how do you feel about islam?

Started by Alfheim31 pages

Originally posted by Bardock42
So....what?

It's the prophet, if he feels like it is alright to marry a 9 year old...whatever. Just because you find it sick as do many others, doesn't make it bad.

Marrying a nine year old and having sex with her isnt bad, but you have a problem with religon in general(but I think you changed your mind on this)?

Originally posted by fini
Ummm, no offence Lil, but your bitterness towards this topic is clearly showing your bias.

Important men were offered the daughters( most times to marry) of other less prominent men in many many cultures. Politics was much, much, more important than the rights of a child then, wait in fact it kinda still is. While we do not agree with it, it was still done

MIND YOU, although I understand that it was done widely, that does not mean that I condone it.

So let me see if I can get this straight. Politics should come before the rights of a child and you dont agree with it but lil is biased?

Originally posted by Sam Z
Sorry Lil, we've been through this many times and it's not the first time you give this quotes. And not now, neither before there's mantioned anything about prophet having sex with 9 years old Aisha. Only about their marriege that was important at the time. And it was never a secret to anyone.
Everything else is just your assumptions, because you clearly have issues...

Oh dont you start your a completes waste of time. You ask for evidence. You are given evidence and you make up some lame ass excuse.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh dont you start your a completes waste of time. You ask for evidence. You are given evidence and you make up some lame ass excuse.

Yeah, yeah whatever. yawn As if you ever listened to anything that is not anti-islamic.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Yeah, yeah whatever. yawn As if you ever listened to anything that is not anti-islamic.

Well you tell me..what part of.....you need the hadiths to explain the Quran...dont you understand?

Its written in balck and white that he married a nine year old and had sex with her...and your like...uh....duuuhhh "Got anything bad about islam?" 🙄

Sam Z, as Alfheim will tell you himself, the harshest, most vicious critics of Islam are ex-muslims.
Not kafirs, but ex-muslims.

Dr. Ali Sina,
Wafa Sultan,
Ibn Warraq,
Ayaan Hirsi Ali (she is amazing - she imigrated from Somalia as far as i recall and made a movie 'Submission' about Islam with Theo Van Gogh, which cost Theo his life),
Walid Shoebet (former Palestinian trained terrorist - turned pro Israel and left Islam)
Zak Gariba - Former Muslim Imam
Mark Gabriel - Former muslim imam, Al-azhar Islamic university professor
Jeremiah Fard Muhammad - Former Muslim minister
Parvin Darabi
Taslima Nasrin
Ampbreia
Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner - Turkish Ex-Muslim(Dean of Liberty Theological Seminary in Lynchburg, Va)
Reverend Donald Fareed - Iranian Ex-Muslim, Persian Ministries
Dr. Abraham Sarker

etc etc etc...

These people did not tell me how to think, but told me to reasearch - which I did, as did Alfheim.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well you tell me..what part of.....you need the hadiths to explain the Quran...dont you understand?

Its written in balck and white that he married a nine year old and had sex with her...and your like...uh....duuuhhh "Got anything bad about islam?" 🙄


It's written that he consummated marriege when she was 9. Even in english it can be interpreted in many ways. Translated from arabic, posted by some internet site and reposted by Lil B. Yeah, some source you got there. In other hadiths it's written that he actually married her when she was 9.
By the way, about not listening to reasons. Whenever somebody quotes Qur'an you only see what you wanna see and whenver somebody give you correct interpritation you keep ignoring it. LOL You even said once that you used to be muslim 🙄
As I said - whatever. You don't want to waste time, neither do I. So why do you keep responding on my posts? I wasn't even talking to you.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Sam Z, as Alfheim will tell you himself, the harshest, most vicious critics of Islam are ex-muslims.
Not kafirs, but ex-muslims.

Dr. Ali Sina,
Wafa Sultan,
Ibn Warraq,
Ayaan Hirsi Ali (she is amazing - she imigrated from Somalia as far as i recall and made a movie 'Submission' about Islam with Theo Van Gogh, which cost Theo his life),
Walid Shoebet (former Palestinian trained terrorist - turned pro Israel and left Islam)
Zak Gariba - Former Muslim Imam
Mark Gabriel - Former muslim imam, Al-azhar Islamic university professor
Jeremiah Fard Muhammad - Former Muslim minister
Parvin Darabi
Taslima Nasrin
Ampbreia
Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner - Turkish Ex-Muslim(Dean of Liberty Theological Seminary in Lynchburg, Va)
Reverend Donald Fareed - Iranian Ex-Muslim, Persian Ministries
Dr. Abraham Sarker

etc etc etc...

These people did not tell me how to think, but told me to reasearch - which I did, as did Alfheim.


