Who's the best swordsman?

hmm good point, but in terms of sidious vs vader in a saber duel match i would say vader has an advantage using the shien form because of his brute strength, in terms of physical strength vader can crush sidious because of a quote in rodv "he has enough strength in his mechanical hands to crush his lightsaber hilt with ease" something like that

^.~ 1 thing, OT vader is a far greater duelist than ROTS presuit vader, hes slightly slower but has greater strength and he is limited to the shien form, because the OT fights were slow people assume vader is as slow as hell but in a flashback in crimson empire, he seemed agile and fast enough to chop his opponents hands off with a vibro sword.

o ya you also mentioned sidious hasnt dueled any1 after yoda for 20 years so yea its obvious his skills get sloppish and not as good as before, same thing, vader plays with shien form for 19 years and knows its ups and downs,

for saber duel id hand it to TPM sidious who is above DE sid and ROTS sid in terms of saber combat because he stills practises with a saber, after rots its 24 years of not playing with the lightsaber which is the time of DE

Qui Gon Jinn.

Given that Qui Gon practiced Ataru. and was trained by Dooku who would have sparred with him. Then Qui Gon would have been well aware of Makashi and well prepared to defend/attack it.

If only he had kept the battle on the catwalks rather than that circular room, the battle would have had a different outcome.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
hmm good point, but in terms of sidious vs vader in a saber duel match i would say vader has an advantage using the shien form because of his brute strength, in terms of physical strength vader can crush sidious because of a quote in rodv "he has enough strength in his mechanical hands to crush his lightsaber hilt with ease" something like that

^.~ 1 thing, OT vader is a far greater duelist than ROTS presuit vader, hes slightly slower but has greater strength and he is limited to the shien form, because the OT fights were slow people assume vader is as slow as hell but in a flashback in crimson empire, he seemed agile and fast enough to chop his opponents hands off with a vibro sword.

o ya you also mentioned sidious hasnt dueled any1 after yoda for 20 years so yea its obvious his skills get sloppish and not as good as before, same thing, vader plays with shien form for 19 years and knows its ups and downs,

for saber duel id hand it to TPM sidious who is above DE sid and ROTS sid in terms of saber combat because he stills practises with a saber, after rots its 24 years of not playing with the lightsaber which is the time of DE

Do you ever have ANY proof of some of the stuff you say?
TPm sidious above DE Sidious as a duelist? Sidious 'didn't practice?' Sidious didn't duel anyone again for 20 years?

False, false and false.

Lightsnake, you're right in calling for the proof. My assumption (and I'll leave it as just that) that Sidious hasn't dueled in so long is due to the following: 1.) He loses his sabre in the fight with Yoda (of course, maybe he has a back up.. afterall, he lost a sabre in his duel with Windu), and 2.) we never see him using one again throughout the original trilogy. Did he just not show it? Perhaps. I don't know.

Still, we have to keep in mind that Sidious is running a galaxy and has far too many affairs to attend to than to be practicing his sabre skills with Vader or some other droids. To me, that's difference between Episode 1 Sidious and Episode 4 Sidious. The guy is just flat out busier. lol! Vader, on the other hand, as the "executioner," necessarily practices 1.) to get over the initial awkwardness of the suit, and 2.) because he's the martial hand of the Emperor.

I think that by the time Luke comes on the scene Sidious is so powerful that he doesn't really even need a lightsabre. Of course, the same case could be made for Vader in that he defeated Roan Shryne and Luke (in ESB) by using the Force to hurl objects at those opponents.

Of course, that's all I can really come up with. I'd be interested to know the proof that you can provide that shows that Sidious continued to hone his sabre skills? Or that he had, in fact, gone toe-to-toe in lightsabre combat with anyone after Yoda?

Sidious didn't lose his lightsaber with Yoda. For all we know, he simply put it away and opted for long ranged assaults. It makes more sense than an unarmed Sidious escaping from a fully armed Yoda, wouldn't you say?

And, yes. TPM-era Sidious is far more skilled in lightsaber combat than his RotS counterpart, who was thirteen years out of practice.

Edit: And, ESB Vader, quit being retarded. Even 'if' Luceno said that Vader = Sidious, one day, it would be defying canon, which makes him wrong. Anyways, he didn't say it in the first place.

Hate to tell you, but any movie, comic, or EU incarnation of Sidious would annihilate any form of Anakin/Vader (save for full potential Anakin - which never happened).

Doesn't the novelisation say that Yoda disarmed Sidious? The script does as well, doesn't it? Well the script at least says that Yoda disarms Sidious, but before he can kill him, Sidious unleashes lightning at him, and Yoda is described to be overpowered and falls of the pod. Not saying this is right, just saying....

Originally posted by kamikz
Doesn't the novelisation say that Yoda disarmed Sidious? The script does as well, doesn't it? Well the script at least says that Yoda disarms Sidious, but before he can kill him, Sidious unleashes lightning at him, and Yoda is described to be overpowered and falls of the pod. Not saying this is right, just saying....

