, [b]UNTRASLATABLE AND LITERAL word of God.

Tt believe that Quran is NOT LITERAL is to DENY the BASICS of Islam. ITs like not believing in Jesus but calling yourself Christian.

You cannot COMPREHAND Qur'an because in the West you have NOTHING which EQUATES TO IT!

****ing hell man! Read the damn history, and the religious texts before you chat shit!

Now please excise me, i think Im having a nose bleed. [/B]

Not every Christian takes the Bible literally, althought long ago, the Bible was supposed to be the absolute, unchallenged, and literal word of God (the human authors were claimed to have been directly spoken to by God, and told exactly what to write by God himself, not thier own translations)- just ask JIA, and he will SWEAR to you that the Bible is the infallible speech of God, and in no way can be considered flawed despite the human writings.

As with Islam, there are many Muslims who are moderate, and do not regard the Quran as the infallible book of Allah, but refer to it the way Hindus were refer to the Vedas Books of Wisdom, and Kali as just an allegory which represents uncovered truth.

As time goes by, there will be more Muslims who will not see the Quran as the literal speech of Allah, the same way many many Christians do not see the Bible as the infallible and literal word of God.

There ARE Christians today who beleive in Jesus' teachings, but do not SWEAR that Jesus is the only way to Salvation...

There ARE Christians who choose this religion, because they agree with the TEACHINGS of Christ, and REALIZE that they do not know whether or not Jesus is really the true Messiah...nor do they feel the need to know for sure. They just like his teachings, while you have other extremist Christians who SWEAR they KNOW Jesus is the true Messiah, even know they don't know jack sh*t about thier own Faith.

Islam is a religion which has TWO SIDES TO IT...the peaceful side AND the conflicted side...you cannot just label Islam an "unpeaceful" religion, based on its text or based on the terrorists who aim to carry it, because there are also GOOD people in Islam who are shaping the religion to THIER own morality, and contribute to making it what it is.

You once told me that I shouldn't judge Christianity by its historical crimes and current encouragement of social bigotry, but also by the good that has come out of it.

Well, likewise, you must recognize the bad AND GOOD aspects of Islam, and not say that when a Muslim is practicing Peace, that they are not being "true Muslims"

There is NO SUCH THING as a "true muslim" just like there is NO SUCH THING as a "true Christian".....both religions ARE JUST lifestyles based on folklore, and can ONLY BE SHAPED by thier texts AND followers actions.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

As with Islam, there are many Muslims who are moderate, and do not regard the Quran as the infallible book of Allah,

Er thats not true. People may interpret it differently but the Quran was narrated to Mohammed from Gabriel that is just part of Islam. So basically the Quran is infallible if you dont belive that you're not a muslim. I know what im talking about I was a sunni muslim "orthodox" muslim.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Islam is a religion which has TWO SIDES TO IT...the peaceful side AND the conflicted side...you cannot just label Islam an "unpeaceful" religion, based on its text

This is the thing that is making her flip before you can tell her that you need to know about Islam. Muslims maybe be peaceful but the religon itself is not peaceful.

Not every muslim is bad but their is alot of stuff going on around the world which can be blamed on the teachings of the Quran.

As pointed out before you tend not get problems with terrorism with Hindus, Buddhist and Taoists. The reason being because these religons tend to have more peaceful teachings.

See what you've gone and made me say.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

Now please excise me, i think Im having a nose bleed.
😂

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Not every Christian takes the Bible literally, althought long ago, the Bible was supposed to be the absolute, unchallenged, and literal word of God (the human authors were claimed to have been directly spoken to by God, and told exactly what to write by God himself, not thier own translations)- just ask JIA, and he will SWEAR to you that the Bible is the infallible speech of God, and in no way can be considered flawed despite the human writings.

Again, read y post. For a Christian to be a Christian, he doesnt have to accept Bible as absolute. He needs to accept Jesus.

IN SILAM MUSLIMS NEED TO ACCEPT QURAN AS THE INFALABLE ONLY WORD OF GOD.

IT is a requirement.

As with Islam, there are many Muslims who are moderate, and do not regard the Quran as the infallible book of Allah, but refer to it the way Hindus were refer to the Vedas Books of Wisdom, and Kali as just an allegory which represents uncovered truth.[/B][/QUOTE]

No! This is not true at all. I don't know where you're getting facts from, but its not from any Islamic source.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and actually read about Islam, because these kind of statements are the kind of thigs which ake e angry.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Islam is a religion which has TWO SIDES TO IT...the peaceful side AND the conflicted side...you cannot just label Islam an "unpeaceful" religion, based on its text or based on the terrorists who aim to carry it, because there are also GOOD people in Islam who are shaping the religion to THIER own morality, and contribute to making it what it is.

Yet, you are telling me this based on what exactly? You know NOTHING of islam

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You once told me that I shouldn't judge Christianity by its historical crimes and current encouragement of social bigotry, but also by the good that has come out of it.

I never said such a thing.

Note to FORUM: This post is long, but interesting and I took quite a while to write it.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I had, to a certain point, a respect and admiration for your points regarding Islam, but this has seriously unbelieavable!

