Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I agree the Pope can say whatever the hell he wants, just the way the rest of us say whatever the hell we want.....but..likewise....Muslims have every right to defend their Faith and offend him back.
Yes, but when violence gets involved, the right to free speech must be waved, because the right to life is a higher right.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh I love this!And you understand Islam?
Not only do you have no idea regarding ANY aspect of Islamic history, you also have no clue regarding the religion nor what it says nor do you know any of Muhammad's biography, past or deeds, yet you insist on making a bold statements which are mind numbing with stupidity.
You know nothing reagrding Islam beyond what the TV tells you! How can you debate medevil text?!
Islam spread by sword. A [b]Muhammad himself
says so in the Hadiths!
What Pope said (technically) was true!While Muslim religious leaders are calling out for murder of all Jews, Christians and West, its ok. But when Pope points this out it is all of a sudden an outrage?
This double standard bullshit does not work on me. [/B]
And once again you can't understand what a main point is. Can you not read?
I never claimed I understood everything. Get over yourself.
That quote should not have been there. Period.
The reaction is a whole different story, one which I have never argued. Being rational, deliberate, and in control solves problems. I'm sure your fight fire with fire solution will solve the issue. Good luck with that.
Originally posted by Alliance
And once again you can't understand what a main point is. Can you not read?I never claimed I understood everything. Get over yourself.
That quote should not have been there. Period.
The reaction is a whole different story, one which I have never argued. Being rational, deliberate, and in control solves problems. I'm sure your fight fire with fire solution will solve the issue. Good luck with that.
Sorry bro, but I find it funny how you can attack Christianity and then defend Islam when they are both guilty of hypocrisy, corruption, and conflict.
I do, however, agree that to just condemn Islam as a whole is the wrong way to go about this...
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I agree the Pope can say whatever the hell he wants, just the way the rest of us say whatever the hell we want.....but..likewise....Muslims have every right to defend their Faith and offend him back.
Yes, they have every right to offend him back.
What they shouldn't have is the right to threaten his life, and make further hate-filled attacks, without reason or sense, against what he represents.
That kind of thing is beyond the pale. The reaction of the extremist part of the Muslim world goes beyond the borders of free sppech.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Sorry bro, but I find it funny how you can attack Christianity and then defend Islam when they are both guilty of hypocrisy, corruption, and conflict.I do, however, agree that to just condemn Islam as a whole is the wrong way to go about this...
😆 I'm commenting on the Pope's speech and his frankly stupid comment. I'm commenting on how he failed as an international leader and as a Christian.
SO. I AM NOT DEFENDING THE REACTION OF ISLAM.
I am attacking the Pope's stupid speech. And saying that this whole situation (out of which nothing good is coming right now) could have been avoided by a little common sensea nd proper speechwriting.
But I'm glad we agree on the last point.
Originally posted by markie
He might not have thought to say he didn't agree with the emperor since his speech wasn't specificly about islam.
I don't know why a person would use a text in a speech if they didn't agree with it unless it was to use it to make a point about what he wasn't agreeing with.
Still, and even TV stations and news etc. knows they haven't use disclaimers "The opinions etc of the following in no way reflect those of this station etc." - Because people take things personally. Crazy as it is.
Originally posted by goatstradamusThey missed the point of the speech. They thought he was picking on islam but he was criticizing any religion. I guess they are mad because his quote refered to islam as an example. http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/008071.php
question for everyone:
why do you think a lot of muslims are reacting like this?
Like, just as an example.. if someone was acting really defensive, what would you suspect is going on?I mean, their is an explanation for what is happening here... its not like angry militant islam just appeared out of thin air.
This is something that I think the pope would or should be aware of... the history of the region, how things came to be.. how things perpetuate.... and how his words are going to be viewed.... I'm not saying nobody should ever say anything bad about islam, but I guess am having trouble understanding what exactly the purpose behind his words were...
If you want to make a point about how faith and violence do not go together thats all fine and dandy.. but it might not be so great an idea to single out another religion when your the pope...for one thing, I think we all know catholicism has no leg to stand on when critizing islam or any other religion for that matter about violence. Plus, look at whats happening in the world right now...wether you like it or not, thats reality...and a lot of muslims (understandably) are probably feeling very vulnerable right now... and when in a vulnerable place, human beings can be much more easily put on the defensive, be manipulated, victimized, and led along.....its common knowledge that in times of crisis people look for support. Often times people choose to join a religion or choose to be more pious...or perhaps join a religious group with a very extremist view point....can you really pass judgement on them for this?So then you have the pope who decides to publicy pick out and criticize islam ... islam, the only support some of these people have in these communitys... just for example, after the ceasefire went into effect with isreal and lebanon, it was hezbollah that started rebuilding lebanons infrastructure and making sure people had water, electricty and so forth while the actual government of lebanon did very little.....
