Can Satan be Forgiven?

Firstly of course - Bible claims Noah was something - by all rational reasoning the story can't be as the Bible says it is - the flood, the ark, the animals. It just doesn't work.

And what I am getting is God made man, but neither flawed or perfect. He made us with the ability to choose to be flawed, or pursue perfection. But the fact remains that as creator of it all God's creation has the avenue of the flawed, of evil built into it. God, if one believes, is not some important figure, his creation = all things in his creation. If I build a car that has the random chance of breaking down for no reason, but then again might run perfectly forever, I am still buildinn into it something not good. I am giving it the chance to break down - and I know that could happen, and will happening a lot, due to the number built. I have not created something perfect.

And as to Job - well, all that suffering God let the Devil wreak on poor old Job with God's permission was clearly worth it and not bad at all because it was proving an abstract point - even if God does let you suffer terrible loss as long as you stay loyal to him then you'll come good eventually.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Firstly of course - Bible claims Noah was something - by all rational reasoning the story can't be as the Bible says it is - the flood, the ark, the animals. It just doesn't work.

* the Flood was very much proven historically, geographically and scientifically...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And what I am getting is God made man, but neither flawed or perfect. He made us with the ability to choose to be flawed, or pursue perfection. But the fact remains that as creator of it all God's creation has the avenue of the flawed, of evil built into it. God, if one believes, is not some important figure, his creation = all things in his creation. If I build a car that has the random chance of breaking down for no reason, but then again might run perfectly forever, I am still buildinn into it something not good. I am giving it the chance to break down - and I know that could happen, and will happening a lot, due to the number built. I have not created something perfect.

* humans, by nature, are good because God created humans as good creatures...

* i see it like this: a mother is pregnant, she imagines everything nice and good for her future child... the child was born, the mother took good care of her, they lived happily... the child now was on his teens, got involved with bad friends, got hooked up with drugs, alcohol and smokes... the child was now on a rehab...

* is it the mother's fault? nope... the child has a free will... the child has two options: good and bad... the child can choose not to be involved with evil things and care for the mother... but the child also can choose the path of evil... it is the child's prerogative...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as to Job - well, all that suffering God let the Devil wreak on poor old Job with God's permission was clearly worth it and not bad at all because it was proving an abstract point - even if God does let you suffer terrible loss as long as you stay loyal to him then you'll come good eventually.

* well, you can put it that way...

"Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy."
James 5:11

* faith requires patience... 😉

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
II Peter 1:5-8

* 🙂

Originally posted by peejayd
* the Flood was very much proven historically, geographically and scientifically...

Really? Not anywhere near the degree the Bible implies. The closest parallel researchers have found is a Sumerian flood - which was serious, but no where near the Biblical one. It wasn't even a civilisation killer. Theoretically it is believed since it became part of myth in that region the Jews later picked it up and assimilated it into their faith, making it all the more serious.

As to the rest - impossible to build a boat big enough in those days to contain two of every animal and enough food for them (unless it was a TARDIS) - In fact impossible to gather enough animals to begin with. Either the story is just that, a story, or it is way exaggerated in the Bible.

* humans, by nature, are good because God created humans as good creatures...

Did he really though? If God created humans as good creatures then, logically, they couldn't help but be good. However they aren't - the potential for good and bad is in them. Humans can be duel in nature. If he really created them to be good then he messed up - his first two went bad almost instantly (let alone the theories about Lilith.) Then Cain killed Abel. Then apparently people were so completely rotten he had to commit world wide genocide to clean them away.

* i see it like this: a mother is pregnant, she imagines everything nice and good for her future child... the child was born, the mother took good care of her, they lived happily... the child now was on his teens, got involved with bad friends, got hooked up with drugs, alcohol and smokes... the child was now on a rehab...

So God is blindly idealistic and optimistic? He might not be all knowing, but he is really far less powerful then I thought. I mean even a parent who hopes their child will do well knows there is a chance that they wont.

* is it the mother's fault? nope... the child has a free will... the child has two options: good and bad... the child can choose not to be involved with evil things and care for the mother... but the child also can choose the path of evil... it is the child's prerogative...

It seems to me you are vastly depowering God. The difference here seems to be that people have far less power to influence there little creations. Doesn't matter what they think or intend the baby will grow. They have no power over it. At best they have educational power.

God, on the other hand, consciously was able to do things exactly as he wished. He had the power, he started from scratch. And of course the fact he made us in his image - if we accept that means spiritual image, then that says something about God's own good/bad ratio. If we are in his image, and we can be good or bad, then logically God would have the same choice, the same freedom.

Really the comparison between God and a pregnant mother does not work. Unless God merely chucked together things and hoped they would turn out good, but the Bible seems to imply he planned out everything - that he spoke what was in his heart, and it happened. Light, animals, man. Nothing was what he had not intended - and at some level evil and good were woven into it all.

