Re: Re: God and Free Will
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
If God (or anyone) can see the future, then that means [b]the future is already pre-determined, with one fixed outcome.If there is only one fixed outcome, then there are not other options or choices.
If there are no other options or choices, then there is no true "free will." [/B]
Originally posted by SpearofDestinyEven if no one can see into the future there is only one outcome that will come true. Basically what you arguing is that free will does not exist either way.
If God (or anyone) can see the future, then that means [b]the future is already pre-determined, with one fixed outcome.If there is only one fixed outcome, then there are not other options or choices.
If there are no other options or choices, then there is no true "free will." [/B]
Sidenote: Free will does not appear in the Bible as far as I've seen.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Even if no one can see into the future there is only one outcome that will come true. Basically what you arguing is that free will does not exist either way.
How do you know that ?
If Free Will exists, then that means the future is not certain. The future doesn't exist yet..does it ? So how is it already fixed ?
If we have Free Will, then the future depends on us, we shape it, not the other way around.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Sidenote: Free will does not appear in the Bible as far as I've seen.
That is interesting.
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Omniscience has nothing to do with only one possible future. To knoW all means you would know exactly what would happen if a person chose this or that. God would know what would happen to me if I decided right now to go out and become a serial killer.
That would make sociologists "Gods."
Then again, anyone with common sense would know Czarina would turn out the way she is if you switched her soul to a black body when she has a white soul 😆 .
In all seriousness though, that is a terribly flawed argument.
Originally posted by SpearofDestinyThat doesn't change if God knows. We still choose. That isn't necessarily free will, but we do have choice. I heard people call this free agency. I suggest you look up Alvin Plantinga's free will defense or read Richard Swinburne's "Is There a God?". Both have interesting ideas, not that I totally agree with them. Personally, I starting to consider determinism the best explanation of fate, predestination and free will.
How do you know that ?If Free Will exists, then that means the future is not certain. The future doesn't exist yet..does it ? So how is it already fixed ?
If we have Free Will, then the future depends on us, [b]we shape it
, not the other way around.That is interesting. [/B]
I'm not sure when the concept came into theology. I think the premises of the whole free will argument need to be reconstructed.
Originally posted by chithappens
That would make sociologists "Gods."Then again, anyone with common sense would know Czarina would turn out the way she is if you switched her soul to a black body when she has a white soul 😆 .
In all seraiousness though, that is a terribly flawed argument.
Not really. You all are blatantly ignoring the definition of omniscience.
Omniscience is to know ALL. With INFINITE insight.
If there is only ONE future and God can only know ONE thing you will choose, he does not know ALL and he does not have INFINITE awareness.
Omniscience should mean you know the exact possible outcome of every variable and decision. Not that you see only one inevitable future for all things.
And sociologists don't know jack. They predict and theorize. They can't know everything that will happen to everyone for absolute certainty.
If I believed the bible to be absolute truth, and were able to get past the many obvious contradictions, I would still find it to be teaching that man does not have free will. In fact the words "free will" aren't in the bible anywhere. There's plenty in there about "God's will", though. The confusing part is that it teaches that it's God's will for everyone to be saved...in many places even says that all were saved by Jesus in opposition to all being "unsaved" by Adam...yet Christianity teaches that most people won't be saved (meaning will burn in eternal damnation forever). All I really know is that my daily experience sure feels like free will. Whether it's an illusion or not, I don't know. If there's any truth to the bible at all, I tend to lean toward there being a God that has/had an over-all plan, and that either this God just put things in motion and stepped back to let the experiment unfold, or this God is still the one in control, and we just have a little free will within the confines of natural law, etc., or we really don't have the free will that we think we have, but we get to think we have it. It's getting really late where I am, so I'm sorry if this is starting to make no sense at all. LOL! But for those of you who do believe in the bible, do me a favor and check out martin zender's website: http://martinzender.com/ I've gotten away from most of this stuff nowadays, but there was a time awhile back when I was reading up on all of it.
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Not really. You all are blatantly ignoring the definition of omniscience.Omniscience is to know ALL. With INFINITE insight.
If there is only ONE future and God can only know ONE thing you will choose, he does not know ALL and he does not have INFINITE awareness.
Omniscience should mean you know the exact possible outcome of every variable and decision. Not that you see only one inevitable future for all things.
And sociologists don't know jack. They predict and theorize. They can't know everything that will happen to everyone for absolute certainty.
sigh. your contradicting the most basic logical arguments here.
omniscience is knowing ALL.agreed. so infact as u said, god "does" know what would happen in any possible future IF THAT FUTURE HAD THE POSSIBILITY OF EXISTANCE. no problem there. but what ur not getting is the fact that beyond that god also knows WHICH ONE OF THOSE POSSIBILITIES WILL COME TRUE!!!!!!!!! as in he knows which choices which people will take{and no he knows 100% which path any person wud choose. so that person can never nevr never EVER chooce the other path than what god knows before that person even had a chance to decide} and THAT takes away free will.
there is only one future. god knows that one future. on TOP of that he knows what any other future WOULD look like were it a POSSIBILITY, which it ISNT, since god knows for a fcat WHICH of the possible futures will happen without fail{otherwise u take away his omniscience}. hence no ability of man to choose or contradict the one future god knows.
n ur getting confused in words, omniscience also implies that you know which decision is taken to begin with since in itself a variable is not multiple things at once but a consistant entity which favours one future, hence god also knows the path the variable DOES take on top of knowing the paths it WOULD take given that conditions were different.
