until the phoenix became something other than a world-devourer, that is. once it became a cosmic entity that embued various hosts with its nigh-infinite powers, assembled a corps, and stopped meddling directly in our universe's affairs, it went far beyond anything storm was capable of. members of the phoenix corps talked of killing universes and galaxies the way we talk about swatting flies. storm isn't on phoenix's level.
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Page "40", about 7 lines up on the left side. "We had originally envisioned she had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's and, that the saving of the universe was a one-time only stunt"Even Claremont acknowledges that characters have high feats and a level of normalcy.
How does him talking about that idea for Phoenix translate into "aknowledges that other characters......"
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Later, of course, the Dark Phoenix saga came and Jean went through the roof.
Yea, in 1980, a year AFTER he said they were equal. Obviously he made that statement with DP in mind as well
In July 81 we have RogueStorm who grasp ULTIMATE power.
Then we have that interview in 82 of him NEVER explicitly stating that Jean/PF is past storm in powerlevel.
Then we have in 83 Storm summoning the GC a from which she gains material and spiritual sustenance from each Star.
Then in 166 she summons the power of Stars again.
They both obviously parllel each other when you look at the authors work and the timeline. You can see that it holds true. Even some of the same terminologies are used.
Originally posted by Disappear
until the phoenix became something other than a world-devourer, that is. once it became a cosmic entity that embued various hosts with its nigh-infinite powers, assembled a corps, and stopped meddling directly in our universe's affairs, it went far beyond anything storm was capable of. members of the phoenix corps talked of killing universes and galaxies the way we talk about swatting flies. storm isn't on phoenix's level.
Or so you think. 😎
We get it straight from the MAN.
She is.
Look at his work.
He never said she wasn't.
I even asked him personally. I have yet to get an answer. I am sure NOTHING has changed.
Originally posted by 2damnloud
They are equal in terms of RAW POWER.This does not= them having the EXACT same characterizations, just similarities so the perceptive can see and the obtuse can't.
w00tehshocklaugh
Originally posted by 2damnloud
How does him talking about that idea for Phoenix translate into "aknowledges that other characters......"
He said she was intended to be at Storm's level and the "saving of the universe" was a one time feat. One time feats are just that, they almost always entail some kind of boosted ability for one feat.
Yea, in 1980, a year AFTER he said they were equal. Obviously he made that statement with DP in mind as well
did storm have a corps of people acting across the multiverse on her whims? did the shi'ar anticipate creating a black hole on earth because storm was flying next to their jet, or because phoenix was there? did the shi'ar even bat an eyelash at storm while simultaneously discussing the threat of omega mutants in proximity to the phoenix?
storm is not anywhere near phoenix's level. she hasn't transcended anything about human existence. she isn't the embodiment of anything, least of all passion and fire and creation and whatever. she isn't even a confirmed omega-level mutant. if she was even going to approach phoenix level, she'd sure as shit need to be. these selective interpretation of events and the intentional ignoring of others is really wearing thin.
Originally posted by Disappear
did storm have a corps of people acting across the multiverse on her whims? did the shi'ar anticipate creating a black hole on earth because storm was flying next to their jet, or because phoenix was there? did the shi'ar even bat an eyelash at storm while simultaneously discussing the threat of omega mutants in proximity to the phoenix?
CHECK. Ret-cons happen for a # of reasons (mainly to give a character more juice and ignore continuity, and or revise printed canon) , as is the case with the Phoenix/Wonder Woman/Super Man. hold on, there's a pattern around here somewhere) I don't buy the "fixing the story" line. The retcon Storm recieved just put her closer to the Panther during her child hood.
(as far as ret-cons go i've seen worse. see above mentionings)
Originally posted by Disappear
storm is not anywhere near phoenix's level. [/B]
Originally posted by Disappear
she hasn't transcended anything about human existence. [/B]
CHECK. Was power incarnate for a breif momment once she freed herself from Doom's statue prison.
Originally posted by Disappear
she isn't the embodiment of anything, least of all passion and fire and creation and whatever. [/B]
CHECK. "I am the Storm" sound familiar. or were you absent the day they explianed that the WEATHER was connected to her emotions. The forces she manipulates are the forces of creation.
Originally posted by Disappear
she isn't even a confirmed omega-level mutant. if she was even going to approach phoenix level, she'd sure as shit need to be. [/B]
CHECK. As far as "Omega" is concerned, You know, and I know Storm should have been the first person on the list (citing continuity). so stop.
Originally posted by Disappear
these selective interpretation of events and the intentional ignoring of others is really wearing thin. [/B]
I could not agree more. While we're at it, let's go talk to the writers that came after Chris that have been trying for years to "tone" Storm down. When it was obviously, always her creator's and the following writer's intent that Storm be a FORCE all on her own. (go back. read the many, many, many scans and texts. Check the dates, compare the wording in the issues. in the end you now I'm right.)
