Free Will and Religion

Originally posted by julibug
If I believed the bible to be absolute truth, and were able to get past the many obvious contradictions, I would still find it to be teaching that man does not have free will. In fact the words "free will" aren't in the bible anywhere. There's plenty in there about "God's will", though. The confusing part is that it teaches that it's God's will for everyone to be saved...in many places even says that all were saved by Jesus in opposition to all being "unsaved" by Adam...yet Christianity teaches that most people won't be saved (meaning will burn in eternal damnation forever). All I really know is that my daily experience sure feels like free will. Whether it's an illusion or not, I don't know. If there's any truth to the bible at all, I tend to lean toward there being a God that has/had an over-all plan, and that either this God just put things in motion and stepped back to let the experiment unfold, or this God is still the one in control, and we just have a little free will within the confines of natural law, etc., or we really don't have the free will that we think we have, but we get to think we have it. It's getting really late where I am, so I'm sorry if this is starting to make no sense at all. LOL! But for those of you who do believe in the bible, do me a favor and check out martin zender's website: http://martinzender.com/ I've gotten away from most of this stuff nowadays, but there was a time awhile back when I was reading up on all of it.

I realize I'm quoting myself, but I wanted to clarify that I don't believe the bible to be absolute truth, but I'm pretty sure that most christians do, so the above post was directed at anyone who is of that belief. The bible is usually what they would use to debate anything about God or free will, and outside of that it's really just philosophy and opinion - even to the bible-believing christian. Not sure if that really applies to anyone here, though, so sorry if this was pointless. 😛

Originally posted by julibug
I realize I'm quoting myself, but I wanted to clarify that I don't believe the bible to be absolute truth, but I'm pretty sure that most christians do

That's a thought process that many Christians (such as all the ones I know personally) feel that people don't actually care to learn what Christianity is about and instead form opinions based on the people who make interesting news stories.

It's too bad that so many christians only parrot what their denomination and pastors tell them instead of studying things out for themselves.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Free will is a fanciful concept in my mind because even if the idea could possibly exist there are situations where the circumstances only allow one choice.

Mind naming one example of this?

There is either free will or not, as mentioned in the bible. What is it? Yes or No?

Please list verses for pros and cons.

Originally posted by chithappens
Mind naming one example of this?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's a thought process that many Christians (such as all the ones I know personally) feel that people don't actually care to learn what Christianity is about and instead form opinions based on the people who make interesting news stories.

I grew up in a very dogmatic christian home, and believed it all for most of my life. In the past few years, I started asking alot of questions and really thinking about it all, and basically reasoned my way out of most of it. Anyway, I definately have first hand knowledge about what christianity teaches. The problem is that I do live in the bible belt, and I know that christians outside of this area may believe somewhat differently, but I have a feeling that at the core most of the beliefs are similar - one of the main ones being that the bible is absolute truth. That was why I made the comments - if anyone here believes that, I can relate, because I used to believe it too, but now I don't. 😉

Originally posted by debbiejo
It's too bad that so many christians only parrot what their denomination and pastors tell them instead of studying things out for themselves.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Trying to stop breathing. Eventually your body will make you breathe again. Biology overrides any other options. It gets very complicated when you think how many decisions you make every minute of your life.

Good point - but this could still mean that we have free will within the confines of natural law - "limited free will".

Originally posted by julibug
Good point - but this could still mean that we have free will within the confines of natural law - "limited free will".

Limited free will would not be free will, or would it?

Originally posted by debbiejo
There is either free will or not, as mentioned in the bible. What is it? Yes or No?

Please list verses for pros and cons.

I can do this...have done it many times...but only if anyone else wants to. I'm not that interested in rehashing all the bible stuff unless there's someone here who cares about it - basis their beliefs on it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Limited free will would not be free will, or would it?

I don't know, but I think it's as good as we could hope for - at least while in the physical reality that we live in now.

Originally posted by julibug
I don't know, but I think it's as good as we could hope for - at least while in the physical reality that we live in now.

Perhaps the bible is fallible after all. 😉 What I mean is life is more complicated then free will or not.

Originally posted by julibug
Good point - but this could still mean that we have free will within the confines of natural law - "limited free will".

I always wonder what people mean when they use the term free will, because it's literally impossible to have.

The freedom to choose. Ok, fine. But because of the circumstances preceding any action, event, or choice, there's only going to be 1 outcome, and it's the same outcome every time.

Imagine choosing vanilla over chocolate ice cream. Then rewind the scenario to a minute before the choice....do this for 100 iterations. You'll choose vanilla every time, no exceptions, because the same forces that led to a choice of "vanilla" are exactly the same every time. The supposed "choice" is illusory. And if you had prior knowledge of the previous iterations, the system in which the choice is made has been changed, but that's not what we're talking about. We're dealing with teh same conditions.

A hard-line Christian would argue that it will be vanilla some of the time and chocolate some of the time. Why? God. But that's not really free, is it? Some random force is influencing our decision (God, in this case) and it isn't the intrinsic causal forces within us making the decision...which should be vanilla unless there is outside tampering of some sort.

