Jehovah, Jesus and Idolatry...

Jehovah is God.

Jesus is the son of God.... but he is worshipped as God and sometimes it is said that he IS God actually.... but at the same time, Jesus is the Son of God.

Jesus is represented differently than Jehovah, they have different names, they are painted diffently in pictures, etc. and Jesus in the bible sometimes refer to God as another being separate from him. That all suggests Jesus and Jehovah are two separate persons.

Question 1 : If there is just one GOD the supreme deity, why there is two different people, Jehovah and Jesus, both described as being GOD the supreme deity ?

Idolatry is defined as worship of an image, idea or object, as opposed to the worship of a supreme being(taken from wikipedia). Now, if GOD the supreme deity is represented in the image of a man know by the name of Jesus.

Question 2 : Isn´t the worship of Jesus... idolatry ?

Depending on which branch of Christianity you follow, the religion is either henotheistic (the trinity) or monothiesitic (god is god). Only in the latter are your questions relevant.

I'd also throw in the idolatry of the cross too.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Jehovah is God.

Jesus is the son of God.... but he is worshipped as God and sometimes it is said that he IS God actually.... but at the same time, Jesus is the Son of God.

Jesus is represented differently than Jehovah, they have different names, they are painted diffently in pictures, etc. and Jesus in the bible sometimes refer to God as another being separate from him. That all suggests Jesus and Jehovah are two separate persons.

[B]Question 1 : If there is just one GOD the supreme deity, why there is two different people, Jehovah and Jesus, both described as being GOD the supreme deity ?

Idolatry is defined as worship of an image, idea or object, as opposed to the worship of a supreme being(taken from wikipedia). Now, if GOD the supreme deity is represented in the image of a man know by the name of Jesus.

Question 2 : Isn´t the worship of Jesus... idolatry ? [/B]

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

Exodus 3:13-14
Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?” And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Just prior to Moses embarking on his mission from God (to demand the emancipation of the Israelites from Pharaoh's dominion) he had a conversation with God. Moses wanted to know God's Name so that he could inform Pharaoh Who sent him. God the Father told Moses that His Name is "I AM." This is a very important designation.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jesus Christ identifies Himself with the exact same designation as the Father. I AM is a Name that denotes God's eternal, self-existence. Jesus is God, not God the Father, but God the Son (i.e. He is equal with God).

Matthew 2:2
2 saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”

These men traveled for approximately two years to find and worship the infant Jesus. I don't know about you but I wouldn't travel a fraction of an inch to worship anyone. Yet these men subjected themselves to the rigors of traveling (probably on camel) across desert and treacherous terrain. They probably had to contend with wild animals and inclement weather and other discomforts.

All for what?

They were coming to worship God in the flesh, Jesus the Christ.

Luke 5:21
And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Luke 5:24
But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins...."

Jesus even forgave sins while He was on earth.

Matthew 28:9
And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

Jesus receives worship. Under the Law of Moses (which was the Supreme Law of the Land for the Israelites, similar to our U.S. Constitution) the Jews were forbidden from worshipping any other god but the One, True, God.

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he [the angel] said to me [John], “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Revelation 22:8-9
Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

In the Book of Revelation John, one of Jesus' closest disciples and apostles was so overcome with the revelation that he received from the angel that he fell down at his (the angel's) feet to worship him on more than one occasion. But the angel immediately and sternly warned and forbid John from doing thus both times. The angel told the apostle John to worship God

Luke 24:52
And they worshiped Him [Jesus], and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

John 9:35-38
Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?” He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.” Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.

Notice that unlike the angel Jesus never refrains from receiving worship. On every occasion where someone worshipped Jesus, Jesus did not warn them, or try to stop them. Jesus did not forbid anyone from worshipping Him and worship belongs only to God. Friends, Jesus is God and not a god.

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

The fact that Jesus is the Son of God does not imply that He is less than or inferior to the Father. Son of God means that Jesus is equal to the Father in every way. The Jews knew this that is why they sought all the more to kill Jesus. Son of God means that Jesus is God, God the Son.

Colossians 1:16
For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

God is the Creator correct? Well, this verse is a reference to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Creator and Jesus Christ is God, God the Son.

John 10:30
I and My Father are one .”

Jesus affirmed that He and His Father are one. What does Jesus mean? Jesus means that He and His Father constitute one "God" but not one divine Person. There is God the Father and there is God the Son, and there is God the Holy Spirit. One God in three Persons.

Jesus Christ is God, God the Son. I have already addressed this query in the above quote.

Okay, let's ignore 1inChrist. Every time someone respongs to him, the thread goes to hell faster then his fictional doomed sinners. But seriously, why are you asking this? You must be familar with the doctrine of the Trinity, right? (In fact, you even mention it)

If you're asking why the Doctrine of the Trinity seems at odd with some Biblical passages, it wasn't around when the Bible was being written.

don't forget that many people think that Jehovah was just Jesus name before He was born.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus Christ is God, God the Son. I have already addressed this query in the above quote.