Also, people act like Jean was in control and runnin shit. let's get it right. her will was weak, the power overwhealmed her, drove her nutts, then led to her death.
now that is what I call: "altered and enhanced beyond one's ability to control" if ever there was one.
In contrast, Storm (as stated in print) faced the same kind of maddening power after her escape from Doom. Which she (through sheer force of will, mind you) was able to supress.
For the record, Chris did'nt say Storm was as powerful as "Jean Grey".
He said that "The Phoenix" was initialy written to Storm power levels. so everything she did before the retcon was at Storm level. While Eating a Star was a 1 time feat for her, We have seen Storm syphen energy and sustenance from planets, stars, and dimensions on numerous occasions since.
Also, to my knowledge, Storm is currently the only Human being on Earth, deemed "Worthy" by Mighty Moljioner (the others were: Eric Masterson and Captain America) to weild the enchanted hammer.
Holla Bidack
Originally posted by BlueDMightyAt the time Claremont had something along the lines of 5 years under his belt. The comic is now ~32 years old. With numerous spin-offs. At the time Claremont stated that Jean was meant to be at Storm's level, and that she had a one-time universal feat. In the subsequent 25 or so years Jean Grey has been killed and revived and killed and revived and become the embodiment of life in the universe, or according to some interpretation multiverse. He doesn't hold monopoly over either character.
CHECK. The exact opposite has been stated by a writter with 16 yrs. in the X-game. 16 yrs.! Until another WRITER with 16 years of X-history and X-continuity says diffferent,(in ink) the quote stands. (**** a Phoenix ret-con)CHECK. Was power incarnate for a breif momment once she freed herself from Doom's statue prison.
CHECK. "I am the Storm" sound familiar. or were you absent the day they explianed that the WEATHER was connected to her emotions. The forces she manipulates are the forces of creation.
CHECK. As far as "Omega" is concerned, You know, and I know Storm should have been the first person on the list (citing continuity). so stop.
I could not agree more. While we're at it, let's go talk to the writers that came after Chris that have been trying for years to "tone" Storm down. When it was obviously, always her creator's and the following writer's intent that Storm be a FORCE all on her own. (go back. read the many, many, many scans and texts. Check the dates, compare the wording in the issues. in the end you now I'm right.)
Also, people act like Jean was in control and runnin shit. let's get it right. her will was weak, the power overwhealmed her, drove her nutts, then led to her death.
now that is what I call: "altered and enhanced beyond one's ability to control" if ever there was one.In contrast, Storm (as stated in print) faced the same kind of maddening power after her escape from Doom. Which she (through sheer force of will, mind you) was able to supress.
For the record, Chris did'nt say Storm was as powerful as "Jean Grey".
He said that "The Phoenix" was initialy written to Storm power levels. so everything she did before the retcon was at Storm level. While Eating a Star was a 1 time feat for her, We have seen Storm syphen energy and sustenance from planets, stars, and dimensions on numerous occasions since.Also, to my knowledge, Storm is currently the only Human being on Earth, deemed "Worthy" by Mighty Moljioner (the others were: Eric Masterson and Captain America) to weild the enchanted hammer.
Holla Bidack
"Power incarnate" is relative. Terms like "ultimate" "unlimited" and "unstoppable" are relative. Franklin Richards created a pocket universe. The Scarlet Witch remade reality. Mad Jim Jaspers likewise would have collapsed the omniverse. She doesn't compare to their "power incarnate." Their "ultimate." Their "unlimited."
As far as Omega is concerned, see above.
Jean Grey is the avatar for the Phoenix, the spark of creation, the embodiment of all life in the universe and life unborn. Storm went postal over being trapped in chrome.
Crossovers are not canon.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
At the time Claremont had something along the lines of 5 years under his belt. The comic is now ~32 years old. With numerous spin-offs. At the time Claremont stated that Jean was meant to be at Storm's level, and that she had a one-time universal feat. In the subsequent 25 or so years Jean Grey has been killed and revived and killed and revived and become the embodiment of life in the universe, or according to some interpretation multiverse. He doesn't hold monopoly over either character.
Fair, however he never compared her to "Jean Grey". He compared the Phoenix to "Storm" (huge difference. ex: do you act/look like your father? or, does your father act/look like you?)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
"Power incarnate" is relative. Terms like "ultimate" "unlimited" and "unstoppable" are relative. Franklin Richards created a pocket universe. The Scarlet Witch remade reality. Mad Jim Jaspers likewise would have collapsed the omniverse. She doesn't compare to their "power incarnate." Their "ultimate." Their "unlimited."
As far as Omega is concerned, see above.