The pope really should understand this...his words are simply adding fuel to the fire...
If he really understood then he would not have said what he did IMO.
Originally posted by Alliance
😆 I'm commenting on the Pope's speech and his frankly stupid comment. I'm commenting on how he failed as an international leader and as a Christian.SO. I AM NOT DEFENDING THE REACTION OF ISLAM.
I am attacking the Pope's stupid speech. And saying that this whole situation (out of which nothing good is coming right now) could have been avoided by a little common sensea nd proper speechwriting.
But I'm glad we agree on the last point.
No actually, basing your point, which is rather unclear on your hate of Christianity as an institution.
Why don't we reverse the situation and assume that the Muslims religious leader said something about Christianity. What would you say to that then?
Nothing. You would say absolutely nothing, and perhaps you would even agree.
I know this for a fact, because it is happened, its happening and it will happen more, and noone says ANYTHING.
As Ush already mentioned, kudos to Pope for overlooking this kind of bullshit, and saying what he really means.
I am also sick of people putting double standards on Christianity and Islam, espacially since Islamic history is so soaked with blood it puts Christian history to shame.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I find it hilarious how the hypocrisy between religions keeps going back and forth...both Christianity [b]AND Islam are the basis for much violence, discrimination, etc. that has occured throughout history.I just find it funny how Christianity and Islam will both accuse each other of corruption, etc. when BOTH are corrupt and have been used to power, greed, etc.
It just so happens that TODAY Islam is responsible for more of the suffering and deaths that have occured....Christianity as of now, is pretty much only responsible for social injustices, but not for the massive terrorism and physical mistreatment of innocent people.
If I were to make an observation of which religion contains the more dangerous Zealotry.....Islam wins my a mile ! [/B]
Christianity has overcome its violence and persecution.
Christians are far less likely to react in violent ways. Let me give you an example.
Theo Van Gogh made a short movie expressing his feelings for Islam. Within a week or so he was stabbed 10 times and shot, with a note left on his bloody corpse saying that noone will say anything against Islam, and those who do will feel the wrath of Allah.
Dan Brown has written a book which defies the very base of Christian faith. They have made a movie too.
The actors, directors and Dan Brown are all still alive and well.
Let me ask you something, would you rather be a Christian in Egypt, or a Muslim in Rome?
Would you rather be a Christian in Saudi Arabia, or a Muslim in United States?
Would you rather be a Hindu in Iran or a Muslim in India?
Christianity has social damages - Islam has them more. Teaching a child to hate is the worst kind of child abuse.
Children of Muslim world are thought to hate the Jews, to hate Israel, to hate the west and all which is not muslim.
I promise you. Those kids will grow up, the eggs will hatch, and i hope I will be long dead before the west turns its head towards the problem and once and for all recognises it.
Islamic extremists have declared the war on the west and all that is non-muslim!
And West WILL LOSE THIS WAR. You will lose this war because you will stranngle yourself with your political corectness and willing blindness to what is happening.
It makes me sad to see how many are willingly accpeting ignorance, too frightened to look into the issue. Too damn scared to research what is being shown in an ISlamic television, what is written in Childrens books and what are children thought.
The worst thing it not, not knowing is not willing to know.
Originally posted by BackFireThey say they are peaceful but if you accuse them of violence they make liars out of themselves.
I think it's funny that when the muslim religion is said to bring about violence, they retort the accusation by acting violently. I wonder if they're just trying to be cute about it.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
No actually, basing your point, which is rather unclear on your hate of Christianity as an institution.Why don't we reverse the situation and assume that the Muslims religious leader said something about Christianity. What would you say to that then?
Nothing. You would say absolutely nothing, and perhaps you would even agree.
I know this for a fact, because it is happened, its happening and it will happen more, and noone says ANYTHING.As Ush already mentioned, kudos to Pope for overlooking this kind of bullshit, and saying what he really means.
I am also sick of people putting double standards on Christianity and Islam, espacially since Islamic history is so soaked with blood it puts Christian history to shame.Christianity has overcome its violence and persecution.
Christians are far less likely to react in violent ways. Let me give you an example.Theo Van Gogh made a short movie expressing his feelings for Islam. Within a week or so he was stabbed 10 times and shot, with a note left on his bloody corpse saying that noone will say anything against Islam, and those who do will feel the wrath of Allah.
Dan Brown has written a book which defies the very base of Christian faith. They have made a movie too.
The actors, directors and Dan Brown are all still alive and well.Let me ask you something, would you rather be a Christian in Egypt, or a Muslim in Rome?
Would you rather be a Christian in Saudi Arabia, or a Muslim in United States?
