Kobe had a pretty terrible finals considering the standards set in front of him.
In 42.8 mpg: 25.7ppg (averaged 8.8 out of 21.8 shots per game =40.5% fg, 79.6% ft), 4.7rpg, 5.0apg, 2.7stl, 3.8to, 19.67 efficiency rating (5th in the series behind KG, Allen, Pierce, and Pau)
(Remember, considering Jordan is the standard)
Ouch. That was a terrible game for the Lakers. We know they are better than that. Who knows what happened, but I'm sure there will be plenty of excuses in the coming days.
Congratulations to the Boston Celtics! I don't like the team at all, but they definitely looked like champions last night. I'm also glad to see KG get his ring. He honestly looked very happy to finally win it all!
Jordan will always be the standard to which Kobe will be compared and like it or not Kobe is the closest we have seen yet.
Its easy to look at Kobe's stats and say that would never happen with Jordan but how about looking at Jordan's teammates? By position it looks like this:
Fisher or Paxon/Harper? Pretty much a wash. Harper was a great defender though.
Kobe or Jordan? Obviously MJ but its closer than most like to admit.
Vlade or Pippen? Nuff said.
Lamar or Grant/Rodman? Lamar offensively (even though Horace had that 18ft jumper) but its not even close defensively.
Pau or Cartwright/Longley? Pau on offense but again defensively its not close. Cartwright would not be pushed around by Perkins or KG.
So its obvious by that comparison that Jordan (the one that everyone thinks won titles his whole career) had much better teammates especially on the defensive end (which is where the Lakers really lost this series). I still think MJ is a better player but even he would have struggled with this Laker team that couldnt play defense and missed a boatload of wide open shots. If you listen to what the Celtics have been saying you know there primary goal was to stop Kobe and let the other guys beat them, does this sound familiar? It should, because thats exactly what the Pistons did to Jordan when they bounced him out of the playoffs. As soon as Pippen and Grant manned up, it was all Chicago all the time. Our 2nd and 3rd options are Pau and Lamar, go check their number for the series. With all the defense loaded up on Kobe they could have had a field day if they had played aggressive, but if you watched the games you could see that they were intimidated and tentative. Kobe didnt shoot well for sure but he made the right play most of the time and gave it up to the open man, he cant make the play for them after that - its on them to play like men.
So lets not act like Jordan was the 6 title god that we see on highlights for his whole career, he is the GOAT but he only won titles when he had great defensive talent around him. If the Lakers get that and still dont win then the points are valid but at the moment they arent. History tells us that everytime Jordan went up against a great defensive team that was geared to stop him and him alone he failed, once his teammates made themselves threats then he won. Remember the deciding game against the Lakers in 91? The Bulls didnt win that one until MJ stopped going 1on1 and found the open man which was Paxon and he made the Lakers pay, Kobe made the same passes this series but the results were different. Jordan played with Pippen as his sidekick (top 50 player and sure fire hall of famer, who also guarded the toughest perimeter threat) how do you think Pierce would have done against Pippen? Kobe's sidekick is Gasol, who has made the all star team once. Pippen facilitated the offense while MJ concentrated on scoring, Kobe has to do both.
All im saying is put the stats in context before drawing your conclusions, Kobe could have played better but the blame doesnt stop at him. I could go on about Phils coaching but i've rambled on enough.
Originally posted by koolruningz
Jordan will always be the standard to which Kobe will be compared and like it or not Kobe is the closest we have seen yet.
Its easy to look at Kobe's stats and say that would never happen with Jordan but how about looking at Jordan's teammates? By position it looks like this:Fisher or Paxon/Harper? Pretty much a wash. Harper was a great defender though.
Kobe or Jordan? Obviously MJ but its closer than most like to admit.
Vlade or Pippen? Nuff said.
Lamar or Grant/Rodman? Lamar offensively (even though Horace had that 18ft jumper) but its not even close defensively.
