Originally posted by Soljer
Yes, it's aimed at you. And Jinzin. And myself. And Creshok. And C-master, and Grimm, and Capt it up.In short, it's aimed at the forum. EVERYONE needs to get over their preconceived notions of how they WANT characters to be; be that superior or inferior to their consistent showings.
Though, some are guilty of having their biases show more often than others.
Okay, agreed.
Originally posted by DinalfosMarignally.. though I'd like to see you explain this one.
Again, there's a difference between dodging lasers and fighting someone.
How is dodging one attack not like dodging another?
Prediction and moving out of the way isn't it?
Originally posted by DinalfosOr not... since there is a consistentcy.
And Wolverine is not that fast. If he's really that fast, then why is still considered as a slightly enhanced human? If we go by his comic feats hen there's absolutely no way of telling how fast he really is. That would make his speed unusable in debates, because it's wildly fluctuating.
Originally posted by DinalfosHe feferenced a specific event that happened...
Wolverine is NOT that fast. But yes, he's faster than Thing.
Originally posted by DinalfosCombat != combat?
But combat does not always = combat.
How does that work?
Originally posted by DinalfosOh so your opinion is better than the truth?
Wrong.
Originally posted by DinalfosActions speak louder than words, and Marvels actions (comics) contradict marvel's words. Frequently.
Yes. Wolverine, physically speaking, no matter how you look at it, is a human with increased durability and a healing factor. Marvel's own words.
Originally posted by Dinalfosthe consistent ones.
Again, if we are to go by his feats in deciding who would win in a hypothetical fight between certain characters, which feats are supposed to count?
Originally posted by DinalfosRetconned.
They didn't go through his skin. The Hulk from the past didn't have a healing factor like he has now. He was just insanely durable.
Originally posted by DinalfosThat's actually what makes something a fact.. scientific process and consistency of action.
Erroneous reasoning doesn't become correct just because it happens consequentially.
Originally posted by DinalfosAnd what he does all the time as well?
I would like to stress that I accept Wolverine's more outrageous feats in comics because of suspension of disbelief. But that must be ignored in favour of reason in forum fights.
Why choose only his low showings?
Originally posted by DinalfosWhat you mean the adamantium skull?
He also head-butted Hulk, causing a bloodbath. Hulk is several times more durable than Wolvie, yet this happens? Does that seem right to you? No.
Originally posted by DinalfosBut we count circumstance that favors you and disregard noncircumstantial evidence?
Anyway, he was barely touched by that punch(because he rolled with it), so it really didn't matter at all that he wasn't looking.
Originally posted by DinalfosHulk at his base rarely does.
So Wolverine can't be kayoed by class 100 characters, but the Hulk, at his base(still physically superior in every way) can?
Originally posted by Creshosk
Marignally.. though I'd like to see you explain this one.How is dodging one attack not like dodging another?
Prediction and moving out of the way isn't it?
Or not... since there is a consistentcy.
Because not all attacks are equal in size, proportion, movement, frequency, leverage etc. etc.
Wolverine seems to have more trouble dodging the Hulk than he has trouble dodging lasers and bullets.
He feferenced a specific event that happened...
Yes. But how fast is he going to be? Any numbers? Any indication?
Combat != combat?
How does that work?
What?
Oh so your opinion is better than the truth?
Never mind.
Actions speak louder than words, and Marvels actions (comics) contradict marvel's words. Frequently.
Yes, but the actions contradict each other as well. It's quite normal for that to happen though. But it does mean that not everything can be used.
the consistent ones.
which aren't all that consistent. Sometimes, Wolverine is actually portrayed as the character he is supposed to be: a peak human with excellent fighting skills, not some unbeatable demigod.
Retconned.
I must have missed this. Where?
That's actually what makes something a fact.. scientific process and consistency of action.
Marvel's hierarchy of power is grounded in and based on real world hierarchy, albeit proportionally amplified. In other words: nothing changes. And when it does, it throws off the balance.
Why choose only his low showings?
I don't. It's just that, unlike characters like Hulk and Thing, his lower showings DON'T conflict the character model and design. In fact, they embrace them. Apparently. Maybe accidentally, but they do.
Ofcourse, most of Wolverine's personal arcs are perfectly fine. But some patterns are and always will be ridiculous. Not that it matters..
What you mean the adamantium skull?
