Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
How can you know this? How can you know there are not several possible futures?Just because God knows what you will do doesn't mean you can only do one thing.
If you read a book, then read it again, is it different the second time? Do the characters in the book have free will? If god knows the future, then we are like the characters in a book. From god's point of view, there is no free will, but sense we do not know the future, we have the illusion of free will. The only way to fix this paradox is to say the God is not omniscient.
Originally posted by Shin_NikkolasDoesn't make a difference if there are 5 million other choices, if God knows the future he already knows the one you will choose.
How can you know this? How can you know there are not several possible futures?Just because God knows what you will do doesn't mean you can only do one thing.
If you read a book, then read it again, is it different the second time? Do the characters in the book have free will?
An author of a book writes things to begin and end in a way. The characters have no choice in the matter. We as humans can choose whether we go to Church or don't.
Unless you are saying God is controlling us to do either?
If god knows the future, then we are like the characters in a book. From god's point of view, there is no free will, but sense we do not know the future, we have the illusion of free will. The only way to fix this paradox is to say the God is not omniscient.
I still don't see how this works. God knowing what you'll do doesn't MAKE you do it.
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
An author of a book writes things to begin and end in a way. The characters have no choice in the matter. We as humans can choose whether we go to Church or don't.Unless you are saying God is controlling us to do either?
I'm saying that the bible is wrong when it comes to the true nature of God.
Originally posted by Shin_NikkolasFree will only applies to man because he is not all knowing and can’t see the future but to God you do not have free will because he would already know what you will do and the judgment that will be passed onto you therefore your fate has already been decided in the eyes of God. Now if you think that God is the creator of everything down to the smallest atom and made the rules for how everything works then you can say that yes he did make you decided those decisions.
I still don't see how this works. God knowing what you'll do doesn't MAKE you do it.
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
An author of a book writes things to begin and end in a way. The characters have no choice in the matter. We as humans can choose whether we go to Church or don't.Unless you are saying God is controlling us to do either?
I still don't see how this works. God knowing what you'll do doesn't MAKE you do it.
If God knows the future, then there could be no possible outcomes. If God knows what is going to happen, then only that will happen. How can any other outcome possibly happen, if God knows which outcome will exist ?
If God knows the future, then there is ONLY ONE FUTURE, and therefore, we don't have other options. The future will only occur one way, and therefore, we don't truly have say in how our lives go.
Otherwise, if God is wrong about the future, then he is not omniscient.
Do you understand ?
The Bible as far I know states that God also made the universe... with that he would have to make the rules of the universe, this includes the creation of "free will" but to invent something called "choice" he would have to make the choices to choose from... and by each of our personalities we will choose one choice over the other based on what we think will be the more positive outcome for us... based on this God would also have to create our personalities and the percentages attached to those personalities... although you will "choose" things you wouldn't normally choose you will generally select the most self satisfying choice... sometimes you learn that it is not the most self satisfying selection... but everyone cannot "choose" the right thing or we would never learn hardship.
Now if God made the choices and the percentile chance for us to choose one over the other than it is logical to say he does not exist... because he is essentially making us choose over Himself or the Devil... via sinfulness and purity, so he has created the "choice" himself that many of us will end up going to the place called Hell, and only a few will go to Heaven because how many people will think of God on their death bed? many, but how many are able to atone for all of their sins there? few, also He gave us the choice not to believe in him... for a being so desperate to love us and for us to love him he did a great job in making it impossible for many, He made our personalities and thus doomed us to Hell or Heaven.
The other logical explanation... one fixed future, but then He is more cruel for ultimately dooming many of us to Hell or Heaven, because of this the most logical path is that he does not exist... or that we are simply pawns in a game of chess thats being played against another person following exact directions to the checkmate... meaningless
shin, your argument would hold true if god was a SILENT SPECTATER to the universe and merely knew everything that came to pass. in which case man STILL wudnt have free will but shud put responsibility on the being that CREATED the universe for everything that happens.
but god ISNT a silent spectater{and this is disreguarding any miraculous upsets he wud have made in the universe AFTER its creation} but he CREATED the universe. if i create sumthing with FULL KNOWLEDGE of what it implies and is going to do in the future without possibility of fail, then i am COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY responsible for it and whatever it does . this is the same as god, he knew everything and created the world knowing exactly how his creating sumthing wud wrk out. but he still gave us a SENSE OF FREE WILL, which is about the cruelest thing any1 can do, seeing as we can not even TRY and change what he knows will come to pass, as our entire existance will work towards that chain of events, and yet we FALSELY keep believing that we are responsible for it and he{the real resonsible one for the events} will punish and judge us for them.
that isnt a very nice god is it.
Sounds fair to me.
You screw up, God knows it.
You do good, God knows it.
It's still you. God doesn't make you a serial killer or a Saint. You are making yourself those things.
And upon your death, God judges you accordingly by YOUR actions that YOU decided.
Show me how God is manipulating your life or free will. Show me how he is imparing your decisions.
in answer to your question:
by the very fact of putting us together and putting us in situations in which we CAN NOT, act anyway other than one, he controls us. his responsibility not our as the world is his creation and he made it knowing full well what would happen later and we cant change it. hence there is no choice and no free will and we are not responsible.
in answer to your question:by the very fact of putting us together and putting us in situations in which we CAN NOT, act anyway other than one, he controls us. his responsibility not our as the world is his creation and he made it knowing full well what would happen later and we cant change it. hence there is no choice and no free will and we are not responsible.