Kamikz, we've argued this before.

203 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMRER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHT

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod.

This is what the "official script" says. According to this section, Yoda pretty much has Palpatine in the bag. He's disarmed him, and when Sidious recovers with a "blast of energy", Yoda turns that against him - and "it looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed."

Notice how it doesn't say anything about this happening, but Sidious curbstomping Yoda off the podium - allowing Sidious to escape. All it says is: "Yoda jumps to a lower level".

The question I posed to Nai, is that if Yoda really was so close to killing Palpatine - and was winning the fight - why would he jump to a lower pod, especially if he is conquering Palpatine in the Force fight?

I believe you can agree that my theory works better. But, neither can be proven.

I can only conclude that Lucas realized that it wouldn't be an "epic" battle if Yoda was going to just curbstomp Palpatine throughout the fight and lose by luck - and he decided to scrap it and make it look more equal.

This was removed from the movie. It's non-canon.

And, you may be right about the book. But I'm not aware of it. The book is the exact opposite of the script - and shows Palpatine curbstomping Yoda.

I like the movie's interpretation. Doesn't make either one appear weak.

Escape81, I just went back through the movie and novel, and I have to admit that you are absolutely correct about Sidious not losing his sabre. Good catch!

Just caught your most recent post, Escape. After re-reading the fight in the novel (Sidious and Yoda), I think Sidious' "curbstomping" Yoda works better simply because it demonstrates what Yoda was thinking all along: the Jedi had made no progression, no growth, while the Sith had, in fact, evolved. Yoda wasn't really ready to fight Sidious and he knew it. I'm more inclined to go along with the novel on the basis that it doesn't have the limitations that the movie has (especially time constraints for the viewing audience), and can go into much further detail than the movie. But that's just my humble opinion...

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
Lightsnake, you're right in calling for the proof. My assumption (and I'll leave it as just that) that Sidious hasn't dueled in so long is due to the following: 1.) He loses his sabre in the fight with Yoda (of course, maybe he has a back up.. afterall, he lost a sabre in his duel with Windu), and 2.) we never see him using one again throughout the original trilogy. Did he just not show it? Perhaps. I don't know.

Still, we have to keep in mind that Sidious is running a galaxy and has far too many affairs to attend to than to be practicing his sabre skills with Vader or some other droids. To me, that's difference between Episode 1 Sidious and Episode 4 Sidious. The guy is just flat out busier. lol! Vader, on the other hand, as the "executioner," necessarily practices 1.) to get over the initial awkwardness of the suit, and 2.) because he's the martial hand of the Emperor.

I think that by the time Luke comes on the scene Sidious is so powerful that he doesn't really even need a lightsabre. Of course, the same case could be made for Vader in that he defeated Roan Shryne and Luke (in ESB) by using the Force to hurl objects at those opponents.

Of course, that's all I can really come up with. I'd be interested to know the proof that you can provide that shows that Sidious continued to hone his sabre skills? Or that he had, in fact, gone toe-to-toe in lightsabre combat with anyone after Yoda?

Well, in DE, Palpatine keeps a collection of sabers and boasts how they were personal kills, so he had to hve fought sometime in the interim. And Palpatine is highly pragmatic and delegated the empire to the Moffs, governors, Vader and other hig ranking guys to allow himself freedom to pursue Sith abilities...it makes perfect sense he'd stay in shape. Emperors don't deal with everything, so Palpatine had numerous guys in charge of sectors for him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Do you ever have ANY proof of some of the stuff you say?
TPm sidious above DE Sidious as a duelist? Sidious 'didn't practice?' Sidious didn't duel anyone again for 20 years?

False, false and false.

in real life if you are a fighter and you for gods sake havnt fought for 24 YEARS you wouldnt be as good as you were wont you? you are being blind. TPM sidious is above DE sidious because he practises with the lightsaber and after that for not fighting for 24 years? wouldnt he wear down?

and show me proof that sidious fought during the 24 year time gap after yoda, prove it to me, since ROTS sidious is the emperor and lets vader do all the dirty work so why the hell would he need to fight? unless he is defending himself from an attacker but even so vader would step in and he just sits on his ass drinking coffee watching his pwn do all the sh!t.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, in DE, Palpatine keeps a collection of sabers and boasts how they were personal kills, so he had to hve fought sometime in the interim. And Palpatine is highly pragmatic and delegated the empire to the Moffs, governors, Vader and other hig ranking guys to allow himself freedom to pursue Sith abilities...it makes perfect sense he'd stay in shape. Emperors don't deal with everything, so Palpatine had numerous guys in charge of sectors for him.

we cant just assume he really killed people to get the saber, he could have lied as he lied to anakin that he knew how to cheat death which indeed he didnt when he told him "the power to cheat death has been mastered by one but if we work together we can learn"

and ok maybe he did fight but i only saw 3 lightsabers in DE 3 kills period, thats all? in 24 years? does that make him better than TPM sidious? he practises with the saber because he aint busy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, in DE, Palpatine keeps a collection of sabers and boasts how they were personal kills, so he had to hve fought sometime in the interim. And Palpatine is highly pragmatic and delegated the empire to the Moffs, governors, Vader and other hig ranking guys to allow himself freedom to pursue Sith abilities...it makes perfect sense he'd stay in shape. Emperors don't deal with everything, so Palpatine had numerous guys in charge of sectors for him.

