Why would he be lying? Have you been there, have you lived there for 16 years? He is a true Christian, 100 percent, believes it to the core, he is not my co-worker, he is a member at the health club I work for. His experience was good, is there something wrong with that? He seems like an average guy, would never have guessed he was from Saudia Arabia, I was very surprised when he told me all of this, I was very inquisitive, but I do not think he was lying.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
In what way were his words inflamatory? He quoted an ancient text.This is the question I pose - What makes Muslims better than any other religious group, that noone may say anything regarding their religion?
Why is their religion more important than that of Jews and Christians?And why may the Arab nations call Jews all kinds of names, teach their children to hate jews and praise Hitler, yet pope's words, which by the way, were mare quoting of medevil text, cause such an upheavel?
Second, your assumption of 200 people rioting is not right. Considering that a Italian nun has been shot in Somalia over this, and a numerous churches in Gaza stripp attacked and bombed, and the Muslim clerics have called out for the death of Pope, I would take that as a more than 200 people rioting.
I only saw the demonstrations in London, however.
If you believe that any comment can produce this kind of oubrake, and feel its justifyable, then I say you are wrong, in my opinion.
Why is our freedom of speach limited when it comes to Muslims?
I praise Pope for having the guts to say what he did, and I praise him more for being the only Pope to have ever made such an appology in history of Catholisism.All Muslims did with this rioting is prove his comments correct.
Listen. I've repeatedly said that I disagree with the Islamic communites reaction. So please stop arguing that point with me. Becasue its redundant...amd I'm not arguing it.
The pope quoted a text that made an inflamatory statement about Muslims. He didn't need to quote it, it didn't add anything to his speech. It was just extra inflamatory bullshit.
Given his role as an international leader and a very public Christian figure, as well as the current relations between Muslims and Christians, he should not quoted it.
Of course he has free speech, but he has an international obligation. If he can quote about the evils of Islam....why can Muslims say that Israel can be destroyed.
The Pope should be more cautious about the words he chooses given his international status and the extremely volitale global situation. I've read the contaect that the quote was given in. It could have easily been left out and it would have made no difference. It was stupid.
Beating a wound does not help it heal...it only makes it worse.
Originally posted by UshgarakI just hope they know they are making fools of themselves because there is nothing anti islamic in that speech. The pope was talking about violence in religion, any religion and was saying that it is not compatable with the will of God. He said he was reminded of a 14th century document where the emperor said mohammed only brought evil. Muslims thought he was trying to link islam to violence so they go out and commit violence. If he was trying to link islam to violence it looks like they just proved him right but he wasn't. He wants to have dialog but him and muslims can't have meaningful dialog if they can't say what they think. Muslims reaction to this imaginary offense is totally rediculous and they're acting like spoiled brats with all the logic and temperment of a 2 year old.
"Whilst Muslims might express their criticism of Islam and of Christianity, he argued, they would never defame the Holy Bible or Jesus Christ."Because that's part of their canon! It's like a Jewish person saying he would never attack the Christian Old Testament. Well, of course he wouldn't!
But many Muslims certainly treat JC and the Bible in a way that is highly offensive to Christians.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotHe didn't criticise islam or any other religion. He was talking about violence not being compatible with the will of God. Muslims twist things around so much to make themselves look like the victim it's pathetic. Here is the speech and there isn't anything anti islamic in it.
That being said, frankly Benedict is a bit of a moron if he didn't anticipate such a reaction and the Catholic church is really in no position to be critical of other religions.
This is the quote that they're mad about. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". They don't have a reason to be mad.
Originally posted by Bardock42They act like spoiled brats and make themselves and islam a laughing stock but it's their religion. It's like they're saying slam is a religion of peace and you better believe it or we'll kill you, we'll burn dowmn churches and do violence until you agree that islam is peaceful. I just hope they know they're making fools of themselves.
Even if what you are saying was true (and I don't think it was meant to attack the Islam) it still is crazy how Islamists reacted on it...their leaders bring anti-semitic statements on a daily basis, but no one is allowed to condemn the violence the Islam brings? That is bullshit. This is wrong in two aspects, for one the pope didn't do what they claim he did and even if they have no right to react to it that way. They want to keep a double standard why should the pope have to submit to that?
Sorry, for the DP, but I ran out of edit time.
Time seems to agree with my points.
"Benedict in fact stated clearly [at his Sunday Angelus prayer] that he did not agree with the Emperor, and that he respects Muslims — two points that should have been inserted in his speech right next to the emperor's black-and-white quote. "
"Benedict's speech last Tuesday at his old university in Bavaria was undoubtedly provocative and open to a range of interpretations."