He withstood worse. Wolverine can never be strong enough to make a head-butt like that count on someone like the Hulk. Adamantium or not. Now, if this was a speeding train made out of the stuff, then you would have a point.
But we count circumstance that favors you and disregard noncircumstantial evidence?
Nah, just presenting my view.
Hulk at his base rarely does.
Does what? K.o people? I was talking about BEING k.o'd.
Originally posted by DinalfosHe pulled a samurai stunt. The person couldn't tell what was happening, and it was after a few seconds the body armor fell apart.
Yes. But how fast is he going to be? Any numbers? Any indication?
Originally posted by DinalfosThat's what I'm asking.
What?
Originally posted by Dinalfoswhich is why we go for consistency over lower or high showings.
Yes, but the actions contradict each other as well. It's quite normal for that to happen though. But it does mean that not everything can be used.
Originally posted by DinalfosSo if the consistent ones aren't consistent . . . what?
which aren't all that consistent. Sometimes, Wolverine is actually portrayed as the character he is supposed to be: a peak human with excellent fighting skills, not some unbeatable demigod.
Originally posted by DinalfosWolverine was talking about how he thought he couldn't cut the hulk, and as it turned out it was just the hulk healling fast. I'm sure Jinzin has mentioned this.
I must have missed this. Where?
Originally posted by DinalfosWhat real world heiarchy?
Marvel's hierarchy of power is grounded in and based on real world hierarchy,
Originally posted by DinalfosCould you rephrase that in a non contradictory way?
albeit proportionally amplified. In other words: nothing changes. And when it does, it throws off the balance.
Originally posted by DinalfosWhat's funny is that you attempt to justify something that you "don't" do:
I don't.
Originally posted by DinalfosYou mean the character design where he was envisioned with a real wolverine in mind and thus being able to go toe-to-toe with characters larger and stronger than himself (takeing a full force hit from collosus for example)? Or the redesign of where he is now?
It's just that, unlike characters like Hulk and Thing, his lower showings DON'T conflict the character model and design. In fact, they embrace them. Apparently. Maybe accidentally, but they do.
Oh, I know.. the model and design you want to use rather than what's consistent....
Originally posted by DinalfosOf course not, why use"most" of which is "prefectly fine" when the "low showings" are more suited to his "model"?
Ofcourse, most of Wolverine's personal arcs are perfectly fine. But some patterns are and always will be ridiculous. Not that it matters..
Originally posted by DinalfosOf course not, he was never designed to be a hulk antagonist.. never...
He withstood worse. Wolverine can never be strong enough to make a head-butt like that count on someone like the Hulk.
Originally posted by DinalfosOr just a well placed blow to the sniffer... I wonder how many animals that's a sensitive spot on?
Adamantium or not. Now, if this was a speeding train made out of the stuff, then you would have a point.
Originally posted by Dinalfosas opposed to facts, evidence and going for the truth?
Nah, just presenting my view.
Originally posted by DinalfosThanks for the clearification.
Does what? K.o people? I was talking about BEING k.o'd.
So then.. what was the name of that guy that took Hulk down in three shots? and what did he do to wolverine?
Originally posted by Creshosk
He pulled a samurai stunt. The person couldn't tell what was happening, and it was after a few seconds the body armor fell apart.
He's not always that fast.
That's what I'm asking.
There's different types of combat, obviously.
which is why we go for consistency over lower or high showings.
That's the problem:
So if the consistent ones aren't consistent . . . what?
"which aren't all that consistent"
That suggests that I don't believe they were consistent to begin with. For every time he dodges a bullet, there's a time where he takes a punch in the gut from someone not as fast as a bullet.
Wolverine was talking about how he thought he couldn't cut the hulk, and as it turned out it was just the hulk healling fast. I'm sure Jinzin has mentioned this.
You mean during the fight with Grey Hulk? Not necessarily a retcon, because he's a different incarnation altogether.
What real world heiarchy?
Every thinkable hierarchy. The impaired > the normal > the above normal > the gifted > etc. etc.
Everything in the Marvel Universe does adhere to the same basic rules and laws. That's why Wolverine can't always do what he does.
Could you rephrase that in a non contradictory way?
Not necessary. Just stop pretending that you don't understand.
What's funny is that you attempt to justify something that you "don't" do:
Wolverine has high showings that DON'T defy logic. He has plenty of good, reasonable showings that are to be considered high for Wolvie. The absolute uber-feats is what makes him so hated.
