Robert Spencer: Islam as a peaceful religion is "hogwash".

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
It is to an extent. But as much could be said about christianity. However, as Jesus Camp proves, there will always be people who want to win teh fanatacism race, be they christian or muslim. And their justification is the word of "god"

Yes and when you have a religon which was started by enforcement it encourages it even more. I know what im talking about, poverty doesnt have to be factor. Intolerant scripture attracts intolerance. What about the Satanic Verses? Dont see no poverty there.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes and when you have a religon which was started by enforcement it encourages it even more. I know what im talking about, poverty doesnt have to be factor. Intolerant scripture attracts intolerance. What about the Satanic Verses? Dont see no poverty there.

My post was not meant as a total endorsement of your position on the subject.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
My post was not meant as a total endorsement of your position on the subject.

Ok. I really dont want to talk about this anymore.

hey, all i'm saying is that they don't hate us for our freedom. They hate us because they want indoor plumbing, cable tv and a well stocked grocery store on every corner too.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
hey, all i'm saying is that they don't hate us for our freedom. They hate us because they want indoor plumbing, cable tv and a well stocked grocery store on every corner too.

Yeah.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
hey, all i'm saying is that they don't hate us for our freedom. They hate us because they want indoor plumbing, cable tv and a well stocked grocery store on every corner too.

If you're impoverished, unemployed, uneducated, and feel powerless these extremist groups like Hamas and Hizbollah are the perfect organizations. They provide role models, brothers, and a purpose. Plue, people are enticed with religious and military incentives (look, you can hold a GUN!) You can't beat that.

Not to mention that the US has meddled in their govenrmnet for years...espcially Iran. Its not hard to see if I, an American citizen become disillusioned with this tactic, that they, the ones who feel the effects of these governments, could feel the same way. This of course not even to mention the Isreali affairs.

Once in these organizations, kids get indoctrinated and shipped around by a few extremists in high/wealthy positions.

Originally posted by Alliance
If you're impoverished, unemployed, uneducated, and feel powerless these extremist groups like Hamas and Hizbollah are the perfect organizations. They provide role models, brothers, and a purpose. Plue, people are enticed with religious and military incentives (look, you can hold a GUN!) You can't beat that.

Not to mention that the US has meddled in their govenrmnet for years...espcially Iran. Its not hard to see if I, an American citizen become disillusioned with this tactic, that they, the ones who feel the effects of these governments, could feel the same way. This of course not even to mention the Isreali affairs.

Once in these organizations, kids get indoctrinated and shipped around by a few extremists in high/wealthy positions.

Yes that is a factor, but poverty is not always the reason. Im too tired to elaborate and I dont even want to elaborate. 😘

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes that is a factor, but poverty is not always the reason. Im too tired to elaborate and I dont even want to elaborate. 😘

Thats fine, but then stop swooping down and accusing me of ignroance.

Originally posted by Alliance
I think its obvious that Islamic fundamentalism is more a product of poverty and bad government than the nature of the relgion.

Originally posted by Alliance
Note to FORUM: This post is long, but interesting and I took quite a while to write it.

Geez...I knew I was pushing your buttons but sorry about the nosebleed.

Listen to me now.

1. The Quran is comparible to the bible. It is a holy book of an Abrahamic religion, which gives it an instant comparrison. They are in many ways similar. They deny the existance of other gods. Their god is all wise, all pwoerful, all knowing and just. They have their differencees too, but bullsh*t they are not comparable.

2. The fundamental tenet of SOME brnaches of Christianity is to accept Jesus. Many and I would say most branches require you to follow the Bible as well, if not to take it as the LITERAL and Infallible word of God. Maybe you need to brush up on your research.

3. Cut the East-West bullcrap. We are all people, if your argumetn is so correct, it makes sense in both hemispheres. "You can't COMPREHEND" is not a valid argument.

4. I'm not accusing you of ignorance, I never said that you know nothing of Islam, I disagree with your interpretation which you yourself have said is based on more than your intellectual opinion, it has had some real consequences in your personal life. That alone is a BIASED opinion. Biased opinions are not necessarily incorrect, but should be regarded with skepticism.

5. "Watch the News" I have told you that I follow world events closely. However, I am intelligent enough to realize that NO, absolutely NO religion (or any ideology) is best or accurately represented by its radical factions. FUNDAMENTALISTS make the news because they blow things up...and fireballs are much more eye-catching than 1,000 moderates each quietly asking fundamentalist to stop. Watching the new is a great start, but you have to THINK about what is going on.

6. "Christian are violent" is NOT my argument for "Islam is a religion of peace." I've said repeatedly that I believe that most religions, ESPECIALLY Abrahamic ones are inherently violent. I just get sick of you accusing Islam of every crime known to man, but you spare other equally guilty religions. Why is that? It leads one to wonder.