Which is a typical thing for people that changed their religion beliefes. Every religion has simillar ex-followers. But if you want to know religion you should listen to those who follow it, because they know better if it is violant or if it accepts having sex with children or killing anyone for no reason.
Anyway I don't want to argue you Lil B. You can't tell me about Islam anything I don't know and I can't convince you in anything, especially with my poor knowledge of english.
Good day.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Which is a typical thing for people that changed their religion beliefes. Every religion has simillar ex-followers. But if you want to know religion you should listen to those who follow it, because they know better if it is violant or if it accepts having sex with children or killing anyone for no reason.
Anyway I don't want to argue you Lil B. You can't tell me about Islam anything I don't know and I can't convince you in anything, especially with my poor knowledge of english.
Good day.

I am not going to ask people who follow Islam to tell me about it. I am going to read it and research it by myself.

I don't need anyone telling me what to think. I will look at the evidence and make up my own mind.

But I met people like you before. Each one knows more about Islam than anyone else.
Ibn Warraq has a PhD in Islamic studeis, and Zak Gariba was an imam. I think they have far more knowledge to talk about Islam than you do.

The only reason you deny Muhammad sleeping with a 9 year old girl is because Islam came in contact with other cultures which dondemned such acts.
Historically this marriage was proudly presented throughout the ages, as Aisha was his favourite wife.

It seems that your reasearch is mostly about listening to opinions of those who stopped following Islam and listening to "evidence" of those who hate and criticise it. You say you met people like me, but you know nothing about me, may be that's the reason. You met people "muslims" that gave you trouble, and that was the turning point of your attitude for religion itself. And there are thousands people whose knowledge of islam is better than Zak Gariba. But for some reason you choose to rely on him, because it matches your own views.
And I never argued that Aisha was his wife.

Bro I have heard lots of opinions pro and against, thank you very much. I used to have loads of book....hell I even had the phone number of one scholar who I used to ring up. You cant tell me im biased.

Even if there is difference of opinion about him having sex with Aisha there so much other stuff I could bring up.

Furthermore when people get married they have sex, so its most liley that he did.

Yes, in our time it is true. But then again. Marrieage now and marrieage then are two different things.
You can bring a lot of stuff, i can counter it, then you'll bring even more. That's a typical problem when debating religions, there's always more than one or two opinions and it works for any religion.
Anyway, I can only say one thing for sure. I follow islam, but it doesn't make me want to kill christians, rape children or blow up schools. It makes me wanna believe, hope etc etc. And there are over billion others like me. And IMO that better than anything speaks about religion in general.

Sam Z, I believe you are not a war mongler and want to kill Christians and Jews. in fact i know there are a lot of people like yourself. I am not discussing Muslims, I am discussing Muhammad.

Muhammad sleeping with 9 year old has never been a Contraversy. It is demonstrated in numerous hadiths. There is no controversy in that. There has never been until now that some of the Muslims have come in contact with western values and are ashamed to admit that their Prophet could commit such an indecency.

They deny the facts and have made it a controversy. The majority of Muslims still have no problem with the young age of the Aisha and they ridicule these Modern day “moral relativists” who are twisting the truth to please the morality of the westerners.

Some Muslims deny it and this is the subject of a controversy not agreed by all the Muslims. Contraversy. Hmmm..

Intelligent people are not affected by controversies. They look at the facts and are not swayed by hearsays.
Feeble-minded people become confused and do not know which way to turn.

Only a few years ago Sheikh Baaz in Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa that any one who said the Earth is round is Kafir.
Obviously this did not go very far but he started a controversy.

So what is your opinion about the shape of the Earth? Would you stay out of it because it is a controversial issue?

Obviously we all cringe when we think of pedophilia and acknowledge that it is a shameful act of immorality.

The question is, if sleeping with a nine year old child was not deemed bad and therefore was not considered immoral, was it ok?

Not everything that a society accepts as moral is right. Having sex with a minor may not have been immoral for Arabs 1400 years ago, but it is now, as it was then, unethical.
Moralities are defined by circumstances, but ethics transcend time and space. They are rooted in logic.

IF Muhammad was a messenger of God or even an honorable man, as he made his Allah to proclaim him thus, he should have known that what he was doing was dishonorable and unethical.

And it is rue that very occasionally wealthy old men married very young girls. We release they acted on what they knew at the time.
We do not condemn people for they did not know better.
What they did was the norm. But we do condemn those cultures.

However, we cannot forgive with the same amnesty those who claimed to be the standard of rectitude amongst mankind, ie muhammad.

If average people could not distinguish the right from the wrong, the messengers of God, if they were from God, should have known better. Do you not agree?

If their claim was true, if their knowledge was divine, if they were inspired, they should not have followed the tradition of their people but should have set the example.