You mean the character design where he was envisioned with a real wolverine in mind and thus being able to go toe-to-toe with characters larger and stronger than himself (takeing a full force hit from collosus for example)? Or the redesign of where he is now?
Haha, funny. I meant classic Wolverine.
Oh, I know.. the model and design you want to use rather than what's consistent....
Of course 🙄
Of course not, why use"most" of which is "prefectly fine" when the "low showings" are more suited to his "model"?
Because a lot of showings of Wolverine are within his possibilities. Simple as that. Yes, compared to his higher feats they are low, but that's okay. They suit the character. So yes, they're perfectly fine.
Of course not, he was never designed to be a hulk antagonist.. never...
Uhm...Wolverine couldn't do jack shit to Hulk in their first meeting. He didn't stay a Hulk antagonist for very long, you know.....
Or just a well placed blow to the sniffer... I wonder how many animals that's a sensitive spot on?
The Hulk is as durable as an animal? Wrong. He had a Dog'o War(capable of crushing adamantium) biting his neck, yet it didn't do anything to him.
as opposed to facts, evidence and going for the truth?
You're not going for the truth, mate.
So then.. what was the name of that guy that took Hulk down in three shots? and what did he do to wolverine?
It's not necessarily what they do to Wolverine. It can also be what they DIDN'T do. Spidey K.o'd Hulk, Spidey never K.o'd Wolverine(as far as I know). So Spidey should be able to k.o Wolverine, since he's been soundly defeated by Hulk. Daredevil pwned Wolverine who's had trouble with Captain A. who has pawned Daredevil.
Originally posted by DinalfosHe's pretty consistent about it.
He's not always that fast.
Originally posted by DinalfosLike fist to cuffs and martial arts and heavy arms combat?
There's different types of combat, obviously.
Originally posted by Dinalfosbecause dodging bullets is not dodging the bullets themselves. its predicting where the bullet is going to go and then getting out of the way in time, just being faster than the person and making them miss.
That's the problem:"which aren't all that consistent"
That suggests that I don't believe they were consistent to begin with. For every time he dodges a bullet, there's a time where he takes a punch in the gut from someone not as fast as a bullet.
Originally posted by DinalfosNo during any fight in which he was unable to penetrate the skin. it was retconned to Hulk healing fast.
You mean during the fight with Grey Hulk? Not necessarily a retcon, because he's a different incarnation altogether.
E
Originally posted by Dinalfosokay...
Every thinkable hierarchy. The impaired > the normal > the above normal > the gifted > etc. etc.
Originally posted by DinalfosBased on circumstances for the most part.
Everything in the Marvel Universe does adhere to the same basic rules and laws. That's why Wolverine can't always do what he does.
Originally posted by DinalfosI understand that you contradicted yourself.
Not necessary. Just stop pretending that you don't understand.
Based on that you are missing an argument since contradicting yourself is basically countering your own argument.
Originally posted by DinalfosI consider the uber ones to be the high, the range of consistant showings to be normal, and the low showings to be .. well low showings.
Wolverine has high showings that DON'T defy logic. He has plenty of good, reasonable showings that are to be considered high for Wolvie. The absolute uber-feats is what makes him so hated.
Originally posted by DinalfosWhere he was taking full force hits from Collosus? so how is taking hits from bricks outside of his power set if he was doing it in classic?
Haha, funny. I meant classic Wolverine.
Originally posted by DinalfosWhat you define to be within his possabilities which contradicts what you said about using the classic wolverine.
Because a lot of showings of Wolverine are within his possibilities.
Originally posted by Dinalfosin your conflicting veiws of the character....
Simple as that. Yes, compared to his higher feats they are low, but that's okay. They suit the character. So yes, they're perfectly fine.
Originally posted by DinalfosRetconned.
Uhm...Wolverine couldn't do jack shit to Hulk in their first meeting.
Originally posted by DinalfosWhich explains why hulk still hates him and basically attacks him on site in his less inteligent incarnations... including grey hulk.
He didn't stay a Hulk antagonist for very long, you know.....
Originally posted by DinalfosYes, because the nose is the neck...
The Hulk is as durable as an animal? Wrong. He had a Dog'o War(capable of crushing adamantium) biting his neck, yet it didn't do anything to him.