^ A world flood has been disproved.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
^ A world flood has been disproved.

True, as I said above the closest people have come up with was a flood in the Mesopotamian region, and that was no where near a world flood. I dare say, in comparison some of the inundations in Egypt and China floods were probably more serious.

The story - it can not be taken as true in what it says.

* consider the time element, Christ is not a judge and a lawyer at the same time... Satan is also called the "accuser", the direct adversary of the "lawyer" (Christ) and the Father stands as the "judge"...

The Sheep on the right and the Goats to the left.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Did he really though? If God created humans as good creatures then, logically, they couldn't help but be good. However they aren't - the potential for good and bad is in them. Humans can be duel in nature.

* God created humans good... let's go back to a start, have you ever seen an infant born evil? nope, as the child grows, the child is good... what makes a child grow up evil is the environment, the persons around her, bad influences, etc...

* yes, there is a potential for good and evil because humans are given by God the gift of free will... we have the power to choose between good and evil...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
If he really created them to be good then he messed up - his first two went bad almost instantly (let alone the theories about Lilith.) Then Cain killed Abel. Then apparently people were so completely rotten he had to commit world wide genocide to clean them away.

* God did not messed up, it is His creatures who messed up... good creatures surrounded by good environment should not have to choose an evil path...

* God wants his people to be good, and only the household of Noah are the only ones left obeying God... the Bible says...

"Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals."
I Corinthians 15:33

* Noah and his household are surrounded by evil people, God saves Noah from them, the Flood was an instrument of salvation for Noah and his household...

"That aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:"
I Peter 3:20

* the purpose of the Flood was to save Noah from evil...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So God is blindly idealistic and optimistic? He might not be all knowing, but he is really far less powerful then I thought. I mean even a parent who hopes their child will do well knows there is a chance that they wont.

* God is almighty, but there are things which He cannot do and some He prefers not to tackle...

"Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off."
Psalms 138:6

* it does not mean that God is not powerful, it just proves that God is respectful even to the creatures lower than Him...

* there are good parents with bad children, consider that? not because the parents did not do their job as parents but the child's fault to choose an evil path...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
It seems to me you are vastly depowering God. The difference here seems to be that people have far less power to influence there little creations. Doesn't matter what they think or intend the baby will grow. They have no power over it. At best they have educational power.

* i'm not depowering God, i'm just giving the correct perception of God stated in the Bible and not according to traditions and inventions... and the God in the Bible is not omniscient, not omnipotent and not omnipresent... but the God in the Bible is still the Almighty because He is the Supreme Being that created everything and all things impossible for humans are possible for Him...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God, on the other hand, consciously was able to do things exactly as he wished. He had the power, he started from scratch. And of course the fact he made us in his image - if we accept that means spiritual image, then that says something about God's own good/bad ratio. If we are in his image, and we can be good or bad, then logically God would have the same choice, the same freedom.

* God is beyond logic, God cannot lie and God cannot change Himself, He is God from eternity to eternity...

* i accept that we are created after God's image, so we must be good in nature but when we reach the time or age to know, distinguish and choose right from wrong, that's when the free will kicks in... we have the freedom to choose good over evil or otherwise...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Really the comparison between God and a pregnant mother does not work. Unless God merely chucked together things and hoped they would turn out good, but the Bible seems to imply he planned out everything - that he spoke what was in his heart, and it happened. Light, animals, man. Nothing was what he had not intended - and at some level evil and good were woven into it all.

* i did not compare a pregnant mother to God, i just gave an example of how someone would feel for his offspring, and it would be impertinent or rather absurd for a parent to hope for his child to be evil, of course every parent in their right mind will hope for his child to be good, nice and kind...

* evil is not part of God's plan, and all of God's plans are always good... i did not even read something like, "Let there be evil... and it was good" 😛 consider this, God does not want us to be remote-controlled robots and we are given the gift of free will, the power to choose between good and evil... why blame God for evil if the person himself is responsible of choosing it? 😕

Originally posted by debbiejo
A contradictions....Who is the judge?
WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, AND ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM-Mt 25:31.
THEN SHALL THE TREES OF THE WOOD SING OUT AT THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, BECAUSE HE COMETH TO [B]JUDGE THE EARTH-1 Chr 16:33.
THE LORD...HE COMETH TO JUDGE THE EARTH: WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL HE JUDGE THE WORLD, AND THE PEOPLE WITH EQUITY-Ps 98:9.
John Chapter Five is a pivotal chapter in regard to God's judgment of men, angels, the world, the living and the dead--everyone. Judgment has been placed in the hands of humanity's one righteous man, Jesus Christ

The Sheep on the right and the Goats to the left. [/B]

* i agree that Christ is a judge but as i've said, Christ is not a judge and a lawyer at the same time... there are instances where Christ stands as a lawyer and the Father stands as a judge... there are other instances where Christ and the poeple of God stands as judges... 😉

