Originally posted by olympian
1- A meteor feat that MM reproduced 2 panels after. You call him stronger than Hulk also?Plus, i dont know if you know, but DC Hercules has held the Paradise Island for centuries and Marvel Hercules dragged Manhattan with its entire population as well. They are all island lvl feats. Hulk has moved/dragged an island on its own as well. So far theres no weighting feat ABOVE these gents, here.
2- And just because its an island full of amazons, with skilled warriors it means they are better purely hand to hand? Your going here with the reputation instead actual feats. I asked an example. Or the same way can be said that just because Hercules is way older than Batman and its also skilled it automatically means hes MORE skilled than Batman. And comicbookwise it isent true. Cap/Bats > WW/Herc regulary. Mythwise its another story.
3- What earth moving strength examples of Diana, are you refering to? The ones where she had help? If your refering to earth moving feats, Hulk its all over her. Clapping cosmos, and destroying Earth sized asteroids do that.
4- Hulk has higher stamina and durability.
5- And finally how many times he can tag her to get a win? As many she will speedblitz him ala Flash to get wins. Because the times they have both done it are low in quantity.
Do you think the Hulk can beat Captain Marvel? Becuz according to Superman, WW and Cap hit exactly the same. Take into account that she is far skilled over cap, and has the same speed as cap, do you think hulk can beat cap?
Originally posted by olympian
In a slugfest? Yes, he can. Wich its exactly what this is. A fist fight.
IF you have two real world fighers fighting who are near each other in strength lvl, then how do you determine who is going to win the battle? Stamina? She has the Stamina of the Earth and can pull on the earth for more stamina, healing,and strength if she wishes.
Skill?
He's a professor, She's one of the most skilled warriors and comics.
Speed? No contest WW
Reflexes? No contest. WW
Hulk can match her in strength, ( given time)
His blunt force trauma Invulnerability is as good as hers is. I have seen both of them fall str8 out of the sky into the Earth. ONly dif is she was punched at faster than light speed.
Given her skill, strength, reflexes, she not onlyhas what it takes to counter most of his attacks, she has the strength for one good ko. He's big and brooding, She's small and agile.
He is not some amature fighter and his durability Stamina and Willpower to win is second to none he is also pretty quick for 8foot 1400pound Giant He is like steel didn't you see the pic of those dogs trying to bite him and not being able to punture the skin and there made Adamantium. Professor Hulk is no joke I would catorize him in the Classic Juggernaut strength level and being able to withstand an assult from Havok's powers from point blank range is impressive he also withstood extremely powerful blast from Clone Thanos while fighting him at Stonehenge although it burned his sky he was still very able to keep fighting
Originally posted by Draco69
No he doesn't. Read prior post.His power level at "calm" (or rather with Professor Hulk is constant) is shown numerous times. He once hauled a truckload of redwood trees that weighed about 2000 tons.
1. That was Banner-Hulk. Professor Hulk is the merged Hulk. Jurgens retconned the merged incarnation as being created by Samson rather than a merger. Subsequently, that Hulk started referring to himself as Professor.
2. The issue you refer to, IH #274 as I recall, does not give a number. Banner says it is thousands of tons and he shows no signs of struggling. In the same issue he also leaped, caught a falling train, and carried it back up to the tracks.
Professor has dynamic strength. Always did.
Originally posted by Draco69
[B]And the Thing has kicked the crap out of Grey Hulk more times than I can count.
For the record, you just said that you can't count to one.
Originally posted by Draco69
Grey Hulk somehow destroyed the asteroid after being propelled by a anti-gravatational device that allowed him to reach the asteroid. I'm giving more credit to the scientist and his device and his suggestion on where to hit the meteorite....
It was anti-magnetic rocket springs designed to boost his leaping. Yes, it added momentum, but he's still performing an absurd feat.
The scientist's suggestion was to shoot the asteroid with a gun. Hulk didn't do that.
Originally posted by Draco69
I see you don't understand that hauling planetary bodies and things the size of cities doesn't not constitute "low" Class 100. If Diana is low to mid, than Captain Marvel and Superman are around the same arena and Thor is around low to mid Class 100 as well. Where is this elusive high-level Class 100 anyway?
Superman and Captain Marvel are above her. She's in the Wonder Man's class while they're in Thor's class, IMO.
When has she ever moved a planet? She aided in planetary feats but how much, like how much of the asteroid feat was Hulk's strength and how much was the rocket springs, is unknown. I'd assume she did a fair share, though.
Hulk has exerted enough force to change the orbit of a planet and he's gotten stronger since. I don't take that to automatically mean that Hulk is leagues above others who haven't performed an equal feat.