Would you rather be a Hindu in Iran or a Muslim in India?Christianity has social damages - Islam has them more. Teaching a child to hate is the worst kind of child abuse.
Children of Muslim world are thought to hate the Jews, to hate Israel, to hate the west and all which is not muslim.I promise you. Those kids will grow up, the eggs will hatch, and i hope I will be long dead before the west turns its head towards the problem and once and for all recognises it.
Islamic extremists have declared the war on the west and all that is non-muslim!
And West WILL LOSE THIS WAR. You will lose this war because you will stranngle yourself with your political corectness and willing blindness to what is happening.It makes me sad to see how many are willingly accpeting ignorance, too frightened to look into the issue. Too damn scared to research what is being shown in an ISlamic television, what is written in Childrens books and what are children thought.
The worst thing it not, not knowing is not willing to know.
Did you not read my actual post ? I was agreeing with you for the most part...
I clearly said that the ZEALOTRY in Islam is so much more dangerous than the zealotry in Christianity....
I also said that as of TODAY Islam is responsible for far more physical violence, while Christianity is pretty much only responsible for social injustices and equal rights violations.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Did you not read my actual post ? I was agreeing with you for the most part...I clearly said that the ZEALOTRY in Islam is so much more dangerous than the zealotry in Christianity....
I also said that as of TODAY Islam is responsible for far more physical violence, while Christianity is pretty much only responsible for social injustices and equal rights violations.
I wasn't disagreeing, I was making extra points. I should have put '...' inbetween the paragraphs.
I appologize if I offend with my strong approach (Allience, apologiy to you as well), but this is something I feel very strongly about in real life, and such reflects strongly online.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenYes, it's called freedom of speech! Unfortunately the Muslims don't believe in that.
I agree the Pope can say whatever the hell he wants, just the way the rest of us say whatever the hell we want.....but..likewise....Muslims have every right to defend their Faith and offend him back.
I think that the Islamic world is not being held to a eqaul standard right now, but I dont think it should be.
The danger of loosing the Islamic nations for ANOTHER generation, ESPECIALLY the Middle East, would be catastrophic (we've seen how catastophic loosing one generation can be already).
Lets remember that this incident tapped into a well of hatred that has been accumulating, (mostly and especially, but not exclusively) because of the US's actions since 2001. This is not an isolated incident.
Lets also remember that many people in these areas of the world do not have access to unbiased media and education systems, they will believe what they are told (by a powerful few that control information flow) out of an innate sense fo trust that will not be destroyed int eh short term.
Given the situation, comments like the Popes are unjustified, as is holding the Islamic world to an identical standard regarding free speech. If we tone down our rhetoric, they will likely tone down theirs. Provoking them will not solve the problem. And as the priveledged members of a GLOBAL society, it is in everyone's best interest to gain the confidence of the Islamic world, even if it means overlooking its current faults.
So freedom of speech my ass. Lets work towards a greater and real goal instead of furhter inflaming the situation just to maintain an eye-for-an-eye approach. I have a greater responsibility than that. I think you all should too.
It's not eye for an eye. It is simply accurate identification.
If you think keeping silent will defeat extreme fundamentalist attitudes and actions, then you are sorely mistaken.
Extremists don't care if the other side fights back or not. They have their agenda and they will stick to it.
Your 'greater responsiblity' is phony. It will just lead to a situation of great misery further down the line where people will say "How stupid were those people years ago who did not even comment on such obvious evils?"
Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's not eye for an eye. It is simply accurate identification.If you think keeping silent will defeat extreme fundamentalist attitudes and actions, then you are sorely mistaken.
Extremists don't care if the other side fights back or not. They have their agenda and they will stick to it.
Your 'greater responsiblity' is phony. It will just lead to a situation of great misery further down the line where people will say "How stupid were those people years ago who did not even comment on such obvious evils?"
I've stated repeated that we should simply not sit quiet. The only way this is going to end is to be proactive about bridging gaps. I've stated, referencing this incident in particular, that the Pope should meet with Islmaic leaders to fix this damn issue now. Though that quote had no significance in his speech and he did a poor job of writing it, Benedict XVI should have reached out from day one instead of waiting 3 days to realize what he'd done.
He is starting to enact my plan, meeting with his ambassadors to Muslim countries on Monday. He also MUST go to Turkey in November and meet with the heads of Church there.
Lets take a page from CHristian philosophy and treat everyone as our brothers...with infinite forgiveness and patience. Instead of acting like two-year-olds and pointing gout all your brothers faults, why don't you help to fix them? Flaming them won't solve the problem. If this had happened 6 years ago, I'm willing to bet this sort of reaction would NOT have been observed.
This is more then just a comment, this is a global foreign policy issue.