Originally posted by DinalfosNot your subjective version of the truth. I'm using the data that's been presented. not what I want, like you already admitted to.
You're not going for the truth, mate.
Originally posted by DinalfosSee more conflicting veiws.
It's not necessarily what they do to Wolverine. It can also be what they DIDN'T do. Spidey K.o'd Hulk, Spidey never K.o'd Wolverine(as far as I know). So Spidey should be able to k.o Wolverine, since he's been soundly defeated by Hulk.
Hulk takes great hits... yet you can beleive that Spiderman can knock him out and (since you didn't mention it) without plot device.
There fore you beleive that based on Spiderman knocking out the hulk, Spiderman should be able to knock out Wolverine. Despite admitting that Spiderman has never done so . . . despite never ever doing it.
Originally posted by DinalfosAnd? now suddenly fighting skill is being interchanged with strength?
Daredevil pwned Wolverine who's had trouble with Captain A. who has pawned Daredevil.
Again dwelling on low showings of characters...
Originally posted by SoljerUnless you are saying I'm a Wolverine fanboy (which is the most laughable and quotable thing I've heard in ages). You're going to have to show me these "preconceived notions", I call characters right down the line (despite me making fun of them), whether I like them or not. And I could really care less if the "integrity" of my character is being threatened, I have no need to follow and ***** about people insulting a character, in the end those are the biggest fanboys.
Yes, it's aimed at you. And Jinzin. And myself. And Creshok. And C-master, and Grimm, and Capt it up.In short, it's aimed at the forum. EVERYONE needs to get over their preconceived notions of how they WANT characters to be; be that superior or inferior to their consistent showings.
Though, some are guilty of having their biases show more often than others.
Wolverine is a mild superhuman with Peak human strength and speed, anyone with a decent amount of logic can see what is beyond the "suspension of disbelief" here.
Logan vs. DD: Logan wins about 8/10
Logan vs. Spiderman: Spiderman wins about 7-8/10
Logan vs. Cap: Logan should win about 6-7/10
Logan vs Most heavy hitters without PIS: Logan isn't doing so well. That includes Namor, I don't think Spiderman fares any better here.
I give reasons in all of my matches, and come to think of it I haven't actively debated against Wolverine in any threads since my return (only staying in Spiderman vs. Cap), like I said Wolverine is a great character, if written interesting enough and not taking hits from Drax the destroyer.
The one thing I hate is fanboys, I say it loud and proud. Read my signatures, quotes or whatever. And Logan fanboys have a bad rep because they've established it themselves. I've seen in my ridiculous amount of posts here things from Wolverine beating Iron Man by sneaking up on him, to Wolverine beating Metallo and Namor. Wolverine resisting the Phoenix, to Wolverine jumping 5 stories and walking through Cyke's blasts. The list goes on and on, oddly as much as I hate fanboys, I actually get ALONG with the Wolverine fanboys the most which I find ironic in itself. So unless you've been following my arguments more closely, (and not simply when I was goofing around), don't assume what I am or am not, because I am outspoken enough to defend myself. If I had such a "hatred" for something as silly as a comic book character, I would have said it.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Evidence is in the most hated character thread.
Evidence are in the debates here. People think Spiderman loses the majority to Cap, when he has stealth mode. 😐 They then go on to say Wolverine beats guys like Godzilla, Metallo, Iron man, (why am I even doing this again?)
Originally posted by CreshoskLike said before, people just hate his fanboys. Paris Hilton is overrated, and alot of people can't stand it simply because of that fact. Anyone who says Wolverine is underrated in this forum after reading some of these ridiculous posts (not necessarily in this thread), they are just trying to not see it.
Wolverine is number 2... How can one of the most hated characters be overrated?
Originally posted by Tha C-MasterAnd the missing the point award goes to. . .
Unless you are saying I'm a Wolverine fanboy (which is the most laughable and quotable thing I've heard in ages). You're going to have to show me these "preconceived notions", I call characters right down the line (despite me making fun of them), whether I like them or not. And I could really care less if the "integrity" of my character is being threatened, I have no need to follow and ***** about people insulting a character, in the end those are the biggest fanboys.Wolverine is a mild superhuman with Peak human strength and speed, anyone with a decent amount of logic can see what is beyond the "suspension of disbelief" here.