Your ignroance is astonishing, and now I seriously Im SICK your ignorance regarding Islam!
You will shit your pants defending somethign you dont have a clue about.

Please pay attention.

Qur'an CANNOT be compared with the BIBLE, BECAUSE Qur'an HAS a complitely DIFFERENT stance with Muslims than Bible does with Christians or even Torah with Jews.

THE FUNDAMENTAL belief of Christianity is to acept Jesus, and the FUNDAMENTAL idea of ISLAM is to ACCEPT Qur'an as the PERFECT, UNCHANGED, UNALTERED, [b]UNTRASLATABLE AND LITERAL word of God.

Tt believe that Quran is NOT LITERAL is to DENY the BASICS of Islam. ITs like not believing in Jesus but calling yourself Christian.

You cannot COMPREHAND Qur'an because in the West you have NOTHING which EQUATES TO IT!

****ing hell man! Read the damn history, and the religious texts before you chat shit!

Now please excise me, i think Im having a nose bleed. [/B]

Geez...I knew I was pushing your buttons but sorry about the nosebleed.

Listen to me now.

1. The Quran is comparible to the bible. It is a holy book of an Abrahamic religion, which gives it an instant comparrison. They are in many ways similar. They deny the existance of other gods. Their god is all wise, all pwoerful, all knowing and just. They have their differencees too, but bullsh*t they are not comparable.

2. The fundamental tenet of SOME brnaches of Christianity is to accept Jesus. Many and I would say most branches require you to follow the Bible as well, if not to take it as the LITERAL and Infallible word of God. Maybe you need to brush up on your research.

3. Cut the East-West bullcrap. We are all people, if your argumetn is so correct, it makes sense in both hemispheres. "You can't COMPREHEND" is not a valid argument.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yeah, I am sorry for overreacting, but I seriously can't control myself on this issue, espeically because I am getting accused of ignorance by someone who doesnt have sufficient knowledge to challenge my views.

Follow some news, read on Islam...please. And come back challenging my views on Islam, not how Christianity sucks.

''Christians are violent'' is NOT a credible argument for ''Islam is not a religion of peace''

http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=9

Oh and Robert Spencer is one of the most knowledgeable men on Islam.


4. I'm not accusing you of ignorance, I never said that you know nothing of Islam, I disagree with your interpretation which you yourself have said is based on more than your intellectual opinion, it has had some real consequences in your personal life. That alone is a BIASED opinion. Biased opinions are not necessarily incorrect, but should be regarded with skepticism.

5. "Watch the News" I have told you that I follow world events closely. However, I am intelligent enough to realize that NO, absolutely NO religion (or any ideology) is best or accurately represented by its radical factions. FUNDAMENTALISTS make the news because they blow things up...and fireballs are much more eye-catching than 1,000 moderates each quietly asking fundamentalist to stop. Watching the new is a great start, but you have to THINK about what is going on.

6. "Christian are violent" is NOT my argument for "Islam is a religion of peace." I've said repeatedly that I believe that most religions, ESPECIALLY Abrahamic ones are inherently violent. I just get sick of you accusing Islam of every crime known to man, but you spare other equally guilty religions. Why is that? It leads one to wonder.

7. If you disagree with a non-expert (as in professional) opinion....look to the source. Robert Spencer, properly accredited with an appropriate degree from a credible University. 👆 Spencer is associated with the David Horowitz Freedom Center...a reactionary right-wing think tank that blacklists university professors as “liberals” and Horowitz himself has published several rants in book form that slam feminists, blacks, and homosexuals. 👇 Spencer has been widely published 👆, but then it turns out that his works are not peer reviewed and are published by politically associated corporations. 👇 Spencer has no formal training in Islamic studies, which is amusing to me since you claim that I am “ignorant” and therefore cannot judge. 👇 There is also heavy scholarly criticism of Spencer, including credible acadmics, saying that spencers works “belong to the class of Islamophobic extremism that is promoted and supported by right-wing organizations, who are perpetuating a type of bigotry similar to anti-Semitism and racial prejudice.”👇 Perhaps, Mr. Spencer is more a conservative propagandist than a political scholar. This is not to say that scholarly work can’t have political implications, this is saying that there is a difference between scholarly and non-scholarly work.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
No! This is not true at all. I don't know where you're getting facts from, but its not from any Islamic source.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and actually read about Islam, because these kind of statements are the kind of thigs which ake e angry.

Yet, you are telling me this based on what exactly? You know NOTHING of Islam

I never said such a thing.


Reiteration of #2. Many if not a majority of Christian cults REQUIRE that the Bible is accepted as the infallible word of God. YOur point is not valid.

If you don't accept that argument, try this one. Any person who accepts their holy book as infallible should not go against it...yet, clearly not every Muslim kills "infidels." In fact, the majority don't. Therefore, either most Muslims are bad "Muslims" or, the MODERATE MAJORITY of every religion does not take EVERY tenet of their religion literally.