sociologists dont known because they can only theorise based on the POSSIBLE ways in which a variable can change and their theorys are based on models where the model holds true only IF the nature of variables falls into the parameters set up by the scientist. on the other hand god knows EXACTLY where each variable is and will be{not "possibly" but for a 100% certain fact}.
as far as the analogy you gave of the responsibility, your partly right. u wudnt be responsible for my throw. but that doesnt relate to god. he CREATED the situation to begin with. ill give you an example, you create a robot from nothing, you create an artifical enviornment from nothing. then you set them up in a way{program etc, taking care of every variable} as that they would end up in the self destruction of the robot. u know this because you have perfect insight and have the ability to see the outcome of every initial combination of matter and energy over a chronological period.
now you give the robot an artificial personality which will act in a way as to make the self destruction happen{again you have perfect insight so u KNOW the outcome when ur designing. and the artificial personality doesnt even exist right now to make the decision of execution of such an initial design to begin with so its all you}. n then you turn on the robot. and it continues on to self destruct as you predicted.
who is responsible for the act of self destruction, you or the robot's artificial personality?????? see the robot's personality{if it was self aware of its own existance based on if u gave it the capability} wud THINK it was responsible but it was really along for the ride{its self awareness} while unknowingly doing ur biding. when infact you made it do what it thought it did on its own. and it cud never EVER have rebelled against that fate, because your insight is perfect. and if it did you wudnt be OMNISCIENT.
and as for ur previous argument, theres a parallel here. just because you as a designer with perfect insight have the ability to see all possible outcomes for all possible DIFFERENT initial conditions, that doesnt mean the robot in question is any closer to following a different initial condition because it has already been designed with one consistant initial condition. what COULD HAVE BEEN doesnt have implication if you have perfect knowledge of what IS.
Originally posted by Shin_NikkolasIt's more to do wit brainwashing. If I and a bunch of people kept telling you you can't climb a wall to the point you believe it yourself, I'd bestopping you climbing a wall. THus, stopping your free will to climb a wall.
What do you mean by rules? Like what you should and should not do to get into Heaven?That doesn't impact your free will. You can still choose to follow those rules or not to. If you don't, you butn forever.
So, it's kind a win-lose choice but it's still your choice to make.
Originally posted by Nellinator
That doesn't change if God knows. We still choose. That isn't necessarily free will, but we do have choice. I heard people call this free agency. I suggest you look up Alvin Plantinga's free will defense or read Richard Swinburne's "Is There a God?". Both have interesting ideas, not that I totally agree with them. Personally, I starting to consider determinism the best explanation of fate, predestination and free will.I'm not sure when the concept came into theology. I think the premises of the whole free will argument need to be reconstructed.
You have proven to me now, and in the past, that you are infact, open minded and review as much information possible before making a conclusion. Good 👆
But I still think you misunderstand what I was trying to say, and that could be my fault for not being thorough enough. So:
If ANYONE knows the future, not just God, but ANYONE, then that means the future is already determined. That means there are no other outcomes, only one, which is therefore fixed and not subject to change. Therefore, we don't truly have a choice, because there is only ONE option.
Now....If NO one knows the future, then how can the future be determined ? If the future doesn't exist yet, then how is there any fixed outcome ? There wouldn't be.
The Future being non-existant and unknown to all, means that the future can only be a result of what we do now, and therefore is not determined, and completely subject to change (Not that there is anything to change yet, but the point is the future is in our hands completely).
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Not really. You all are blatantly ignoring the definition of omniscience.Omniscience is to know ALL. With INFINITE insight.
If there is only ONE future and God can only know ONE thing you will choose, he does not know ALL and he does not have INFINITE awareness.
Omniscience should mean you know the exact possible outcome of every variable and decision. Not that you see only one inevitable future for all things.
If God knows the future, then how could there be other possibilities ? I don't understand what you are trying to say.
If God knows "The Future", then that means there will only be ONE FUTURE, and ALL OTHER POSSIBLE FUTURES are NON-EXISTANT.
I think what you are trying to say is that God knows all the possibilities that will occur as a result of your choices. That's logical, but that's NOT the same thing as God knowing your future.
It's either one or the other, you can't have it both ways.
Originally posted by lord xyz
God knows your future, but that doesn't mean he made it. Well, he did. But he didn't intentionally make your future.
It doesn't matter.
If God knows your future, then your future is fixed, therefore you don't truly have free will, because any choice you make will script out into this future.
It's like acting our a script, literally. That's not free will. That's Fate.
Originally posted by SpearofDestinySo what you are questioning is whether fate exists, more so than you are questioning free will. I believe in fact and free agency, but not free will. Free will is a fanciful concept in my mind because even if the idea could possibly exist there are situations where the circumstances only allow one choice.
You have proven to me now, and in the past, that you are infact, open minded and review as much information possible before making a conclusion. Good 👆But I still think you misunderstand what I was trying to say, and that could be my fault for not being thorough enough. So:
If ANYONE knows the future, not just God, but ANYONE, then that means the future is already determined. That means there are no other outcomes, only one, which is therefore fixed and not subject to change. Therefore, we don't truly have a choice, because there is only ONE option.
[b]Now....
If NO one knows the future, then how can the future be determined ? If the future doesn't exist yet, then how is there any fixed outcome ? There wouldn't be.The Future being non-existant and unknown to all, means that the future can only be a result of what we do now, and therefore is not determined, and completely subject to change (Not that there is anything to change yet, but the point is the future is in our hands completely). [/B]
Originally posted by SpearofDestinySo you're argument is, if someone knows the future, it's fixed?
It doesn't matter.If God knows your future, then your future is fixed, therefore you don't truly have free will, because any choice you make will script out into this future.
It's like acting our a script, literally. That's not free will. That's Fate.