That what you have written is just restating the fact that the man Jesus is identified with God the supreme deity.

I am not arguing against this identification. What I am saying is that this identification of God the supreme deity with a man called Jesus is a Idolatry. It doesn´t matter if Jesus is God or not.

In the same way, if two different people both ARE the supreme deity, then there are more than one God. Unless you say that there is no Jehovah and Jesus, and that they are the same person, so any kind of distinction between them is false. But then the different names, and different representations, or even the concept of a trinity makes no sense.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
That what you have written is just restating the fact that the man Jesus is identified with God the supreme deity.

I am not arguing against this identification. What I am saying is that this identification of God the supreme deity with a man called Jesus is a Idolatry. It doesn´t matter if Jesus is God or not.

In the same way, if two different people both ARE the supreme deity, then there are more than one God. Unless you say that there is no Jehovah and Jesus, and that they are the same person, so any kind of distinction between them is false. But then the different names, and different representations, or even the concept of a trinity makes no sense.

Think of the Godhead (i.e. deity) as a fraternity (it is not but I am using an example that we can all relate to) and the benefits of this fraternity are omnipotence (all-power), omniscience (all-knowledge), and omnipresence (ubiquity). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each in this fraternity if you would. Each Person has all three attributes respectively. So each One is God. Just as a "fraternity" is singular so too is God. God is one but manifested in three distinct Persons. The Lord Jesus told His disciples,

John 14:7
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Atlantis001, The Lord Jesus Christ said that he (or she) who has seen Him has seen the Father. All that the Father is in terms of His ways, thoughts, character, etc. is expressed through His Son Jesus. Jesus is the express image of God the Father's Person. This is not a reference to what God looks like but to His ways, thoughts, and character. The compassion that Jesus consistently demonstrated for people (the sick, oppressed, afflicted, down-trodden, the dead) is the same way that the Father feels for those people. The love that Jesus has for all nations is the same love that the Father has for all people. Jesus is God in the flesh, the very nature of God the Father (i.e. all of His attributes) in human flesh. The only qualities of the Father that Jesus lacked were omnipotence (all-power), omniscience (all-knowledge), and omnipresence (ubiquity). Jesus temporarily emptied Himself or laid aside these attributes for sake of becoming a Man. But Jesus retained His oneness in purpose, will, thought, and intention, and motive with the Father. Jesus showed us what His Father is like (for one of a better way to say it). I am just using an analogy here so bear with me Atlantis001. Let us say that we want to know what satan is like. In other words, what would satan be like if he were a man. Imagine that Adolf Hitler, Timothy Mcveigh, the Columbine killers, Sadam Hussein, and Osama Bin Laden were one person. The person who embodies all of these people's evil thoughts and actions would not come close to describing the devil, but it gives you an idea just how wicked he is. Well, in the converse Jesus showed us what the Father is like inasmuch as He said that He who has seen Him has in essence seen the Father. Jesus Christ is not another God, He is God, God the Son. All that the Father is, Jesus Christ is also. They are one God but revealed as three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each one is God. Water is one element but it has at least three modes of expression or forms if you would. They are liquid, solid, and gas. Moreover, objects in this physical world such as a cube of gold can be described in three-dimensions. They are length, width, and height. A cube of gold is a singular something or object having three dimensions (i.e. modes of expression). Just as the cube of gold has three sides or modes of expression, God is one having three modes of expression. Another example can be perceived in this reality that we call life. We can see that space, time, and matter are characteristics of this physical world. But there remains only one life, world, or reality that we know of. But see, it too has three modes of expression. So, God is one but having three modes of expression just like liquid, solid and gas, length, width, and height, space, time, and matter.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus Christ is God, God the Son. I have already addressed this query in the above quote.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Think of the Godhead (i.e. deity) as a fraternity (it is not but I am using an example that we can all relate to) and the benefits of this fraternity are omnipotence (all-power), omniscience (all-knowledge), and omnipresence (ubiquity). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each in this fraternity if you would. Each Person has all three attributes respectively. So each One is God. Just as a "fraternity" is singular so too is God. God is one but manifested in three distinct Persons. The Lord Jesus told His disciples,