Originally posted by Draco69
[B]I find it immensely ironic that Batman with Kryptonite Ring can tag Superman everyday of the week but Wonder Woman with Kryptonite Ring misses....
That's great. My point remains. If her skill meant as much as you want it to mean, she should own most of the top tier due to her being only a little below them.
Originally posted by Draco69
Gee, since you consider Hulk to be stronger than WW, than by your logic....😬
I'm not a comic book character. Just because in the real world you can't lift a building without it falling apart doesn't mean it'll fall apart in a comic.
Originally posted by Draco69
Skill means alot in comics....as long as your street-level. If you're street-level and you possess alot of skill you can stalemate or beat people several hundred times stronger than you.If you're superstrong and skilled like Thor, Wonder Woman, Big Barda or Hercules, than your skill is instantly forgotten and you fight like grandpa on Red Bull.
In KMC Forums, we don't make that mistake...
I didn't say she won't be the better fighter. I simply pointed out that it doesn't mean as much in the comics as it does in the real world.
The rules say they fight to the best of their ability, but also within their personalities.
Originally posted by Draco69
Wonder Woman whipped Cronos and the Shattered God. Both are Skyfather-level beings. Hyperion in true fight without PIS/CIS and the Marvel Editorial team hellbent on every Marvel Superman clone losing to the Hulk, would own Hulk. He would beat Hulk much like Superman would. Except he would take a little while longer...
Except that's not within his personality to fight the way you want him to fight. Just as Superman's not going to blitz Hulk at the speed of sound. Though Superman would take the majority over Hulk.
Originally posted by Draco69
Yes. It's Superman after all....What you consider Professor Hulk more durable and hardy than Superman....?
After a brief Sundipp...?
With Hulk's healing rate, she'd have to be a lot more vicious.
Originally posted by Draco69
He and WW were practically bathing in solar flares. He wasn't IN the Sun but he sure as hell was wading in it. It doesn't matter. He was practically on the Sun so his solar batteries were being pumped to the max. That's how he beat light from the Earth to the Sun in under two minutes. The closer he gets to the Sun, the more powerful he gets...
I don't recall that they got quite that close. I could be wrong, though.
Superman's gone faster than light without a sundip before.
Originally posted by Draco69
Yes. Speed works funny in comics. The Flash can operate at lightspeeds on one leg but 20 mph boomerang always manages to hit him.In this rule-regulated forum, speed works perfectly fine and logically so. That means no boomerangs are hitting the Flash... EVER.
So Flash isn't fighting within his personality?
Originally posted by Draco69
[B]🤨Did you fail physics? Can you imagine the amount of sheer force it would take to launch an object at faster than lightspeeds in under two minutes? The battle as a whole was under two minutes. Superman must have taken at least 30 seconds to fly their asses to the Sun. The battle as per dialogue must have last at least a minute. So the force of the punch was so strong she was knocked from the Earth to the Sun with a psi that allowed her to be thrust at speeds much greater than light from 10 to 30 seconds maximum. The entire battle lasted 1:54 seconds....
A space shuttle utilizes several million tons of force to propel them into space and go at Mach speeds several times higher than sound.
So Superman must have.....
Been fighting in a comic book where real world laws rarely apply.
Originally posted by Draco69
[B]No. It's your biased opinion that WW's speed should be completely ignored because it doesn't suit your arguement.Uh-Uh. We don't allow PIS/CIS to cloud our judgement. That means Flash, Superman, Captain Marvel, Quicksilver and yes Wonder Woman will be using their speed to the very best of their abilities as per the rules set down by the moderators.
Because if we don't, anyone could argue that Wolverine could tag the Flash and win at least 4 out of 10....
Hulk won't hit WW. He may land a lucky blow, but Diana's just too damn fast. And she has far more manueverability. And she has this nifty Skyfather-level deflecting blast vambraces that would deflect any blow that gets remotely near her. After all, Hulk is brute and WW is highly skilled Amazon....
It's hardly a biased opinion to point out that the way you want Wonder Woman to fight is not the way Wonder Woman fights. I never ignored her speed. I pointed out that she doesn't use it the way you say.
And BTW, the rules specifically say that "events of CIS are not exempt".
Originally posted by Draco69
Oh for heaven's sake.She could do this:
Fly at a guy once at supersonic speed and punch him... once.
That's not punching someone hundreds of times a second.
Originally posted by Draco69
or this:
Viable tactic. It's taken Hulk down before. Though now his need for air varies. Sometimes he doesn't have to breathe.