Pau or Cartwright/Longley? Pau on offense but again defensively its not close. Cartwright would not be pushed around by Perkins or KG.So its obvious by that comparison that Jordan (the one that everyone thinks won titles his whole career) had much better teammates especially on the defensive end (which is where the Lakers really lost this series). I still think MJ is a better player but even he would have struggled with this Laker team that couldnt play defense and missed a boatload of wide open shots. If you listen to what the Celtics have been saying you know there primary goal was to stop Kobe and let the other guys beat them, does this sound familiar? It should, because thats exactly what the Pistons did to Jordan when they bounced him out of the playoffs. As soon as Pippen and Grant manned up, it was all Chicago all the time. Our 2nd and 3rd options are Pau and Lamar, go check their number for the series. With all the defense loaded up on Kobe they could have had a field day if they had played aggressive, but if you watched the games you could see that they were intimidated and tentative. Kobe didnt shoot well for sure but he made the right play most of the time and gave it up to the open man, he cant make the play for them after that - its on them to play like men.
So lets not act like Jordan was the 6 title god that we see on highlights for his whole career, he is the GOAT but he only won titles when he had great defensive talent around him. If the Lakers get that and still dont win then the points are valid but at the moment they arent. History tells us that everytime Jordan went up against a great defensive team that was geared to stop him and him alone he failed, once his teammates made themselves threats then he won. Remember the deciding game against the Lakers in 91? The Bulls didnt win that one until MJ stopped going 1on1 and found the open man which was Paxon and he made the Lakers pay, Kobe made the same passes this series but the results were different. Jordan played with Pippen as his sidekick (top 50 player and sure fire hall of famer, who also guarded the toughest perimeter threat) how do you think Pierce would have done against Pippen? Kobe's sidekick is Gasol, who has made the all star team once. Pippen facilitated the offense while MJ concentrated on scoring, Kobe has to do both.
All im saying is put the stats in context before drawing your conclusions, Kobe could have played better but the blame doesnt stop at him. I could go on about Phils coaching but i've rambled on enough.
Great read! I agree with absolutely every word you said, except for Jordan being GOAT. Nice analyzing, though.
Thanks man, Jordan is the most complete player of all time imo. No weaknesses in his game at either end of the floor and he won titles which is the all important rule when discussing greatness. Thats why i choose him as GOAT, its subjective though when you take titles out of the equation because that opens the door for Wilt who had stats that nobody will ever touch.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree Kobe is the best G in the league since Jordan and the closest thing to Jordan talent wise. I was referring to those that say Kobe is as good as Jordan **coughmarkjacksoncough**. And yes, the teams around them need to be looked at, but replace Kobe with Jordan and I would be willing to be money that Jordan doesn't play that poorly and the team does not lose by 39 in an elimination game.
To counter that, you put Kobe on either one of Jordan's championship teams and they still beat the Lakers, Blazers, Suns, Sonics and Jazz teams that the Bulls beat. Thats how close they are imo, hell the Bulls nearly made it to the finals with Pete Myers as the starting SG the year Jordan was "out". Kobe on those Bulls teams would beat this Celtic team as well, Pippen would render Pierce ineffective (and run the offense so Kobe could concentrate on scoring), Grant/Longley would have done a better job on KG (and made the mid-range jumper that was there all series long), Rodman/Cartwright would have kept Perkins off the boards and Paxon/Harper would have got the better of Rondo.
Kobe needs to play his whole career to see where he will be ranked all time, talent wise he is right up there with the best but he is still in his prime and with the Lakers getting stronger next year there is a great chance he will be right back in the finals again health permitting.
I like to think i've been fair with my comments on Kobe over the years, i have pointed out when his shot selection has been suspect (and been branded a "Kobe hater" for doing so) and when his decision making has been questionable. These playoffs have been a revelation in both departments though, he has continually made the right play instead of forcing it like he would in the past. Showing trust and confidence in his teammates when the going gets tough has been the knock on him for as long as i can remember, now he has overcome that hurdle to. This point also brings up the argument that "Jordan would have never let that happen", which is correct. He would have forced it against a Boston defense that was basically a zone and thrown up 30 plus shots and gone down guns blazing. But because we never saw Jordan play against a defense like that we dont know what the results would have been. What we do know is that Boston played a soft zone against LeBron and Kobe very effectively and contained them well. Kobe is as good a shooter as MJ and LeBron is as good at driving to the hole but against that kind of defense it really doesnt matter if your teammates dont give the Celtics a reason to guard them. Hard to imagine that Jordan would have fared any better with the same teams, although its guaranteed that he would have more shot attempts.
kobe close to mj? i'm really unsure, and, as you say, we'll have to wait until his career is over to see what they've done. he is certainly the closest to mj as we may ever get, he has the fadeaway, the size and ability are close, i think where mj has the edge though, is mentality. but, kobes mentality will develop and may get to that pantheon that mj will always be on. perhaps teh question is, when kobe is done and retires.... will people say "is so and so is the next kobe bryant?"
anyone see any big trades happening this summer? detroit seems to be the main place, as dumars has stated to expect big changes.