It also appears that he didn't have major outside editing done on his speech...others might have elimnated this worthless quote or made it clear what the Pope's position was.
You can complain about the Islamic reaction all you want. But the bottom line is that quote shouldn't have been in his speech...or he sould have made it clear that the Emperor was a twisted f*ck who didn't understand Islam.
Originally posted by AllianceI thought it was a good speech and it wasn't anti islamic at all. http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002966.html#more
I haven't read a transcript of the speech, but then why not address a broader slice of violence, emphasizing Christianity first, then making a point about Islam. Change in Islam is going to be internal, not from the Pope.
It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor.
The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between - as they were called - three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an.
It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point - itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole - which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.
In the seventh conversation [text unclear] edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion".
According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war.
Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably ... is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident.
I know the context of the statement, I've read the transcript of the speech.
Congratualtions on your copy and paste skillz.
The statement was hateful and anti-Islam, as it specifically attacks Muhammad. The Pope quotes it and then does not refute it. Its not a jump at all to then project the statemetns of the Emperor onto the quote itself.
You haven't counteracted any of my points, which make self-evident that that quote should not have been in that speech. Period.
Originally posted by Afro CheeseHe was speakingof violence in general and how it relates to religion. His message was that religious people shouldn't be violent so the muslims become violent which doesn't make a bit of sense.
Why does he have to speak of Chirstian violence to be able to justify him speaking of Muslim violence? Sure, there are plenty of Christian atrocities throughout history to speak of, but the difference here is that Christians seemed to have, for the most part, stopped their violent ways. There are a select few psychos that still want to kill abortion doctors and whatnot, but the bottom line is the general Christian populace don't riot in the streets anytime anyone says or does something they disagree with.Today's issue is not Christian violence, it's Muslim violence. So for him to address this issue by bringing up the flaws of Christianity, he'd be pussyfooting around the real issue at hand. Which is, apparently, what the Muslim world has come to expect.
Originally posted by Alliance
You can complain about the Islamic reaction all you want. But the bottom line is that quote shouldn't have been in his speech...or he sould have made it clear that the Emperor was a twisted f*ck who didn't understand Islam.
Oh I love this!
And you understand Islam?
Not only do you have no idea regarding ANY aspect of Islamic history, you also have no clue regarding the religion nor what it says nor do you know any of Muhammad's biography, past or deeds, yet you insist on making a bold statements which are mind numbing with stupidity.
You know nothing reagrding Islam beyond what the TV tells you! How can you debate medevil text?!
Islam spread by sword. A Muhammad himself says so in the Hadiths!
What Pope said (technically) was true!
While Muslim religious leaders are calling out for murder of all Jews, Christians and West, its ok. But when Pope points this out it is all of a sudden an outrage?
This double standard bullshit does not work on me.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh I love this!And you understand Islam?
Not only do you have no idea regarding ANY aspect of Islamic history, you also have no clue regarding the religion nor what it says nor do you know any of Muhammad's biography, past or deeds, yet you insist on making a bold statements which are mind numbing with stupidity.
You know nothing reagrding Islam beyond what the TV tells you! How can you debate medevil text?!
Islam spread by sword. A [b]Muhammad himself
says so in the Hadiths!
What Pope said (technically) was true!While Muslim religious leaders are calling out for murder of all Jews, Christians and West, its ok. But when Pope points this out it is all of a sudden an outrage?
This double standard bullshit does not work on me. [/B]
Nuff said.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh I love this!And you understand Islam?
Not only do you have no idea regarding ANY aspect of Islamic history, you also have no clue regarding the religion nor what it says nor do you know any of Muhammad's biography, past or deeds, yet you insist on making a bold statements which are mind numbing with stupidity.
You know nothing reagrding Islam beyond what the TV tells you! How can you debate medevil text?!
Islam spread by sword. A [b]Muhammad himself
says so in the Hadiths!
What Pope said (technically) was true!While Muslim religious leaders are calling out for murder of all Jews, Christians and West, its ok. But when Pope points this out it is all of a sudden an outrage?
This double standard bullshit does not work on me. [/B]
👆
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh I love this!And you understand Islam?
Not only do you have no idea regarding ANY aspect of Islamic history, you also have no clue regarding the religion nor what it says nor do you know any of Muhammad's biography, past or deeds, yet you insist on making a bold statements which are mind numbing with stupidity.