Logan vs. DD: Logan wins about 8/10
Logan vs. Spiderman: Spiderman wins about 7-8/10
Logan vs. Cap: Logan should win about 6-7/10
Logan vs Most heavy hitters without PIS: Logan isn't doing so well. That includes Namor, I don't think Spiderman fares any better here.I give reasons in all of my matches, and come to think of it I haven't actively debated against Wolverine in any threads since my return (only staying in Spiderman vs. Cap), like I said Wolverine is a great character, if written interesting enough and not taking hits from Drax the destroyer.
The one thing I hate is fanboys, I say it loud and proud. Read my signatures, quotes or whatever. And Logan fanboys have a bad rep because they've established it themselves. I've seen in my ridiculous amount of posts here things from Wolverine beating Iron Man by sneaking up on him, to Wolverine beating Metallo and Namor. Wolverine resisting the Phoenix, to Wolverine jumping 5 stories and walking through Cyke's blasts. The list goes on and on, oddly as much as I hate fanboys, I actually get ALONG with the Wolverine fanboys the most which I find ironic in itself. So unless you've been following my arguments more closely, (and not simply when I was goofing around), don't assume what I am or am not, because I am outspoken enough to defend myself. If I had such a "hatred" for something as silly as a comic book character, I would have said it.
Evidence are in the debates here. People think Spiderman loses the majority to Cap, when he has stealth mode. 😐 They then go on to say Wolverine beats guys like Godzilla, Metallo, Iron man, (why am I even doing this again?)
Like said before, people just hate his fanboys. Paris Hilton is overrated, and alot of people can't stand it simply because of that fact. Anyone who says Wolverine is underrated in this forum after reading some of these ridiculous posts (not necessarily in this thread), they are just trying to not see it.
First off, if you are talking in regards to soljer I agree with him, I just hate when people say I am out for a character's blood. That's soo wrong, I'm in reality after fanboy's blood, and that's only when they get annoying enough.
Originally posted by CreshoskBecause it's proof you don't like, ask just about any person why they "hate" Wolverine on this forum, and they'll go, "because of the fanboys".
Not me, because once again your point goes unproven.
You however won't accept the fact that he is overrated by what people want him to do. Your correlation is invalid.
Originally posted by CreshoskIt didn't start out that way until some serious modifications were made.
A thread was made, a poll was taken. Superman is the most hated character, Wolverine is the second most.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
First off, if you are talking in regards to soljer I agree with him, I just hate when people say I am out for a character's blood. That's soo wrong, I'm in reality after fanboy's blood, and that's only when they get annoying enough.
Originally posted by Tha C-MasterDoesn't matter why. Fact is he is.
Because it's proof you don't like, ask just about any person why they "hate" Wolverine on this forum, and they'll go, "because of the fanboys".
Originally posted by Tha C-MasterMy correlation is invalid because I won't accept invalid claims?
You however won't accept the fact that he is overrated by what people want him to do. Your correlation is invalid.
Sorry, doesn't work that way.
Originally posted by Tha C-MasterAnd?
It didn't start out that way until some serious modifications were made.
He still got ranked second most hated character. Not Spiderman, not Namor, not thing...
Originally posted by CreshoskThat's why I said he was hated, and that fact is correct, only seeing what you want to see simply proves my point more. My point was that he was overrated, and yours is that he's hated. Two different points. Honestly in terms of hating a character because they hate that character, Jubilee gets that reward. Wolverine is not the most hated in a full scale view (not just this forum).
Doesn't matter why. Fact is he is.
Originally posted by CreshoskYour coorelation was, "if a character has people saying they hate him on a joke thread, then I can use it as evidence when people say he is overrated to prove to defend Wolverine when I feel he is threatened."
My correlation is invalid because I won't accept invalid claims?
So my claim is invalid because I won't submit to your bitching about the character's integrity or value to the forum in the first place? Don't think so.
Originally posted by CreshoskBecause you don't want it to.
Sorry, doesn't work that way.
Originally posted by CreshoskThis means Superman is underrated too, I see a positive coorelation with overrated characters and why people hate them.
And?He still got ranked second most hated character. Not Spiderman, not Namor, not thing...
The sad part is you are such a hypocrite, seeing how you moan about ad populem and all, discarding it for supported evidence. This argument will just get circular with you anyways seeing as you enjoy this deep down. I need to get work done though, so enjoy your filibuster.