[B]John 14:7
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Atlantis001, The Lord Jesus Christ said that he (or she) who has seen Him has seen the Father. All that the Father is in terms of His ways, thoughts, character, etc. is expressed through His Son Jesus. Jesus is the express image of God the Father's Person. This is not a reference to what God looks like but to His ways, thoughts, and character. The compassion that Jesus consistently demonstrated for people (the sick, oppressed, afflicted, down-trodden, the dead) is the same way that the Father feels for those people. The love that Jesus has for all nations is the same love that the Father has for all people. Jesus is God in the flesh, the very nature of God the Father (i.e. all of His attributes) in human flesh. The only qualities of the Father that Jesus lacked were omnipotence (all-power), omniscience (all-knowledge), and omnipresence (ubiquity). Jesus temporarily emptied Himself or laid aside these attributes for sake of becoming a Man. But Jesus retained His oneness in purpose, will, thought, and intention, and motive with the Father. Jesus showed us what His Father is like (for one of a better way to say it). I am just using an analogy here so bear with me Atlantis001. Let us say that we want to know what satan is like. In other words, what would satan be like if he were a man. Imagine that Adolf Hitler, Timothy Mcveigh, the Columbine killers, Sadam Hussein, and Osama Bin Laden were one person. The person who embodies all of these people's evil thoughts and actions would not come close to describing the devil, but it gives you an idea just how wicked he is. Well, in the converse Jesus showed us what the Father is like inasmuch as He said that He who has seen Him has in essence seen the Father. Jesus Christ is not another God, He is God, God the Son. All that the Father is, Jesus Christ is also. They are one God but revealed as three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each one is God. Water is one element but it has at least three modes of expression or forms if you would. They are liquid, solid, and gas. Moreover, objects in this physical world such as a cube of gold can be described in three-dimensions. They are length, width, and height. A cube of gold is a singular something or object having three dimensions (i.e. modes of expression). Just as the cube of gold has three sides or modes of expression, God is one having three modes of expression. Another example can be perceived in this reality that we call life. We can see that space, time, and matter are characteristics of this physical world. But there remains only one life, world, or reality that we know of. But see, it too has three modes of expression. So, God is one but having three modes of expression just like liquid, solid and gas, length, width, and height, space, time, and matter. [/B]

They are still two different persons, Jehovah and Jesus.

Jesus still is a image.... being or not a representation of God and his ways, thoughts, etc...

JIA how did you do in college anyways, assuming you went past that. You do not seem to be able the question at hand and answer the question you want to.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
They are still two different persons, Jehovah and Jesus.

Jesus still is a image.... being or not a representation of God and his ways, thoughts, etc...

They constitute one God, not one Person. Jesus is God, God the Son. God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit; that is Who God is. One God revealed in three modes of expression, Father God, Son God (or Son of God), and God Holy Spirit (or the Spirit of God). This does not have to make sense for it to still be true. There are a lot of things in this life that make absolutely no sense whatsoever and you know what? They are still true. The Holocaust, 9/11, Columbine, genocide, racism, etc. make no sense to me and yet these events are still true (it either occurred or is a present-tense reality). So Jesus is worthy of worship because He is God, God the Son you don't have to understand this to believe it. I presume to say that there are a multitude of things that you do not understand and yet you still accept them. If I were to ask you How does the mind do what it does, would you be able to explain this to me in a satisfactory manner?

Ahhh...henotheism.

So much for Christians claiming to be monotheisitic.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
They constitute one God, not one Person. Jesus is God, God the Son. God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit; that is Who God is. One God revealed in three modes of expression. Jesus is worthy of worship because He is God, God the Son.

A gestalt entity eh?

Reminds me of Voltron. Or the Destructicons.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
They are still two different persons, Jehovah and Jesus.

Jesus still is a image.... being or not a representation of God and his ways, thoughts, etc...

But yet you don't get flustered right, you just accept that you have a mind and that it enables you to think, rationalize, move, process information, read, write, etc. Similarly, you don't have to understand how God is one yet reavealed in three Persons, just accept it as though you do the workings of the mind.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But yet you don't get flustered right, you just accept that you have a mind and that it enables you to think, rationalize, move, process information, read, write, etc. Similarly, you don't have to understand how God is one yet reavealed in three Persons, just accept it as though you do the workings of the mind.

That is an... odd... comparison to say the least.

We accept out brains work so we should just accept what you say about the nature of the trinity, despite the fact our working brains, which we just accept, find possible flaws with any theory on the trinity.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Jehovah is God.

* i beg to disagree, my friend... "jehovah" is not God, "jehovah" is the god of the Jehovah's Witnesses...

* "jehovah" came from JHVH, that they translated from YHWH, much like "yahweh"... but the true name of God is the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH...

* if we consider "jehovah" and "yahweh", we can also consider "johovoh", "jeheveh", "yahwah", "yuhwuh", etc... 😆

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Jesus is the son of God.... but he is worshipped as God and sometimes it is said that he IS God actually.... but at the same time, Jesus is the Son of God.

Jesus is represented differently than Jehovah, they have different names, they are painted diffently in pictures, etc. and Jesus in the bible sometimes refer to God as another being separate from him. That all suggests Jesus and Jehovah are two separate persons.

