According to scripture, Jesus is the lawyer to defend us all, if we accept, so if Satan were to accept would he also be given this choice of the lawyer/...........Though it also says Jesus is judge,........so he is judge and lawyer and satan is the only the adversary, mean opponent....If all if forgiven for the asking, then satan should and would be forgiven.........unless Jesus is NOT JUST TO HIS WORD.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
SO, god did not create everything perfect.Make up your mind...
* the perfection is based on God's eyes, not yours... 😉
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
That is illogical. Someone can not create something perfect that is capable of being so fundamentally flawed and imperfect. And the Bible goes on about how we aren't perfect and so on. And the earth most certainly isn't perfect.Now this leads to three possible conclusions - If God is perfect his creation would be incapable of being flawed unless he willed it so - that is he created evil to be here.
Or: God is not perfect and while he created the best he could it is none the less not perfect.
Or: God is perfect, yet unable to actually create something perfect due to something fundemental in what he is creating.
* God did not create anything evil, it is us, the humans who gave in and became wicked... we have free will, why choose evil over good? and why blame God for the existence of evil whereas we are the ones have the power resist evil and cleave to what is good? 😕
* according to the Bible, people are commanded to strive for perfection, and people can achieve it, not by the judgment of other people's eyes but of God... Noah and Job are examples of perfect persons in the eyes of God... 😉
Originally posted by Madman_V3N0M
One thing is that God did not give the angels free will, but Lucifer was an angel... so... what does this mean?
* angels also have free will, ya know... that's why Satan turned his back from God... and some angels came with Satan... 😉
Originally posted by debbiejo
According to scripture, Jesus is the lawyer to defend us all, if we accept, so if Satan were to accept would he also be given this choice of the lawyer/...........Though it also says Jesus is judge,........so he is judge and lawyer and satan is the only the adversary, mean opponent....If all if forgiven for the asking, then satan should and would be forgiven.........unless Jesus is NOT JUST TO HIS WORD.
* generally, NOT ALL sins can be forgiven, so God or Christ have the power to forgive and not to forgive someone...
* consider the time element, Christ is not a judge and a lawyer at the same time... Satan is also called the "accuser", the direct adversary of the "lawyer" (Christ) and the Father stands as the "judge"...
* if Satan could be forgiven, why don't he ask for it now? because Satan himself knows that what he had done, what he's doing, and what he will do is unforgivable...
* the time element where Christ stands as the "judge" is His millenium reign after the rapture... together with Christ are the people of God... They will judge people and even angels... 😉
* nope, Satan is already condemned, and so are those angels who sided with him...
* and i don't even believe that Satan had a plan of asking forgiveness due to his character... he would just be filled with rage knowing his time of destruction is nearing... plus, he would try to deceive all people for them to be with him in his suffering...
* the deception is done with so much subtlety, one might think he is on the right track, but unfortunately, he's not... 😉
Originally posted by debbiejo
If lucifer can call opon the name of god??????????????? Then he would not be forgiven?????goes against the WORD OF GOD don't you think?
The word of God is spoken to men for man's benefit. Satan is not a man, so it is not necessarily binding in relation to him. Anything that God does in regards to Satan is quite possibly outside any binding word in the Bible. Given this, from a Biblical stance there is a possibility, but there is no contradiction with scripture with God's dealings with Satan.
Satan is about the creation of the material world, it has nothing to do with good and evil... its character was taken from other mythologies in their own versions for the creation of the world. The serpent, the dragon, and other reptiles which are usually associated to Satan are figures that represents life, and creation in other ancient cultures from where the Satan´s myth was originated from.
I believe that it was some sort of misinterpretation of the original myth that lead to this modern version. Specially because these two distinct subjects of 'good and evil' and the 'creation of the world' are easily confused since they are related to each other.
Originally posted by peejayd
* the perfection is based on God's eyes, not yours... 😉* God did not create anything evil, it is us, the humans who gave in and became wicked... we have free will, why choose evil over good? and why blame God for the existence of evil whereas we are the ones have the power resist evil and cleave to what is good? 😕
* according to the Bible, people are commanded to strive for perfection, and people can achieve it, not by the judgment of other people's eyes but of God... Noah and Job are examples of perfect persons in the eyes of God... 😉
He created evil itself
Nowhere in the bible does it say strive for perfection.
Originally posted by peejayd
* God did not create anything evil, it is us, the humans who gave in and became wicked... we have free will, why choose evil over good? and why blame God for the existence of evil whereas we are the ones have the power resist evil and cleave to what is good? 😕* according to the Bible, people are commanded to strive for perfection, and people can achieve it, not by the judgment of other people's eyes but of God... Noah and Job are examples of perfect persons in the eyes of God... 😉
God created man - is man perfect? We are told no. The very fact we can apparently choose to be "flawed" contributes to this. God creates us, he created the means through which we would fall, he made it so the utilisation of free will initially would lead us down the path of sin, he made is so that evil could exist in the unvierse, he must have made Satan, who would be a catalyst for imperfection - and yet you say God is in no way responsible, at all, for the state of the universe?
And as to Noah - was he perfect? Did he actually exist? There are some major logical problems with his story. And as to Job, well, I think that is God showing his true colors. "Oh sure Satan, I give you permission to try and break him. Do your worst, it wont matter" - always convinced me that God wasn't as white morally as people make out.
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
He created evil itself
* nope, God created everything good...
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Nowhere in the bible does it say strive for perfection.
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."
II Corinthians 13:11
* and what are these? 😕
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God created man - is man perfect? We are told no. The very fact we can apparently choose to be "flawed" contributes to this.
"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."
Ecclesiastes 7:29
* as King Solomon says... God made man upright... but men sought out many inventions...
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God creates us, he created the means through which we would fall, he made it so the utilisation of free will initially would lead us down the path of sin, he made is so that evil could exist in the unvierse, he must have made Satan, who would be a catalyst for imperfection - and yet you say God is in no way responsible, at all, for the state of the universe?
* before the creation of man, Satan had already turned his back on God, and succumbed to evil... but even before that, God created Satan as a good angel... angels have free will and Satan chose a different path - a path of evil...
* the best verse that deals with free will is this:
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
Deuteronomy 30:19
* God had set before us - life and death, blessing and curse - but gives a very blatant recommendation -> choose life... 😉
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as to Noah - was he perfect? Did he actually exist? There are some major logical problems with his story.
* let's see now...
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
Hebrews 11:7
* Saint Paul believes Noah existed...
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
I Peter 3:20
"And spared not the old world, but saved [I]Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
II Peter 2:5[/I]
* Saint Peter also believes Noah existed... so i also believe Noah existed...
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as to Job, well, I think that is God showing his true colors. "Oh sure Satan, I give you permission to try and break him. Do your worst, it wont matter" - always convinced me that God wasn't as white morally as people make out.
* that's not the whole point in the story of Job's life...
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation : for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
James 1:12
* see how powerful and wise God is? Satan tries to deceive people and make them evil... but while Satan is doing that, God promised to give a crown of life to those who endures Satan's temptations...
* in the end, Job endured the temptations, what happened?
"And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.
So Job died, being old and full of days."
Job 42:10-12, 16-17
* see? 😉