Maybe they just read this passage from the Quran. [60.8] "Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice."
Clearly you've missed something in your infallible one-sided readings. This passage explains a lot.

8. You did say that event like the Crusades could not be used to judge Christianity. However, this is not relevant to our argument.

Now, I think I’ve babbled enough and to spare you and the rest of the forum, I’m going to stop here. If you’d like to continue to slander me, please do so though private messages and spare the rest of the forum. If you took personal offence to my original post, it was not intended. Clearly, if ignorance extends to me, it extends to you as well. I tried to make it very clear that I’m insulting your opinion, not your person. However, I think I have made it quite clear that you do not have a monopoly on your interpretation (imo, a poor one) of one of the worlds most significant religions.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

Oh and Robert Spencer is one of the most knowledgeble men on Islam.

Yea when you said that you lost all credibility, well in my opinion anyways.

Originally posted by Alliance
[center]

Maybe they just read this passage from the Quran. [60.8] "Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice."
Clearly you've missed something in your infallible one-sided readings. This passage explains a lot.

That doesnt explain anything. Do you know about the life of Mohammed? Do you know about hadiths? So your doing it again you dont know what you're talking about and you're quoting the Quran.

You get pissed of with me when I talk about science and get terms wrong and you're doing the same here with Islam.

To tell you the truth I probably know more about Islam than lil does, the only difference is I dont have the contacts and the literature anymore.

Even if Robert Spencer is incorrect, I have met scholars and well stuided muslims who have confirmed what lil has been saying.

I dont think either lil and me are saying that Islam is the only problem with the world. If you look on one post lil accused the Christains for being like muslims.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

What disturbed me the most (apart from the...entire idea) was the woman saying that she wants Children to be devoted and willing to die and fight for Jesus the way Muslim children are.

WTF? Christians and Muslims are having a copetition who can create more fanatical children.

Isn't this child abuse?!

I think whats pissing us off is the fact that people keep trying to make out that Islam is some peaceful religon and muslims are misunderstood. Yes muslims are not all terrorists but their religon encourages it. I know from learning about Islam and personal experience, I know what im talking about

Stop quoting from the Quran Alliance you dont know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Stop quoting from the Quran Alliance you dont know what you're talking about.

Piss off. I'm allowed to read and quote any source I wish, just as you are.

Now...

Islam has a major fundamentalist problem and EVERYONE acknoledges that.

I know some stuff about Islam. I learn more every day. I don't come here to show off my incredible knowledge on the subject, I post here to debate and learn.

I don't expect evryone to have a perfect knowledge of everything.

I'm too tired and I can't even think anymore so I'll post agian tomorrow. I'm sure lil will have a response that I need to address as well.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think whats pissing us off is the fact that people keep trying to make out that Islam is some peaceful religon and muslims are misunderstood. Yes muslims are not all terrorists but their religon encourages it.

👆

I think its obvious that Islamic fundamentalism is more a product of poverty and bad government than the nature of the relgion.

Originally posted by Alliance
I think its obvious that Islamic fundamentalism is more a product of poverty and bad government than the nature of the relgion.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Someone needs to read and study the Koran,.

Originally posted by Alliance
Piss off. I'm allowed to read and quote any source I wish, just as you are.

Now...

Islam has a major fundamentalist problem and EVERYONE acknoledges that.

I know some stuff about Islam. I learn more every day. I don't come here to show off my incredible knowledge on the subject, I post here to debate and learn.

I don't expect evryone to have a perfect knowledge of everything.

I'm too tired and I can't even think anymore so I'll post agian tomorrow. I'm sure lil will have a response that I need to address as well.

Well yeah you have a point. Buts whats really annoying is that we keep telling you that you need to read about the life of Mohammed and you need to know about about hadiths. We have told you that a hundred times but you still insist on quoting from the Quran without knowing the background knowledage.

The Quran makes no sense at all if you dont know about hadiths and the life of Mohammed! Do you understand what im saying? So can you understand why I get a bit irritable?

Originally posted by Alliance
I think its obvious that Islamic fundamentalism is more a product of poverty and bad government than the nature of the relgion.

OK i've had enough!!! NO ITS NOT. READ THE BLOODY HISTORY FOR **** SAKE!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by debbiejo
Someone needs to read and study the Koran,.

I have, thank you.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So can you understand why I get a bit irritable?

I can understand why you and lil get irritable, but I don't agree with your rationalization of Islam. I think I have points, and I have been honset about my knowledge and what I know.

imo that quote was pretty straight forward.

Originally posted by Alfheim
OK i've had enough!!! NO ITS NOT. READ THE BLOODY HISTORY FOR **** SAKE!!!!!!!!

Are you saying that pooly developed governemnts and poverty have NO play on the Islmaic fundamentalist movement.

Originally posted by Alliance
I think its obvious that Islamic fundamentalism is more a product of poverty and bad government than the nature of the relgion.

It is to an extent. But as much could be said about christianity. However, as Jesus Camp proves, there will always be people who want to win teh fanatacism race, be they christian or muslim. And their justification is the word of "god"