Prove to me there is only one possible outcome to anyone's life.
I can CHOOSE whether I am with God or against God. God doesn't make me for or against Him. I choose it.
So, it's free will.
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Prove to me there is only one possible outcome to anyone's life.I can CHOOSE whether I am with God or against God. God doesn't make me for or against Him. I choose it.
So, it's free will.
wrong. if god KNOWS 100%{omniscience} what is going to happen then i CANT choose. as by the very definition i would have to have the ABILITY to pick whichever fate i liked to have free will, but there is no such ability if there is only one possible fate{and that is what god's omniscience implies}.
as for god being responsible or not, i have thought of two situation.{disreguarding the argument of omniscient being creating a universe and hence being responsible for its unhampered functioning beginning to end}
in the first one, god simply KNOWS a "phenomenon" called the "futue" with perfect accuracy. in this one he merely KNOWS the future but didnt create it. still the future would have to EXIST as a consistant unchaging construct for him to know about it with "certainty". and hence man still has no free will albeit it is blamed on the fact that a FUTURE phenomenon exists which is outside god's bounds and/or his creation/will{which wud make him responsible}.
in the other one, god has MADE a future phenomenon and like all things it is one of his creation under him. he knows it 100% and man still has no free will. and god is responsible for it.
either way with omniscience, we dont have free will and god is almost definately responsible for the world.
wrong. if god KNOWS 100%{omniscience} what is going to happen then i CANT choose. as by the very definition i would have to have the ABILITY to pick whichever fate i liked to have free will, but there is no such ability if there is only one possible fate{and that is what god's omniscience implies}.
Omniscience has nothing to do with only one possible future. To knoW all means you would know exactly what would happen if a person chose this or that. God would know what would happen to me if I decided right now to go out and become a serial killer. He would also know what would happen to me if I continue to sit hear and believe in Him and practice non-violence.
I don't see how God knowing everything means there is only one outcome to everything.
either way with omniscience, we dont have free will and god is almost definately responsible for the world.
Again, not seeing it. Free will - YOU decide what YOU do. THat's it That's free will. How does God knowing what YOU decide limit your free will? it's YOU making the decision. All you.
This is going around in a very repitive circle.
uve got it ALLLLLLLLL wrong. omniscience does not mean knowing possible implication for POSSIBLE choices. it means knowing about WHICH youd choose to begin with!!!!!!!!!!
and THEN knowing all implications of that choice. its knowledge of what WILL happen, not what WOULD happen if so n so conditions were met. so god knows exactly which choices youd make AND their implication. and THAT DESTROYES FREE WILL.
e.g. he knows IF you will become a serial killer or not. meaning he KNOWS WHAT YOU WILL POSITIVELY CHOOSE. implications of choices are a secondary.
omniscience infact makes it impossible for any future to exist other than the one you KNOW 100%, WILL COME TO PASS. in other words you know the future. the one and only future. please read up on it cause this is getting circular.
again ur wrong, if god KNOWS the choices we have made BEFORE we have made them then it isnt a choice but a 100% decided outcome. and it SHALL come to pass n no1 can do athing to change it.
uve got it ALLLLLLLLL wrong. omniscience does not mean knowing possible implication for POSSIBLE choices. it means knowing about WHICH youd choose to begin with!!!!!!!!!!
Where do you get that definition from?
American Heritage Dictionary (ŏm-nĭsh'ənt)
adj.Having total knowledge; knowing everything.
Also my New Merriam-Webster Dictionary says:
infinite awareness, understanding and insight.
So...it seems to be you know ALL including ALL possibilities of the future.
Now back up your definition.
and THEN knowing all implications of that choice. its knowledge of what WILL happen, not what WOULD happen if so n so conditions were met. so god knows exactly which choices youd make AND their implication. and THAT DESTROYES FREE WILL.
God would know what would happen if you chose A or B. He know ALL.
And AGAIN
God. Does. Nothing.
You. Make. The. Choice.
You.
Your will, your mind, your fate.
God simply knows what will happen if you choose that. But he also knows what will happen if you choose something else. See defintions of omniscience.
e.g. he knows IF you will become a serial killer or not. meaning he KNOWS WHAT YOU WILL POSITIVELY CHOOSE. implications of choices are a secondary.
EXACTLY.
He KNOWS what I will choose but he's not making me do it. He knows I could equally decide to do a million other things. He is not influencing me. I am deciding myself what I will do. Thus, free will.
omniscience infact makes it impossible for any future to exist other than the one you KNOW 100%, WILL COME TO PASS. in other words you know the future. the one and only future. please read up on it cause this is getting circular.
Again, prove up. Where are you getting this definition of omniscience from?
INFINITE awareness, knowledge and insight.
You are contradicting a direct definition by saying it has limits to one future only.
again ur wrong, if god KNOWS the choices we have made BEFORE we have made them then it isnt a choice but a 100% decided outcome. and it SHALL come to pass n no1 can do athing to change it.
Alright, here's something.
Say we're playing Checkers.
I KNOW if you move your piece to a certain square, I can jump you.
But I don't tell you.
You go ahead and move your piece there and I jump you.
Did you not just make the choice yourself?
I knew what would happen but I didn't effect you. It was your decision.