That works for me, bro!

To think that Sidious would have allowed himself to become less than perfect at anything would be laughable.

The only Sith to engineer the revenge and to have destroyed the Jedi would never have slipped in anything.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
in real life if you are a fighter and you for gods sake havnt fought for 24 YEARS you wouldnt be as good as you were wont you? you are being blind. TPM sidious is above DE sidious because he practises with the lightsaber and after that for not fighting for 24 years? wouldnt he wear down?

and show me proof that sidious fought during the 24 year time gap after yoda, prove it to me, since ROTS sidious is the emperor and lets vader do all the dirty work so why the hell would he need to fight? unless he is defending himself from an attacker but even so vader would step in and he just sits on his ass drinking coffee watching his pwn do all the sh!t.

we cant just assume he really killed people to get the saber, he could have lied as he lied to anakin that he knew how to cheat death which indeed he didnt when he told him "the power to cheat death has been mastered by one but if we work together we can learn"

and ok maybe he did fight but i only saw 3 lightsabers in DE 3 kills period, thats all? in 24 years? does that make him better than TPM sidious? he practises with the saber because he aint busy

Proof Sidious hadn't fought for twenty years? Right, thought so. Kthx.
Proof TPM Sidious practiced with a saber while Emperor Palpatine did not? Oh, right, Palpatine made a point to NEVER let his skills slip. Why would Palpatine need to train himself to fight? To, y'know, mbe ready against those pesky little apprentices with delusions of grandeur. Common sense much?

Palpatine, in the audio shows Luke a large case of Sabers and says they were all Jedi masters whose sabers he preid from their hands, asking Luke if he knows how many Jedi were destroyed by him and his apprentice personally.
Give it a rest, Palpatine delegated day to day responsibilities to imperial governors, he had to to pursue his studies and abilities

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof Sidious hadn't fought for twenty years? Right, thought so. Kthx.
Proof TPM Sidious practiced with a saber while Emperor Palpatine did not? Oh, right, Palpatine made a point to NEVER let his skills slip. Why would Palpatine need to train himself to fight? To, y'know, mbe ready against those pesky little apprentices with delusions of grandeur. Common sense much?

Palpatine, in the audio shows Luke a large case of Sabers and says they were all Jedi masters whose sabers he preid from their hands, asking Luke if he knows how many Jedi were destroyed by him and his apprentice personally.
Give it a rest, Palpatine delegated day to day responsibilities to imperial governors, he had to to pursue his studies and abilities

proof sidious dueled and practised for 24 years? have any? no you dont and palpatines a lier and i didnt see "that many lightsabers" in DE neither did he say he killed jedi during that time why?

because luke and leia were the only jedi around that time after ROTS to DE!

What about Brand???

Vima Da Boda??

Originally posted by ESB Vader
proof sidious dueled and practised for 24 years? have any? no you dont and palpatines a lier and i didnt see "that many lightsabers" in DE neither did he say he killed jedi during that time why?

because luke and leia were the only jedi around that time after ROTS to DE!

That's great, prove he was lying. And in the audiobook, Palpatine shows Luke a case.

And, umm..."Have you any idea how many Jedi were destroyed by me and my Apprentice?"

And we know Palpatine never allowed his skills to deteriorate...he's SMART, remember?
Unless you have proof, shut up.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's great, prove he was lying. And in the audiobook, Palpatine shows Luke a case.

And, umm..."Have you any idea how many Jedi were destroyed by me and my Apprentice?"

And we know Palpatine never allowed his skills to deteriorate...he's SMART, remember?
Unless you have proof, shut up.

lightsnake quit being a fanboy, proof hes telling the truth? u also have none do you and killing a few jedis in a 24 year span aint shit compared to tpm sidious mastering his techniques to his finest.

and palpatine never allowed his skills to deteriorate? being smart doesnt mean you wont let your skills rusty, you can know everything about golf and be good at it but when u dont practise, the knowledge still remains but ur skills get rusty.

if palpatine never allowed his skills to fu*k up, then we should have seen him practising with the lightsaber for the 24 year span, you got no proof, the answer to why tpm sidious saber skills are better is already there, you are just refusing to think and go by "o he killed this guy, o he killed that guy so there fore his skills didnt get rusty". killing a few jedi after not practising still doesnt prove his skills are as good as he was in the movies

From watching Samuel L. Jackson's work in the films, I would say Mace Windu is the worst duelist. SLJ just didn't put in the practice time to look smooth.