Originally posted by Draco69
or this:
Hit the Hulk at an unknown rate of speed, though surely fast.
I'm missing how that translates to her being likely to pummel Hulk hundreds of times a second.
The Hulk fights the hordes of Hel non-stop for days.
http://img226.echo.cx/img226/4408/stamina63qe.jpg
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
IF you have two real world fighers fighting who are near each other in strength lvl, then how do you determine who is going to win the battle? Stamina? She has the Stamina of the Earth and can pull on the earth for more stamina, healing,and strength if she wishes.Skill?
He's a professor, She's one of the most skilled warriors and comics.Speed? No contest WW
Reflexes? No contest. WW
Hulk can match her in strength, ( given time)
His blunt force trauma Invulnerability is as good as hers is. I have seen both of them fall str8 out of the sky into the Earth. ONly dif is she was punched at faster than light speed.Given her skill, strength, reflexes, she not onlyhas what it takes to counter most of his attacks, she has the strength for one good ko. He's big and brooding, She's small and agile.
1- By looking to who is the strongest of the two (slightly or not), who does better in slugfests or not (wich is what the tread is about), who is more durable and lasts longer.
In my opinion its Hulk. All around hes more suited to this kind of match - brawl- than WW is. Not that she isent qualified for such. But he is -better-. Would this be a purely hand to hand match where the skill alone its the main qualifier, she would have my backup.
2- When has WW taken more power from the Earth as she wishes? Examples.
Originally posted by JonathanosSuperman and Captain Marvel are above her. She's in the Wonder Man's class while they're in Thor's class, IMO.
Captain Marvel is debatable since they nearly the same physical powers. WW and CM both have the speed of Mercury (Hermes) and they both have strength equal or above Hercules.
Superman is a given.
Wonder Woman is not in Wonder Man's class. She's above him in strength, speed and some points durability. Not to mention all her other abilities and weapons put her above Simon.
Originally posted by Jonathanos
When has she ever moved a planet? She aided in planetary feats but how much, like how much of the asteroid feat was Hulk's strength and how much was the rocket springs, is unknown. I'd assume she did a fair share, though.
Her greatest feat of strength was lifting the Spectre with Superman. The weight of Spectre is equivalent to the mass of the entire DCU. That's far more than one measly planet. Superman and Wonder Woman could only lift him for several seconds at most. Let's say even if Superman did 99% of the muscle work, the 1% that Diana lifted on her own surpasses Hulk's smashing of an asteroid....
Her second greatest feat of strength was in Heaven's Ladder. She lifted a spier that connected several planets together. It made the planets themselves look like marbles.
Hulk has exerted enough force to change the orbit of a planet and he's gotten stronger since. I don't take that to automatically mean that Hulk is leagues above others who haven't performed an equal feat.
Originally posted by Jonathanos
That's great. My point remains. If her skill meant as much as you want it to mean, she should own most of the top tier due to her being only a little below them.
And you're completely ignoring my point and missing the complete obvious. Wonder Woman is slightly weaker than Superman in strength, however despite her being nearly on Shiva's level in skill, she fights as if though she still has a yellow belt against Superman.
Why? Editorial. No way in hell would they allow the greatest superhero alive get his butt kicked by Wonder Woman...or Martian Manhunter...or Flash or even Green Lantern. But Batman is a-okay because he's another flagship character....
Utilizing forum rules, WW's skill comes into play whether you like or not. We ignore PIS/CIS feats and we logically conclude what character could defeat another character utilizing high-end feats and their abilities.
Batman always outskills Superman even though he's just human and he moves at the pace Stephen Hawking without a wheelchair to Superman.
By your logic, his feats defeating Superman are perfectly acceptable because they happened on panel in comics and he regularly displays his ability to beat Superman.
In KMC Forums, under the rules, Superman flicks Batman into space....
Originally posted by Jonathanos
I'm not a comic book character. Just because in the real world you can't lift a building without it falling apart doesn't mean it'll fall apart in a comic.
Under forum rules, that building will fall apart unless it's Superman because his aura telekinesis somehow keeps it together.
In the real world, a human with a grappeling hook would never be able to beat a demi-god who can fly.
In comics, this is not the case.
You consider Batman winning against Superman several times valid because it happens in comics...?
By that logic, Batman should have no problem beating the Hulk. After all if he can beat Superman....
Originally posted by Jonathanos
I didn't say she won't be the better fighter. I simply pointed out that it doesn't mean as much in the comics as it does in the real world.
And your point is completely invalid. Skill doesn't mean much in comics? Please. How many times has a street-level character owned a high-tier character by judoflipping them into the ground? You're negating WW's skill because she's not a street-level character?