Originally posted by DanZeke25
Jordan would never give up a 24 point lead at home or lose by 39 at anytime during the playoffs.131-92 LOL
Switch Kobe with Jordan, and the same thing happens. I can say that with as much conviction as your statement above.
Post the link to the game where Jordan faced a zone defense. What people don't realize is that Kobe and Jordan played in two different era's. The zone defense era is what we're in right now. It's something Jordan never faced, and it's something Kobe scored 81 points against. But Boston ran it to damn near perfection, best I've ever seen.
I've seen a lot of people say that, but they have all failed to explain how. What exactly would Jordan have done differently than Kobe? For anyone who seen the game.
Originally posted by Myth
Thats the beauty of sports, everybody has an opinion. 😉Btw, I think if you put Kobe in Jordan's position, he would have still won some championships, but I'm not sold on him winning 6. One example, I think 98 Pacers would have beat a Kobe led Bulls team. They damn near did it with Jordan's Bulls.
He would have won 8, because he never would have quit basketball.
Originally posted by koolruningz
No need to apologise, there are gonna be people debating this all summer on BSPN on either side of the fence. Truth is we'll never know because MJ never had this Laker team or played this Boston team, so all we have is what ifs.
Or the decade.
It's coming to the point that debating what team is better is useless because its a different time as Lord Evo said.
Originally posted by Myth
Thats the beauty of sports, everybody has an opinion. 😉Btw, I think if you put Kobe in Jordan's position, he would have still won some championships, but I'm not sold on him winning 6. One example, I think 98 Pacers would have beat a Kobe led Bulls team. They damn near did it with Jordan's Bulls.
The teams that Jordan faced in the east playoffs were arguably stronger than the ones he faced in the west for the finals. Some of those Knicks teams were brutal as well as that Pacer team you mentioned.
I still think those Bulls teams would have enough to with Kobe to win though, i can see how you can think otherwise - it all depends on how highly you rate Kobe's game.
Evo, i have to agree with you man. Even though Jordan played in the hand checking era, zone defenses are a nightmare. If you go back and watch whole games from the Jordan era its amazing how easily he gets to the basket because the double cant come quick enough. Im gonna stop now because it may sound like im disrespecting MJ, but i do feel alot of the media wont entertain the idea that Kobe is close to Jordan's level because MJ is such an icon and Kobe is such a polarising character. Most of them cant come up with a coherent argument, its just "Why isnt Kobe on MJ's level? He just isnt, ok?" Awards and titles aside, it would have been a hell of a game of 1on1.
Originally posted by Lord Evolution
Switch Kobe with Jordan, and the same thing happens. I can say that with as much conviction as your statement above.Post the link to the game where Jordan faced a zone defense. What people don't realize is that Kobe and Jordan played in two different era's. The zone defense era is what we're in right now. It's something Jordan never faced, and it's something Kobe scored 81 points against. But Boston ran it to damn near perfection, best I've ever seen.
I've seen a lot of people say that, but they have all failed to explain how. What exactly would Jordan have done differently than Kobe? For anyone who seen the game.
yes, and it was the incredible defence of the raptors he did that against. ahem.
i'll say one thing else...
if kobe has similar stats as jordan when hes retired, and won several champs, then i would say hes possibly greater than mj. hes got zone defence to contend with, but got past that. it can only make him a better player surely?
Originally posted by vandalworks
if kobe has similar stats as jordan when hes retired, and won several champs, then i would say hes possibly greater than mj. hes got zone defence to contend with, but got past that. it can only make him a better player surely?
Isn't this the same NBA that implented zone defenses and then also told defenders the same year: no forearms on the offensively player AT ALL.
Hmmm, wonder what year Steve Nash won his first MVP... Hmm, wonder if the guys at KMC watched much basketball before 2003.
Shrug.