Christian free will is anything but. The only way we're "free" is by making choices solely based on that which is within us, even though there will always be a determined set of occurences that could not have happened any other way.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

A hard-line Christian would argue that it will be vanilla some of the time and chocolate some of the time. Why? God. But that's not really free, is it? Some random force is influencing our decision (God, in this case) and it isn't the intrinsic causal forces within us making the decision...which should be vanilla unless there is outside tampering of some sort.

So, "God" influences our decisions...

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Christian free will is anything but. The only way we're "free" is by making choices solely based on that which is within us, even though there will always be a determined set of occurences that could not have happened any other way.

So, do you believe that God sets up these occurences to influence our choices? If so, does our choice really mean anything (in the christian concept of salvation)? This, of course, contradicts the "make a decision for christ" that is the big thing in the church. Amazingly enough, I know people who do believe this, and still hold on to the bible as infallible?!?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I always wonder what people mean when they use the term free will, because it's literally impossible to have.

The freedom to choose. Ok, fine. But because of the circumstances preceding any action, event, or choice, there's only going to be 1 outcome, and it's the same outcome every time.

Imagine choosing vanilla over chocolate ice cream. Then rewind the scenario to a minute before the choice....do this for 100 iterations. You'll choose vanilla every time, no exceptions, because the same forces that led to a choice of "vanilla" are exactly the same every time. The supposed "choice" is illusory. And if you had prior knowledge of the previous iterations, the system in which the choice is made has been changed, but that's not what we're talking about. We're dealing with teh same conditions.

A hard-line Christian would argue that it will be vanilla some of the time and chocolate some of the time. Why? God. But that's not really free, is it? Some random force is influencing our decision (God, in this case) and it isn't the intrinsic causal forces within us making the decision...which should be vanilla unless there is outside tampering of some sort.

Christian free will is anything but. The only way we're "free" is by making choices solely based on that which is within us, even though there will always be a determined set of occurences that could not have happened any other way.

if and when that force becomes your conciounce/consiousness and personal desire outside the raw output coming from the outside world{unevaluated/unquestioned output which uve chosent to accept/deny or have a decision about}. well i suppose IF and WHEN it happens.

Originally posted by julibug
So, do you believe that God sets up these occurences to influence our choices? If so, does our choice really mean anything (in the christian concept of salvation)? This, of course, contradicts the "make a decision for christ" that is the big thing in the church. Amazingly enough, I know people who do believe this, and still hold on to the bible as infallible?!?

Everything I talk about is well outside the Christian concept of salvation, because I find their mythology laced with logical errors and moral flaws.

So no, God isn't anywhere in the equation I was talking about. If he was, there wouldn't be such a thing as free will...the only way we can actually be "free" is in a determinist system where there is only 1 possible outcome for each event or decision.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
if and when that force becomes your conciounce/consiousness and personal desire outside the raw output coming from the outside world{unevaluated/unquestioned output which uve chosent to accept/deny or have a decision about}. well i suppose IF and WHEN it happens.

I don't think I understand any of this. It sounds like a bunch of garbled nonsense. But if I can attempt to glean some information from it, it sounds to me like you're making a distinction between causal forces outside a person and inside a person. I made no such distinction...in the "system" I spoke of in which a decision is made, intrinsic and extrinsic forces are all taken together into the equation. To do anything more is to confuse determinism by seperating it into different forces like physical/emotional/etc.

Originally posted by Nellinator
So what you are questioning is whether fate exists, more so than you are questioning free will. I believe in fact and free agency, but not free will. Free will is a fanciful concept in my mind because even if the idea could possibly exist there are situations where the circumstances only allow one choice.

I think that's pretty logical.

Free Will, in my opinion, is not entirely free to begin with. We make choices based on desire and necessity. There are conditions, circumstances, and consequences which shape our decisions as well.

If Free Will, were truly Free, then we could do whatever we want without consequence and without the influence and pressure from external sources.

Also, certain decisions we make are ones we have to make. We have to eat, we have to sleep, we have to work and make money, we have to do what we can to survive.

Our will is compromised, because our choices and actions are conditional.

I don't personally beleive in Fate, because it suggests that we have no control over our own lives, but I'm sure someone can argue that you can still have control through Fate...I don't know.

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Lord xyz- Yes. If anyone can see the future, then it is fixed. If the future wasn't fixed, then it wouldn't be "the future". It would just be one alternate possibility, out of a million others.

If someone can see THE future, then there is only ONE, and therefore it is fixed.

Originally posted by julibug

Good point - but this could still mean that we have free will within the confines of natural law - "limited free will".

i believe in the "multiverse". that is the theory that at every moment where a choice is made, a reality splits. one where the coice went one way another where the choice went another. the universes need not even differ much it could be as simple as decidint to take a shower or not or brush your teeth etc. i believe also there is a reality where god exists and he doesnt.