* the Father and Christ are two different entities but They are not separate, in fact, They are one, as in, united as one...

Originally posted by Atlantis001
[B]Question 1 : If there is just one GOD the supreme deity, why there is two different people, Jehovah and Jesus, both described as being GOD the supreme deity ? [/B]

* Christ is not only the Son of God, but He is the Only Begotten Son of God... if the being of the Father is spirit, His Son is also spirit... if the Father is God, His Son is also a God...

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Idolatry is defined as worship of an image, idea or object, as opposed to the worship of a supreme being(taken from wikipedia). Now, if GOD the supreme deity is represented in the image of a man know by the name of Jesus.

[B]Question 2 : Isn´t the worship of Jesus... idolatry ? [/B]

* nope...

"You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,"
Deuteronomy 5:7-9

* now, that is idolatry... the Bible tells us to whom we should worship...

"I John am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me;
But he said to me, You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Revelation 22:8-9

* the angel of God rejected worship from Saint John and rebuked him... the angel says we should worship God...

"When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
But Peter lifted him up, saying, Stand up; I too am a man."
Acts 10:25-26

* even the apostle Peter rejected worship... but is Jesus a God too, like the Father that we should worship?

"Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"
Titus 2:13

"Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:"
II Peter 1:1

* according to Saint Peter and Saint Paul, Christ Jesus is a God and Savior...

"But of the Son he says, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom."
Hebrews 1:8

* even the Father Himself says that Jesus is a God... should we worship Jesus?

"That all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."
John 5:23

* we should honor Christ as we honor the Father...

"Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me."
John 14:1

* we should believe in Christ as we believe in the Father...

"And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, Let all God's angels worship him."
Hebrews 1:6

* the angels of God are commanded to worship Christ... moreso for us...

"Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if you are asked about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it."
I Peter 3:15

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
They constitute one God, not one Person. Jesus is God, God the Son. God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit; that is Who God is. One God revealed in three modes of expression, Father God, Son God (or Son of God), and God Holy Spirit (or the Spirit of God). This does not have to make sense for it to still be true. There are a lot of things in this life that make absolutely no sense whatsoever and you know what? They are still true. The Holocaust, 9/11, Columbine, genocide, racism, etc. make no sense to me and yet these events are still true (it either occurred or is a present-tense reality). So Jesus is worthy of worship because He is God, God the Son you don't have to understand this to believe it. I presume to say that there are a multitude of things that you do not understand and yet you still accept them. If I were to ask you How does the mind do what it does, would you be able to explain this to me in a satisfactory manner?

Okay, so they constitute the same one God.

But they still constitute a form of idolatry... God is represented in three images... all of them(the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit) are images and ideas of how God can be manifested.

Here is the definition of Idolatry(taken from wikipedia) : "Idolatry is a major sin in the Abrahamic religions regarding image. In Judaism and Christianity it is defined as worship of an image, idea or object... "

The Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are representations of God, they are images and ideas concerning God, so, they constitute idolatry.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i beg to disagree, my friend... "jehovah" is not God, "jehovah" is the god of the Jehovah's Witnesses...

* "jehovah" came from JHVH, that they translated from YHWH, much like "yahweh"... but the true name of God is the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH...

* if we consider "jehovah" and "yahweh", we can also consider "johovoh", "jeheveh", "yahwah", "yuhwuh", etc... 😆

It does not matter anyway... its just a name. You know... I had to call God something...

* Christ is not only the Son of God, but He is the Only Begotten Son of God... if the being of the Father is spirit, His Son is also spirit... if the Father is God, His Son is also a God...

Depends.... if the Son of God is ALSO a God, then there is more than one God. I think there are many ways to interpretate the bible, so I don´t see why we can´t use this interpretation.

But, well... it remains the fact that Jesus, and the trinity is still a representation of God, so, they are idolatry.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Okay, so they constitute the same one God.

But they still constitute a form of idolatry... God is represented in three images... all of them(the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit) are images and ideas of how God can be manifested.

Here is the definition of Idolatry(taken from wikipedia) : "Idolatry is a major sin in the Abrahamic religions regarding image. In Judaism and Christianity it is defined as worship of an image, idea or object... "

The Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are representations of God, they are images and ideas concerning God, so, they constitute idolatry.

The Godhead is not idolatry. Go back and read the Bible to get a clear understanding of what idolatry is. Idolatry is worship of idols (inanimate objects). Idolatry encompasses the worship of any thing or anyone other than God.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) idolaltry includes anything that we esteem, admire, or value above or more than God.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Godhead is not idolatry. Go back and read the Bible to get a clear understanding of what idolatry is. Idolatry is worship of idols (inanimate objects). Idolatry encompasses the worship of any thing or anyone other than God.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) idolaltry includes anything that we esteem, admire, or value above or more than God.

So, the bible would then be an idol to you.