Again, it simply doesn't matter. WW's skill comes into play whether you like it or not under forum rules...
Originally posted by Jonathanos
The rules say they fight to the best of their ability, but also within their personalities.
And you obviously haven't the slightest clue about WW's character....
Ever wonder who Xena the Warrior Princess was based on? I'll give you clue. Look at my sig.
Diana is not Superman. Superman's character disallows him from using his speed against opponents regularly or at all because he's afraid of seriously hurting his opponent and because he considers it unfair.
However Diana isn't a pussy like Superman. She's a born and bred Amazon warrior who's been trained to kill ruthlessly since the day she could walk.
What in Diana's character would possibly disallow her from using her superspeed? Nothing. If she sees a relatively equal opponent she'll use everything she has and use everything she's learned ruthlessly.
Your method of arguing this debate is inplausible: "Let's completely ignore and take away Wonder Woman's superspeed and skill because we haven't seen it that often in comics."
🤨
Originally posted by Jonathanos
Except that's not within his personality to fight the way you want him to fight. Just as Superman's not going to blitz Hulk at the speed of sound. Though Superman would take the majority over Hulk.
It IS in Superman's personality (was the last Superman comic you've read from 1967...?) to use his superspeed against an oppoenent he knows can take it or needs to use it against....like the Hulk.
Which means Superman blitzes the bastard to a bloody pulp in seconds....
And it would make far more sense to Superman to end a battle quickly since both of them would cause tramatic damage to the area around them.
Again, a point you just simply don't get, characters will fight to the BEST of their abilities. That means superspeed.
God, it's pathetic for people to disallow superspeed from DC characters just because they don't blitz everyone they see in the comics...
Answer another question for me: Wonder Woman is in Superman's league of strength. Yet you state that Superman would take the majority over Hulk...even though you state he won't use his superspeed because it's against his character....
That makes no ****ing sense. By your right, Superman and Hulk are in the same league of strength and you seem to imply that Hulk is stronger but Superman would win the majority with superspeed. What?!
Yeah, that's hypocrisy for ya.
And by the way, Superman under forum rule stipulations would win against the Hulk 9.9/10. The .1 beign
Originally posted by Jonathanos
With Hulk's healing rate, she'd have to be a lot more vicious.
You mean like using her superspeed and Amazonian skill? Oh wait, by vicious you mean fighting at the speed of a grandmother, right....
🙄
Originally posted by Jonathanos
I don't recall that they got quite that close. I could be wrong, though.
Did you miss the double-spread page of them likened to pigs roasting over a campfire....
Originally posted by Jonathanos
Superman's gone faster than light without a sundip before.
In space. Where the Earth's electromagnetic field and ozone layer doesn't filter sunlight which clearly isn't the case in space...especially when there's so many other stars in space.....
Originally posted by Jonathanos
So Flash isn't fighting within his personality?
Flash is fighting at his very best. That means knocking the poor SOB out he faces in under picosecond.
You have this warped logic of Flash fighting at his very best under his character as fighting at a speed where he can be tagged by anyone under the speed of sound and he won't go faster than sound because his "character" won't allow it.
You don't understand the meaning of "character". Character means that the character acts within his mental faculties. Tron and Paula specifically meant the character will go all out...but he/she will fight in the range of his/her intelligence and skill.
That means, Iceman will not convert the upper atmosphere into hydrogen atoms even though his powers will allow him to simply because he's not that smart. This also means that Storm will not create a snowstorm with acid rain. It's within her powers to do so but she's not skilled enough with her powers to do so.
There's NOTHING not in WW's character whether it be intelligence, skill or for that matter moral reason for her NOT to use superspeed and her fighting skills. She's not that stupid. She's not a amateur and she's certainly doesn't prescribe to holding back because it's not fair....
Originally posted by Jonathanos
Been fighting in a comic book where real world laws rarely apply.
DUH!
That's why Captain America can beat Thor's ass when he doesn't have his hammer...
In KMC Forums, however, that means that real world rules apply. Logic applys. And PIS/CIS doesn't apply....
Originally posted by Jonathanos
It's hardly a biased opinion to point out that the way you want Wonder Woman to fight is not the way Wonder Woman fights. I never ignored her speed. I pointed out that she doesn't use it the way you say.
Superman doesn't heat vision people's heads off. But under forum rules he will if stipulations grant it so.
Again, what "way" does Wonder Woman fight? Have you ever even picked up a WW comic. At all? She fights with skill. She fights with speed.
And under forum rules she will be more of a monster since no PIS will hold her back...