I don’t like how it seems that Satan could never become good. People always say that no matter how bad we think we are God can forgive us, so why can’t he forgive Satan, right? I think if Satan became good and was really truly sorry for what he did things would be a lot easier. Isn’t it always said that one who has strayed from God and comes back to Him, usually comes back more faithful than ever before? Or are some things just unforgivable? And if there are, then people on Earth who do wrong things and commit a sing will have good reason to believe that their wrongs can unforgivable also. It is already an issue today, people believing that their sins are just too terrible so they don’t change their ways and come to God. That may not be the only reason they don’t come to God, but it definitely is an issue and has affected people’s thinking. I think we need more reasons for God’s doings. It would definitely help people who believe they can’t be forgiven.

I believe that God could forgive Satan. Of course, he won't have too because Satan won't ask for it. And since God knows this it is not an issue.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I believe that God could forgive Satan. Of course, he won't have too because Satan won't ask for it. And since God knows this it is not an issue.

How does God know it? Does it derive from the "God knows how it is all going to end" - which seems to raise the whole "why bother with earth" - if it is meant to be a testing ground for our souls or something it is rather useless if God knows who is and who isn't going to repent.

And he knows why they aren't...

Besides - Satan isn't stupid. He would surely think "hey, I can be bad till the final hour and then ask for forgiveness. And then do it all over again." But then again the Bible doesn't give him such an option. It is as if Satan is locked into the role he must play.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I believe that God could forgive Satan. Of course, he won't have too because Satan won't ask for it. And since God knows this it is not an issue.

I've always thought it possible myself - however, I figure..God being God and all with all his abilities(controlling time, seeing the future, omnicience, omnipresence) would be able to tell that any apology given from Satan or his demons was not a genuine one.

I figure his rationale behind any apology given by them would kind of equate to the ol saying "fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me.." or something along those lines.(except for the fact that God obviously could never be fooled)

I do think that it would make him truly happy to have all of his "sons" and "daughters" want to be with him though. Being a truly loving father as he is, and being a father myself - I'm sure Satan's rebellion against him, and the rebellion and rejection of his other children - grieves him greatly every day. More so than any human mind can imagine.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
I've always thought it possible myself - however, I figure..God being God and all with all his abilities(controlling time, seeing the future, omnicience, omnipresence) would be able to tell that any apology given from Satan or his demons was not a genuine one.

Like every human who asks for forgiveness believes. Or will never sin again.

So either God accepts prayers for forgiveness of all kinds, or he picks through them and sends people to hell saying "you didn't really mean that" - which buggers the Christian claim of "but isn't it better to become Christian... just in case? I mean, you don't believe, but God believes in you."

* however, it is not in Satan's character to ask God for forgiveness... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* however, it is not in Satan's character to ask God for forgiveness... 😉

Who defines his character?

The biased characterization of Satan of course being performed by Christians and the Bible.

* yes, the Bible... but even if you try to see other mythologies and religions, the adversary of God (or any Supreme Being) will not ask for forgiveness... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, the Bible... but even if you try to see other mythologies and religions, the adversary of God (or any Supreme Being) will not ask for forgiveness... 😉

But then few other religions have the Christian concept of forgiveness - one of Christianities selling points if I am not mistaken - an all loving God who simply asks for belief and the request for forgiveness, not earning it.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Like every human who asks for forgiveness believes. Or will never sin again.

So either God accepts prayers for forgiveness of all kinds, or he picks through them and sends people to hell saying "you didn't really mean that" - which buggers the Christian claim of "but isn't it better to become Christian... just in case? I mean, you don't believe, but God believes in you."

Heh..Heh..Heh. Well I don't think it's a matter of God not being able to accept the forgiveness - but rather I believe its a matter of God knowing the outcome which will play about after administering such forgiveness, and the condition of the heart of the individual who's asking for it.

If you know someone will attempt to betray you after you've forgiven them, what would be the benefit of the forgiveness to the person or to yourself? They would both just be lying to themselves. And lying to himself, is not something that a loving God(not man) will do. Like all of his God's creations, Satan would need to have a "repentant" spirit in order to be forgiven - which is something that is impossible for him to do.

So to clarify -- Satan knows that God is no fool, and that God will sense the "unrepentant" intentions of his heart - so he will never ask for forgiveness, because he knows that God only grants forgiveness to those who have a humble and contrite heart, something that "pride" could never bring him to have.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Heh..Heh..Heh. Well I don't think it's a matter of God not being able to accept the forgiveness - but rather I believe its a matter of God knowing the outcome which will play about after administering such forgiveness, and the condition of the heart of the individual who's asking for it.

If god knows the future...then the future is already pre-determined.

Hence, you have no free will and god controls everything.

If god controls everything, you don't sin, god makes you sin, and there is nothing you can do about it.

So, your views are contradictory.