You know nothing reagrding Islam beyond what the TV tells you! How can you debate medevil text?!
Islam spread by sword. A [b]Muhammad himself
says so in the Hadiths!
What Pope said (technically) was true!While Muslim religious leaders are calling out for murder of all Jews, Christians and West, its ok. But when Pope points this out it is all of a sudden an outrage?
This double standard bullshit does not work on me. [/B]
lil bitchiness are you raising the standards on us? 😆
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh I love this!And you understand Islam?
Not only do you have no idea regarding ANY aspect of Islamic history, you also have no clue regarding the religion nor what it says nor do you know any of Muhammad's biography, past or deeds, yet you insist on making a bold statements which are mind numbing with stupidity.
You know nothing reagrding Islam beyond what the TV tells you! How can you debate medevil text?!
Islam spread by sword. A [b]Muhammad himself
says so in the Hadiths!
What Pope said (technically) was true!While Muslim religious leaders are calling out for murder of all Jews, Christians and West, its ok. But when Pope points this out it is all of a sudden an outrage?
This double standard bullshit does not work on me. [/B]
Good points, but unfortunately one has to be PC these days in regards to Islam. Islamic leaders can without a care in the world, drop lines like "The Great Satan" and "Zionist" in derogatory tones and it is expected to be taken with a grain of salt... But anyone even implies that Islam has caused harm is automatically labeled an insensitive bigot and as we have seen in respect to the Pope, their beheading is called for as you have mentioned.
"Of course he has free speech, but he has an international obligation. If he can quote about the evils of Islam....why can Muslims say that Israel can be destroyed."
I presume you mean "can't", but regardless, your comparison is poor.
People can criticise Israel all they like. Saying it should be destroyed it an entirely different matter.
The Pope was not asking for Islam to be eliminated. He was making a speech in which he abhored the use of violence to spread faith, and highlighted, using that quote, that this is an issue with Islam. Which is absolutely the truth, there IS an issue there.
I am sick of people censoring themselves fromn the truth on this kind of issue. Kudos to the Pope for refusing to be so censored.
Some points need to be made.
Bottom line is- it is absolutely and fundamentally wrong to exempt Religions from being criticised. It is a fundamental free sppech issue, and more people with international standing should be unafraid to take such a stance.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh I love this!And you understand Islam?
Not only do you have no idea regarding ANY aspect of Islamic history, you also have no clue regarding the religion nor what it says nor do you know any of Muhammad's biography, past or deeds, yet you insist on making a bold statements which are mind numbing with stupidity.
You know nothing reagrding Islam beyond what the TV tells you! How can you debate medevil text?!
Islam spread by sword. A [b]Muhammad himself
says so in the Hadiths!
What Pope said (technically) was true!While Muslim religious leaders are calling out for murder of all Jews, Christians and West, its ok. But when Pope points this out it is all of a sudden an outrage?
This double standard bullshit does not work on me. [/B]
I find it hilarious how the hypocrisy between religions keeps going back and forth...both Christianity AND Islam are the basis for much violence, discrimination, etc. that has occured throughout history.
I just find it funny how Christianity and Islam will both accuse each other of corruption, etc. when BOTH are corrupt and have been used to power, greed, etc.
It just so happens that TODAY Islam is responsible for more of the suffering and deaths that have occured....Christianity as of now, is pretty much only responsible for social injustices, but not for the massive terrorism and physical mistreatment of innocent people.
If I were to make an observation of which religion contains the more dangerous Zealotry.....Islam wins my a mile !
Originally posted by Ushgarak
"Of course he has free speech, but he has an international obligation. If he can quote about the evils of Islam....why can Muslims say that Israel can be destroyed."I presume you mean "can't", but regardless, your comparison is poor.
People can criticise Israel all they like. Saying it should be destroyed it an entirely different matter.
The Pope was not asking for Islam to be eliminated. He was making a speech in which he abhored the use of violence to spread faith, and highlighted, using that quote, that this is an issue with Islam. Which is absolutely the truth, there IS an issue there.
I am sick of people censoring themselves fromn the truth on this kind of issue. Kudos to the Pope for refusing to be so censored.
Some points need to be made.
Bottom line is- it is absolutely and fundamentally wrong to exempt Religions from being criticised. It is a fundamental free sppech issue, and more people with international standing should be unafraid to take such a stance.
I agree the Pope can say whatever the hell he wants, just the way the rest of us say whatever the hell we want.....but..likewise....Muslims have every right to defend their Faith and offend him back.