7. If you disagree with a non-expert (as in professional) opinion....look to the source. Robert Spencer, properly accredited with an appropriate degree from a credible University. 👆 Spencer is associated with the David Horowitz Freedom Center...a reactionary right-wing think tank that blacklists university professors as “liberals” and Horowitz himself has published several rants in book form that slam feminists, blacks, and homosexuals. 👇 Spencer has been widely published 👆, but then it turns out that his works are not peer reviewed and are published by politically associated corporations. 👇 Spencer has no formal training in Islamic studies, which is amusing to me since you claim that I am “ignorant” and therefore cannot judge. 👇 There is also heavy scholarly criticism of Spencer, including credible acadmics, saying that spencers works “belong to the class of Islamophobic extremism that is promoted and supported by right-wing organizations, who are perpetuating a type of bigotry similar to anti-Semitism and racial prejudice.”👇 Perhaps, Mr. Spencer is more a conservative propagandist than a political scholar. This is not to say that scholarly work can’t have political implications, this is saying that there is a difference between scholarly and non-scholarly work.

Reiteration of #2. Many if not a majority of Christian cults REQUIRE that the Bible is accepted as the infallible word of God. YOur point is not valid.

If you don't accept that argument, try this one. Any person who accepts their holy book as infallible should not go against it...yet, clearly not every Muslim kills "infidels." In fact, the majority don't. Therefore, either most Muslims are bad "Muslims" or, the MODERATE MAJORITY of every religion does not take EVERY tenet of their religion literally.

Maybe they just read this passage from the Quran. [60.8] "Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice."
Clearly you've missed something in your infallible one-sided readings. This passage explains a lot.

8. You did say that event like the Crusades could not be used to judge Christianity. However, this is not relevant to our argument.

Now, I think I’ve babbled enough and to spare you and the rest of the forum, I’m going to stop here. If you’d like to continue to slander me, please do so though private messages and spare the rest of the forum. If you took personal offence to my original post, it was not intended. Clearly, if ignorance extends to me, it extends to you as well. I tried to make it very clear that I’m insulting your opinion, not your person. However, I think I have made it quite clear that you do not have a monopoly on your interpretation (imo, a poor one) of one of the worlds most significant religions.

You have quoted a Qur'an on me. I will assume you have bothered to read at least one chapter.

I will also assume you have read the part where Qur'an says that if later in the book, anything contradicts the earlier chapters, contradicting chapter automatically canceles the earlier chapter out.

I will also assume you know that the last Chapter of the Qur'an is the only one which does not start with ''bismi-llaahi ar-ra maani ar-ra eemi''

Assuming you didn't pull that quote out of..., I will also assume you will understand why your quote proves absolutely nothing.

***

I can pride myself in sayng that I can argue against Islam, without hiding my lack of knowledge behind Christianity.

All I ever read is the same old bullshit - ''yeah well Islam is bad, but so is Christianity!''

Shaming Christianity to reclaim Islam - yeah, thats convincing.

I don't care for Christianity. I do not care for Christians, and as an institution Christianity does not worry or frighten me.

Let me ask all of you few questions -

Who would you rather be?

A Christian in Saudi Arabia, or a Muslim in North America?
Would you rather be a Jew in Iran, or a Muslim France?
Would you rather be a Copt Christian in Egypt, or a Muslim in Rome?
Would you rather be a Hindu in Pakistan, or a Muslim in India?
Would you rather be a Zen in Syria, or a Muslim in Japan?

How non-muslims are treated in Muslim countries is uncoprehandable to you, because it doesn't affect you. If it doesn't reach Americas and the West, then thats FINE.

But seriously, I hope Muslims end up setting up Sharia in America. I hope one day, instead of 'Praise Jesus' you will hear is ''Allahu Akbar''

I do wish this for you, with all sencerity. Inshallah.

Assalaam Alaikum, Allience.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

Who would you rather be?

A Christian in Saudi Arabia, or a Muslim in North America?
Would you rather be a Jew in Iran, or a Muslim France?
Would you rather be a Copt Christian in Egypt, or a Muslim in Rome?
Would you rather be a Hindu in Pakistan, or a Muslim in India?
Would you rather be a Zen in Syria, or a Muslim in Japan?

The first choices would all be treated like shit.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
But seriously, I hope Muslims end up setting up Sharia in America. I hope one day, instead of 'Praise Jesus' you will hear is ''Allahu Akbar''

Dream on.

Lil. B.............. I know that U know your stuff with that book.................

*sits back and watches*

I never read much of it............

Everyone here has their views and expertise................

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I will also assume you know that the last Chapter of the Qur'an is the only one which does not start with ''bismi-llaahi ar-ra maani ar-ra eemi''

Anyone like to translate for those of us who don't speak arabic?