Muhammad followed the morality of his people and that morality was ethically wrong.
He claimed to be the best human and the last messenger of God. According to him God has said to people all he wanted to say in the Quran and his religion is complete.

There is no more guidance to come and his examples and teachings are all we need to know and follow for eternity. Yet what he did and said, under the light of modern values prove to be very wrong.

Thanks to Dr Ali Sina.

Nothing wrong with marrying a Mature girl legally ,but when the Priests of the Churches sexually a bused children you keep silent ..

Originally posted by Fatima
Nothing wrong with marrying a Mature girl legally ,but when the Priests of the Churches sexually a bused children you keep silent ..

That is not true. It was all over the news.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Marrying a nine year old and having sex with her isnt bad, but you have a problem with religon in general(but I think you changed your mind on this)?

Well, it might not have been bad for her. Can't really judge it generally I'd say. I'd probably say you should wait longer than 9, but if the girl wants it...oh well. I just don't see lil bitchiness point. What is she trying to say.

And I still think we would be better of without religion (and spirituality).

Originally posted by Fatima
Nothing wrong with marrying a Mature girl legally ,but when the Priests of the Churches sexually a bused children you keep silent ..

Silent? Is that why you know that some children were abused?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Marrying a nine year old and having sex with her isnt bad, but you have a problem with religon in general(but I think you changed your mind on this)?

Well god never explicitly said "don't have sex with nine-year olds" so what's stopping Christians?

Originally posted by Fatima
Nothing wrong with marrying a Mature girl legally ,but when the Priests of the Churches sexually a bused children you keep silent ..

Aisha was not mature. She has said that hersel numerous times. She was playing with dolls when prophet married her. She was a child. She was also only one allowed to play with dolls in prophets time because she did not yet hit the puberty - it is said in the hadiths and by many muslim historians and scholars themselves.

We are not here to please western morality, Fatima, we're here to discuss the ethical and moral implications of what prophet did.

The question then arises, if this is today, by many (not only western) standards unethical, then why did the prophet do it, if his message was LAST, and any other prophet to come after him is false.

How can you claim that someone who is here to give a last message to humanity could not see the blatant lack of ethics in what he was doing?

Did you read my previous post ...

Some narrations say that Aisha was nine when the Prophet consummated the marriage with her. That was when she reached the age of puberty. For that reason she used to say: "when a girl reaches nine years she becomes a women " [ Ahmed and Al-Termidhi]. Imam Al-Shafi said: "I saw a grandmother who was only twenty one years old. " This means that she and her daughter as well became pregnant before the age of ten years!

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, it might not have been bad for her. Can't really judge it generally I'd say. I'd probably say you should wait longer than 9, but if the girl wants it...oh well. I just don't see lil bitchiness point. What is she trying to say.

What part of a nine year old isnt phsyically or mentally mature dont you understand? Why on earth would you want to marry off a nine year old?

If you are refering to fini she seems to be saying it happens therefore its ok.

Originally posted by Bardock42

And I still think we would be better of without religion (and spirituality).

Well then you will have no problem with Priets molesting childern they do it on a regular basis and The Chruch covers it up. I saw a documentary on it, the childern seemed pretty pissed off to me.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well god never explicitly said "don't have sex with nine-year olds" so what's stopping Christians?

I dont know, but is this supposed to be funny..or something because I dont get your point.

Ive entered a mad house....

Wow..you are a slow one, aren't you?

Originally posted by Alfheim
What part of a nine year old isnt phsyically or mentally mature dont you understand? Why on earth would you want to marry off a nine year old?

Well, for one the lack of truth. A 9 year old might very well be ready mentally to have sex and that 9 year old might very well have led a good life afterwards. Your moral code is just not set in stone. She might very well be ready at 9

Originally posted by Alfheim
If you are refering to fini she seems to be saying it happens therefore its ok.

"I just don't see lil bitchiness point. What is she trying to say."

I guess that wasn't clear enough, my bad...I was referring to lil bitchiness.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well then you will have no problem with Priets molesting childern they do it on a regular basis and The Chruch covers it up. I saw a documentary on it, the childern seemed pretty pissed off to me.

What? How do you conclude from me thinking that the world would be better off without Religion that I am fine with Priests molesting children? That is most certainly not what I said.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Well, for one the lack of truth. A 9 year old might very well be ready mentally to have sex and that 9 year old might very well have led a good life afterwards. Your moral code is just not set in stone. She might very well be ready at 9

How and why? How would a nine year old be sexually awara unless you told them about it?

Furthermore you could use a date rape drug on somebody and they might go and live a happy life aftewards as well.

Originally posted by Bardock42

What? How do you conclude from me thinking that the world would be better off without Religion that I am fine with Priests molesting children? That is most certainly not what I said.

I was just being sarcastic.