Originally posted by fini
you know this whole Age argument makes no sense.Girls in many many countries( if not ALL) got married before or close to the onset of puberty for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Its only now we turn our nose up at it, but back then it was the norm........... for islamic, christian, hindu, aboriginal, african, american indian cultures. Child marriage is still popular in rural india and nepal where girls get married as early as 5.
This is how things were back then, so to site Mohammed as some kinda pedeophile is unfair, especially when everyone else ( girls that is) got married between the ages of 8-13.
In some african tribes, girls as young as 9-12 have sex and then are put through gential mutilation, to keep them 'secure' until marriage.
For in the day and age of human rights and the rights of the child, these things still go on........... so why oh why complain about things that happened hundreds of years ago, that was normal then??
So what? We are talking about a prophet of God here - a man to be imitatated.
Furthermore, it is not the age at which Aisha married but the differeance between the. If you don't see anything wrong with 54 year old man having sex with a 9 year old, then should I assume that you condone any kind of pedophilic behaiour, even today?
Pedophilia does not have any known etiology or common socio-economic background.
That means that there was never any pattern to pedophilia, which means it was never frequently practiced.
Girls were married at nine, sure, to 16 year olds, 18 year olds and 20 year olds, but not to a 54 year olds. It is sick. It was sick then just as it is sick today, and as already mentioned, it was frowned upon in Arabia.
And if you read the Hadiths, you will of course find the shock Abu Bakr seen after being proposed the marriage by Muhammad.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
So what? We are talking about a prophet of God here - a man to be imitatated.Furthermore, it is not the age at which Aisha married but the differeance between the. If you don't see anything wrong with 54 year old man having sex with a 9 year old, then should I assume that you condone any kind of pedophilic behaiour, even today?
Pedophilia does not have any known etiology or common socio-economic background.
That means that there were never any frequent practices of pedophilia.Girls were married at nine, sure, to 16 year olds, 18 year olds and 20 year olds, but not to a 54 year olds. It is sick. It was sick then just as it was sick today, and as already mentioned, it was frowned upon in Arabia.
So....what?
It's the prophet, if he feels like it is alright to marry a 9 year old...whatever. Just because you find it sick as do many others, doesn't make it bad.
Ummm, no offence Lil, but your bitterness towards this topic is clearly showing your bias.
Important men were offered the daughters( most times to marry) of other less prominent men in many many cultures. Politics was much, much, more important than the rights of a child then, wait in fact it kinda still is. While we do not agree with it, it was still done
MIND YOU, although I understand that it was done widely, that does not mean that I condone it.
Originally posted by fini
Ummm, no offence Lil, but your bitterness towards this topic is clearly showing your bias.Important men were offered the daughters( most times to marry) of other less prominent men in many many cultures. Politics was much, much, more important than the rights of a child then, wait in fact it kinda still is. While we do not agree with it, it was still done
MIND YOU, although I understand that it was done widely, that does not mean that I condone it.
Ok, so do you think what prophet did was alright?
There is no bitterness, i promise you, there is only truth, which for people who will shit their pants defending Islam is something not worth paying attention to. (not you personally at all, im talking about people in general, particulary islamic appologetics too scared to offend the muslims)
Why don't you look up the sexual consent age for a girl in Islamic country today? Take a wild guess what it is? its 9! I wonder why that is?
I don't buy this political correct bullshit, and this ''you are bitter so you are bias'' also does not work on me either. I have done enough research to be absolutely disturbed at how many times aisha's sad story was repeated, and is being repeated even today.
Prophet of God (although just for hypothetical re
asnons seeing as my personal belief is that God would never send one down anyway, if he/she indeed exists) is supposed to be an example - for all times.
It disturbs me fini, no offence, even further that you do not condem this act as child abuse and are fine to accept it as someting normal.
Shari'a law will agree with you.
By the way, according to Muhammad, the reason he married to Aisha was because Angel told him to do so, and Allah said that it MUST happen.
Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.
Originally posted by PVS
i think the point is that their reality was different and thus their sense of "the line" was as well.just so we're clear though, did he actually have sex with a 9 ye old or just marry her?
Originally posted by Sam Z
He just marry her. Nothing suggests that he had.
Sam, tell that to people who have no knowledge of islam.
PVS -
He married her when she was 6 years old and had sex with her when she was 9.
This has been written numerous times in the Hadiths. -
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Aisha's father upon hearing his daughter is about to be married off to Muhammad -
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."
Abu Bakr and Muhammad had pledged to each other to be brothers. So according to old Arabic costoms Aisha was supposed to be like a niece to the Muhammad, thus forbidden to marry.
Originally posted by PVS
i guess i'm left guessing. i saw the scripture referring to it, but is universally accepted as genuine scripture or is it disputed?
It is not disputed, and it is in Sharia law around the Islamic states. Girls consent age for sex is 9, you can check it out.
Muhammad is al-insan al-kamil which is an arabic expression for a 'perfect man' a man to be imitated, thus everything he had done, is by default alright to do.
Furthermore, this is a Hadith in which Aisha explains being taken away with the prophet.
She was playing with her friends at the swing - she was a child.
Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
And another text from a MUSLIM Scholar.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.
(The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sorry Lil, we've been through this many times and it's not the first time you give this quotes. And not now, neither before there's mantioned anything about prophet having sex with 9 years old Aisha. Only about their marriege that was important at the time. And it was never a secret to anyone.
Everything else is just your assumptions, because you clearly have issues...