[/B]
Following that course of logic, what current "Omegas" rank with the people mentioned above? Scarlet Which and Jean are in the same boat, seeing as how they both went nuts and for all intents and purposes disappeared.
I am referring to "power incarnate", as printed, in terms of raw power.
(since her Doom exp. she has since created and absorbed huge storms and weather patterns. Once covering the entire east coast by diverting a large jet stream. while in the savage land her powers were used to create a system of weather that would have changed he face of the earth. While under Sauron's influence she again created massive Storms and generated an insane amount of energy. During "the 12" story arch she served as the embodiment of Air and Earth extremes, while Ice Man embodied water extremes, and Sunfire embodied Fire extremes. Polaris served as one magnetic extreme and Maggs was the Other. it was also revealed in the same arch, that Storm, at her peak, was Air. in yet another book, we see Rachel talking to Storm in her Future where she was again in the form of Air.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Jean Grey is the avatar for the Phoenix, the spark of creation, the embodiment of all life in the universe and life unborn. Storm went postal over being trapped in chrome.[/B]
and in so doing, became the embodiment of the Storm. embodiment of the processes and forces Which sustain life on any planet. and by contrast, the embodiment of heavenly (biblical) destruction on any planet.(God did'nt send a "Phoenix" he sent THE flood)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Crossovers are not canon. [/B]
What crossover?
With regard to Omegas, none. Omega as a designation has been an ambiguous one, which is why the only real criterion to be an Omega is to be called one without any uncertainty. No potentials, no possibles. Iceman, Franklin Richards, Mr M, Jean Grey, Vulcan, Kid Omega and Elixir are Omegas. Chamber and Storm are not.
In terms of "raw power." She doesn't compare to several others. If "raw power" was a criterion for Omega designation Elixir would not be one.
God has what to do with anything now? Embodiment of the Storm. Pshaw. When Rachel was the Phoenix she drew from the wellspring of life unborn - she prevented existences from ever coming into being. Faux terms like "embodiment of the Storm" and the further extrapolation of that into some quasi-religious life-force quashing ability with no basis, mean as much as someone rattling on about Jubilee becoming the Abstract of fireworks or Wither becoming Multiversal death.
I assumed you were referring to Marvel vs DC, with the comment about Mjolnir. But actually I don't recall Storm wielding Mjolnir in that either off the top of my head. In any event it wouldn't be canon.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
With regard to Omegas, none. Omega as a designation has been an ambiguous one, which is why the only real criterion to be an Omega is to be called one without any uncertainty. No potentials, no possibles. Iceman, Franklin Richards, Mr M, Jean Grey, Vulcan, Kid Omega and Elixir are Omegas. Chamber and Storm are not.
I can't argue with print, so fair.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
God has what to do with anything now?[/B]
Phoenix being second to only the Creater (so says the Wathcer)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Embodiment of the Storm. Pshaw. [/B]
Storm commands the Elements in her current form. At that level she was deffinately the source.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
When Rachel was the Phoenix she drew from the wellspring of life unborn - she prevented existences from ever coming into being.[/B]
Writer preferacne for a character. any way, if she IS the spark of life why or how could she draw power from the "wellspring of life unborn", since technically i guess she IS life unborn?
Also, would'nt peventing existances from ever coming to be, negate your existance since you are existance?
Do you see how ridulous that retcon has made them?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
mean as much as someone rattling on about Jubilee becoming the Abstract of fireworks or Wither becoming Multiversal death.[/B]
now that's funny. but, then again stranger things have happened (what ever happened to Wonder Woman's invisible plane?)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I assumed you were referring to Marvel vs DC, with the comment about Mjolnir. But actually I don't recall Storm wielding Mjolnir in that either off the top of my head. In any event it wouldn't be canon. [/B]
New mutants. A depowered Storm is tricked by Loki into becoming the Thunder Godess, wielding an enchanted hammer that Loki made. By the end of the confrontation, Storm had turned down the power of Loki's Hammer and picked up Moljiner to use against him.
Originally posted by BlueDMightyTOAA and God in comics were shown on panel as Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in an issue of FF iirc.
Phoenix being second to only the Creater (so says the Wathcer)
Originally posted by BlueDMightyIt's never implied she was the source of all weather processes, or elements, on the planet at that moment in that arc. In any event that doesn't extrapolate to the source of life-force on the planet, let alone the universe.
Storm commands the Elements in her current form. At that level she was deffinately the source.
Originally posted by BlueDMightyThe power of life unborn doesn't specify which lives, nor does it specify from which timeline. The Phoenix has become convoluted. That doesn't change that she is more near to omnipotence than nearly all characters in Marvel - with dispute of only where she fits within the upper echelons of the cosmic scale. Storm doesn't register.
Writer preferacne for a character. any way, if she IS the spark of life why or how could she draw power from the "wellspring of life unborn", since technically i guess she IS life unborn?Also, would'nt peventing existances from ever coming to be, negate your existance since you are existance?