Originally posted by docb77
Anyone like to translate for those of us who don't speak arabic?

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with peace.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You have quoted a Qur'an on me. I will assume you have bothered to read at least one chapter.

I will also assume you have read the part where Qur'an says that if later in the book, anything contradicts the earlier chapters, contradicting chapter automatically canceles the earlier chapter out.

I will also assume you know that the last Chapter of the Qur'an is the only one which does not start with ''bismi-llaahi ar-ra maani ar-ra eemi''

Assuming you didn't pull that quote out of..., I will also assume you will understand why your quote proves absolutely nothing.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I can pride myself in sayng that I can argue against Islam, without hiding my lack of knowledge behind Christianity.

I pride myself on learning from credible scholarly sources, instead of wearing a blindfold of ignorance. Hell, you think Robert Spencer is credible. George W Bush would like Robert Spencer, and thats SAYING something.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
All I ever read is the same old bullshit - ''yeah well Islam is bad, but so is Christianity!''.

Lets try this R-E-A-D.

Originally posted by Alliance
6. "Christian are violent" is NOT my argument for "Islam is a religion of peace." I've said repeatedly that I believe that most religions, ESPECIALLY Abrahamic ones are inherently violent.

I have enough of a scope to realize that this is not an Islam problem, the same problems in Islam are the same problems in many religions.

ANY fundamentalist is bad. PERIOD. Some of us are intelligent enough to realize that ANYONE who follows a religious text blindly is at fault.

You are ignorant enough to claim that if you don't follow a religious texts word for word, you can't claim that you follow that religion. That is BLATANTLY not the case in any religion. It is not the case in Islam. Regardless of any hate and intolerance that you over-dramatize in the Qu'ran, the problem lies with people, not the religions text.

I'm not attempting to reclaim Islam, but rather showing that fanaticism is not a product the innate character of Islam.

Originally posted by Alliance
How non-muslims are treated in Muslim countries is uncoprehandable to you, because it doesn't affect you. If it doesn't reach Americas and the West, then thats FINE.

Warning: Graphic Image

YOU SEE THAT. NOW THIS MIGHT SURPRISE YOUR IGNORANT AND HATEFUL MIND, BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT AND DON'T EVER ACCUSE ME OF SUCH AGAIN. Because you know all about me, because you know what I have seen, and because you know what life is like for me. Thats right. Pipe down.

I don't support the vast majority of the actions by extremeists in the name of Islam. However, I am smart enough to realize that ISLAM is NOT the problem.

You're argument is simply this: "You're from the West. You don't understand." Now THAT is bullcrap.

Originally posted by Alliance
But seriously, I hope Muslims end up setting up Sharia in America. I hope one day, instead of 'Praise Jesus' you will hear is ''Allahu Akbar''

I do wish this for you, with all sencerity. Inshallah.

Assalaam Alaikum, Allience.

I wish Salaam for you. I wish for you to find peace in your mind and in your heart.

I wish for you to see that you pin all evil on Islam. That you scapegoat a religion for the failure of rational people to contain fanaticism.

I wish for you to realize the ignorance of your claim that the Qu-ran expresses nothing but hate and then brand all who do not follow the hate as not Islamic, therefore accusing every Muslim of being some rabid assassin.

I wish for you to realize that people who commit terror are uneducated and brainwashed. They are put in that situation because of poverty and political manipulation. They are not brainwashed by religion, they are brainwashed by people in the name of religion. This may be amazing to you, but this happens elsewhere in the world.

I wish for you to realize that extremism and injustice have existed throughout the world and throughout history. Just because there is a current correlation between radicalism and Islam, does not mean its a causation.

I wish for you to realize that extremists are a vocal minority that check the moderate majority through fear and apathy.

And again, I wish Salaam for you. I wish for you to find peace in your mind and in your heart. Instead of the blind hate that apparently fills it now.

Wait, President Bush liking someone makes the person's opinion invalid?

Bush saying a type of intellectualism is credible is an ironic.

I pride myself on learning from credible scholarly sources, instead of wearing a blindfold of ignorance. Hell, you think Robert Spencer is credible. George W Bush would like Robert Spencer, and thats SAYING something.

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen a more classic straw-man tactic.

PS. How does someone as dumb as Bush is portrayed by the left get Honors at Yale and then a graduate degree at Harvard? Just curiuos.

Daddy?

Straw Man my arse. Spencer is NOT a credible source.

As to Bush which is not really relevant to this argument...what do you mke of the 46 page report from the UCS including over 60 of America's top scientists and 20 Nobel Laureates directly accusing the Bush administration of manipulating science for political purposes. And lets not take this off topic. If you want to debate it, start a new thread or pm me.

lolz bush am dumb amirite