Originally posted by Jonathanos
And BTW, the rules specifically say that "events of CIS are not exempt".
The rules stipulate that events of CIS are not exempt if the character regularly shows lack of intelligence or skill to use his/her powers correctly. Like Absorbing Man.
Absorbing Man has the potential to be a nearly-unstoppable force. However because he's so damned stupid, he can be easily be beaten by lesser opponents.
WW does not lack intelligence nor skill to use her speed efficently and ruthless.
Any time she does hold back is solely for plot and plot alone.
Originally posted by Jonathanos
Fly at a guy once at supersonic speed and punch him... once.That's not punching someone hundreds of times a second.
Wonder Woman does not have Down's Syndrome. She's not as stupid as you would like to think.
Let's say we completely ignore forum rules and say WW flies or runs at the Hulk at supersonic speeds and hits him once. It likely won't knock the Hulk out. So, what now? No more superspeed? NO. WW uses her supersonic speed to hit the Hulk twice instead of once because obviously once didn't work. That won't work. Let's try three. Four. Twelve. Fifty. One Hundred....
You're just coming out with weird and desperate ways to limit WW's abilities. According to you, she won't use her superspeed at all and if she does she only use it to hit him once. And WW will apparently forget her skill and fight like a child because skill doesn't matter in comics....
You're making perfect sense.
🙄
Originally posted by Jonathanos
Viable tactic. It's taken Hulk down before. Though now his need for air varies. Sometimes he doesn't have to breathe.
Hulk doesn't need to breathe in water. For some goddamned reason, he has gills...
In space or a pressure containment area however is another question.
And WW is smart gal. Let's say she uses this "viable" tactic. While trying to run around him and suck the air out of his lungs why doesn't she stick out her fist and strike him every so and often.
But according to you she won't do that right?
😬
Originally posted by Jonathanos
Hit the Hulk at an unknown rate of speed, though surely fast.I'm missing how that translates to her being likely to pummel Hulk hundreds of times a second.
When she runs at superspeeds, her feet hit the grounds hundreds of times per second. She uses her leg muscles and her legs and feet stretch outward to strike the ground.
Are you still with me?
Now, let's say Wonder Woman uses her arm muscles to stretch out her arms and fists at the same speed she uses her legs to run at superspeed. What do you get? A speedblitz. As shown below:
Originally posted by rotiart
Hulk outlasts WW. Nothing she does can ever kill him... and as she gave up her immortality for a man... well.. she dies from old age.
🤨
Killing him isn't necessary. KOing him is. And Hercules and Namor have....
And I have NO idea where you got the idea that she gave up her immortality for a man.
Jesus....
She's immortal. She'll live forever and ever unless A) she dies in combat (in which she'll just ascend to the Goddess of Truth) and B) she doesn't visit Paradise Island once in a while to renew her immortality.
She never gave up her immortality for a man. Hell, she hasn't had a steady boyfriend or date for the last three decades....
When did WW "whip" Cronos? IIRC, he owned her as easily as he beat everyone else. Then she tapped into the Godwave and it stopped him. Or something like that.
Given that I beleive DC Cronos is a level above Darkseid in power (yes, this is coming from ME) based on his Ares and Zeus fights, I have trouble beleiving WW beat him straight up.
Originally posted by olympian
1- By looking to who is the strongest of the two (slightly or not), who does better in slugfests or not (wich is what the tread is about), who is more durable and lasts longer.In my opinion its Hulk. All around hes more suited to this kind of match - brawl- than WW is. Not that she isent qualified for such. But he is -better-. Would this be a purely hand to hand match where the skill alone its the main qualifier, she would have my backup.
2- When has WW taken more power from the Earth as she wishes? Examples.
Waitaminute. You believe that Hercules can beat the Hulk in a slugfest and you've testifyed numerous times that Namor has beaten the Hulk in a slugfest.
But WW can't?
Let's say Hercules fights the Hulk in a slugfest. Would he lose? You believe that Hercules is the strongest character in comics (99% of us in KMC disagree but we'll let that slide...). That's fine. But Hulk would eventually reach his level of strength, right? And Hulk will eventually grow stronger than him, right? And Hulk can withstand anything Hercules dishes out and his healing factor will take care of everything, right?
So despite the fact that WW may be weaker, stronger or equal to Hercules in strength she has alot more going for her. Like superspeed and superreflexes. And her vambraces that can form an impenetrable forcefield to block the unlikely blow that Hulk will land.
Oh, by the way. I believe that Hercules could win if he used his skills and god-like reflexes. At least one of us is giving the characters credit...