Do you see how ridulous that retcon has made them?
Originally posted by BlueDMightyShe still had it at the end of IC iirc.
now that's funny. but, then again stranger things have happened (what ever happened to Wonder Woman's invisible plane?)
Originally posted by BlueDMightyI'll have to look into my old New Mutants.
New mutants. A depowered Storm is tricked by Loki into becoming the Thunder Godess, wielding an enchanted hammer that Loki made. By the end of the confrontation, Storm had turned down the power of Loki's Hammer and picked up Moljiner to use against him.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
TOAA and God in comics were shown on panel as Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in an issue of FF iirc. It's never implied she was the source of all weather processes, or elements, on the planet at that moment in that arc. In any event that doesn't extrapolate to the source of life-force on the planet, let alone the universe.The power of life unborn doesn't specify which lives, nor does it specify from which timeline. The Phoenix has become convoluted. That doesn't change that she is more near to omnipotence than nearly all characters in Marvel - with dispute of only where she fits within the upper echelons of the cosmic scale. Storm doesn't register.
I can't argue with that. (until i get hired by marvel for my Literary skiddills, and start writing things as I understand them)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
She still had it at the end of IC iirc.
[/B]
What version of Wonder Woman exists today?
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
A later interview, that you've conveniently forgotten, has Claremont saying at the time, Phoenix was intended to be as powerful as Storm and the sun eating was a one time feat and it was at that time the comparison was made. He clarifies that his comparison was before Phoenix became what she is now.
This is a lie. The thing that was a one-time feat was when Phoenix healed the M'krann Crystal. After that, she was regulated to power levels comparable to Storm's. The two women rivalled in power, however, things kept going and going and we got the Dark Phoenix Saga. Soon afterwards, CC did a parallel story with Storm with Dr. Doom and put Storm on DP power levels as well. In essense, he made the two characters, Storm and Phoenix, equal in every way.
it was 1979 from Rampage Magazine(UK)
The interviewer (someone called Richard Burton, I'll abbreviate it to RB) is asking Chris various questions, working through the characters...
"RB: Storm next...
Chris Claremont: Storm is basically what she is...a goddess, a three-dimensional goddess, if such a thing is possible.
RB: When the new X-Men first appeared Storm was probably the most powerful and dramatic member. Do you feel now that she's been slightly upstaged by Phoenix?
Chris Claremont: No. In equal terms of raw power, they're approximately equal.
Jean can maintain a higher burst...she can peak higher than Storm but she can't hold it for long. The thing with Storm is that all we've done till now is show her throwing lightning bolts and creating hurricanes, but she can do far more. Phoenix is more visual - the 'bird effect' is more spectacular. So the gist of it is that they complement each other. They do different things in different ways."
Okay, there is the interview. Now, here is Uncanny 145-147: (The cover of 147 stated "We did it once, dare we do it again," in allusion to the Dark Phoenix Saga.)
As stated in that interview, Storm's powers are equal to Phoenix. However, at that time, Phoenix's powers were tempered by Jean's humanity. Same holds true for Ororo. Her powers are tempered by her humanity. In the case of Phoenix, when Jean's humanity was removed, nothing was there to restrain the power and DP was born. It had near-infinite power, but kept growing and reaching for ultimate power. However, it was stopped before that. DP stated that she had limits still and did not like this. This was before she consumed the star. However, the Watcher let us know that DP could have attained ultimate power and been second only to the Creator had she kept going and not been stopped.
In the case of Storm, when her humanity was stripped, she also had near-infinite power and was reaching for ultimate power. It was in her grasp. However, she brought herself under control rather than continuining down that mad god road of the DP. Both had the potential to grasp ultimate power in their reach. Storm simply refused it while Phoenix was stopped before she reached it.
If Storm were to let go of her blocks and delve into her powers and kept reaching for the higher power levels, she would reach ultimate and unlimited power.
We know in Uncanny 165-166 that Storm can perceive the universe as patterns of energy and forces and bend it to its will. This includes stars, planets, empty space, etc.
Right now, Storm has the power of a goddess, but she is limited to her flesh and blood body. However, as stated in X-Treme issue 5, she will one day transcend humanity and evolve into a true goddess.
Originally posted by Disappear
until the phoenix became something other than a world-devourer, that is. once it became a cosmic entity that embued various hosts with its nigh-infinite powers, assembled a corps, and stopped meddling directly in our universe's affairs, it went far beyond anything storm was capable of. members of the phoenix corps talked of killing universes and galaxies the way we talk about swatting flies. storm isn't on phoenix's level.
Storm has been given near-infinite power in canon as well in the arc where she evolved to power levels equal to that of the Dark Phoenix. The issue stated in plain english that she had near-infinite power.
