Icon Battle 3

Originally posted by lando005
and nobody's answering the question would he still be where he is if someone like spidy appeared at the same time

superman came along by himself so ofcourse he would be the bench mark there was no one else to compair him to at the time

you're wrong there. there were other comic books before superman. flash gordon. the phantom. tarzan. some UK books as well that i can't recall off-hand. the beauty of superman is that when he was introduced, he opened an entirely new WORLD of comics -- the superhero.

spidey, for all your saying his characterization somehow puts him on the same level with supes, did nothing nearly so grandiose. superman was and remains an archetype. spiderman is not. therein lies the ultimate differnce, i think.

Originally posted by leonidas
you're wrong there. there were other comic books before superman. flash gordon. the phantom. tarzan. some UK books as well that i can't recall off-hand. the beauty of superman is that when he was introduced, he opened an entirely new WORLD of comics -- the superhero.

spidey, for all your saying his characterization somehow puts him on the same level with supes, did nothing nearly so grandiose. superman was and remains an archetype. spiderman is not. therein lies the ultimate differnce, i think.

Originally posted by lando005
but that's the whole thing people wanted a hero and had nothing else to go by ther's no way in hell that wouldnt make a diffrence in what people think... all i'm saying is takeing away superman's advantage of comeing first, back then in thoes times when people were most receptive what would have happen? i think it would be a totally diffrent situation

Originally posted by lando005
but that's the whole thing people wanted a hero and had nothing else to go by ther's no way in hell that wouldnt make a diffrence in what people think... all i'm saying is takeing away superman's advantage of comeing first, back then in thoes times when people were most receptive what would have happen? i think it would be a totally diffrent situation

not necessarily true at all. in the era supes was created the world (our part) had gone to sh!t. superman was . . . a beacon, a character who carried everyone ABOVE the mess of the real world. it is at least equally fair to say that the people in the midst of the depression would have hated spiderman, a character who fiddled around in the muck right beside them. perhaps superman was so successful because he gave readers of the time exactly what they needed -- an escape from the drudgery of their miserable, everyday lives.

Originally posted by Juntai
The question doesn't need to be answered. It's hypothetical and useless to the thread, because it's simply not the way it is. It's not the way it's happened. Superman's iconship involves him being the first true Superhero, the first mass marketed Superhero, the first mass media Superhero.

You're asking us who's the bigger icon today.

And now you're trying to force us into this hypothetical fantasy 'what if' version of reality, where Spiderman is just as old.. but it's irrelivent to what the thread asked for.

Originally posted by leonidas
not necessarily true at all. in the era supes was created the world (our part) had gone to sh!t. superman was . . . a beacon, a character who carried everyone ABOVE the mess of the real world. it is at least equally fair to say that the people in the midst of the depression would have hated spiderman, a character who fiddled around in the muck right beside them. perhaps superman was so successful because he gave readers of the time exactly what they needed -- an escape from the drudgery of their miserable, everyday lives.

Originally posted by lando005
you fail to grasp the concept of this forum it's not just about the bigger icon hell i even said superman was but there is a reason for that comeing along first before anyone else was created DOES make a big diffrance that person is already set in place nobody can forget him this is about who's made the bigger impact prestige of who was first doent apply here that's why i put up that "what if" scinario because you and i both know superman wouldnt be holding that #1 spot decisivly

you seem to be implying that had we replaced superman with spiderman in 193whatever, that SPIDERMAN would have been THE icon. i disagree, and would contend that had spidey been intro'd in supes' time, that spidey would have fallen by the way side because he was not what people were craving.

spidey's timing was great. people had begun to grow tired of dc's 'perfect' characters, so a change was needed -- and most welcomed. lee's impact was monstrous on the industry and changed the way heroes were seen, no doubt. but they were still playing the game dc invented -- lee just tinkered with the rules a little.

nice civil discussion, gents. 🙂

Originally posted by Juntai
It -might- be, but that's not the way it happened. This isn't your hypothetical world. This is the real world, were Superman is the first true to life Superhero, and Spiderman came several years later as part of the media grouping Superman created. Why debate the hypothetical bullshit when it's simply not the way it happened?

all i'm asking is takeing these 2 characters and putting them on equal footing which one would have made the bigger impact who would have been more than just a comic book character to the people

Originally posted by leonidas
nice civil discussion, gents. 🙂

Originally posted by lando005
the reason why i ask this? i thought it would be clear superman is engrainded in our mindset as the archtype of a superhero.... you are all correct on that point but at the same time if lets say the green lantern was created first befor anyone else wouldnt he be the archtype the goal the beach mark that eveyone looked up to? that's why it matters on who came first superman earned his position by default it's like haveing a contest without anyone to compete against

all i'm asking is takeing these 2 characters and putting them on equal footing which one would have made the bigger impact who would have been more than just a comic book character to the people

I still have to disagree with you and agree with Leo. Spiderman was successful because it went against the status quo of DC's 'perfect heros'. I don't think Spiderman would have been as successful coming out amidst the Great Depession.

Originally posted by leonidas
you seem to be implying that had we replaced superman with spiderman in 193whatever, that SPIDERMAN would have been THE icon. i disagree, and would contend that had spidey been intro'd in supes' time, that spidey would have fallen by the way side because he was not what people were craving.

spidey's timing was great. people had begun to grow tired of dc's 'perfect' characters, so a change was needed -- and most welcomed. lee's impact was monstrous on the industry and changed the way heroes were seen, no doubt. but they were still playing the game dc invented -- lee just tinkered with the rules a little.

it was also a 50/50 shot with superman he just got the better half of the 50 people could have easily resented and hated a character who was for all pratical purposes living the good life at the time, we as humanbeing can be very jelouse and envious people for thoes who are fairing better than us now and days it's just called hateing

Originally posted by Juntai
So basically you're admitting that Supes is the ICON, but you feel that it would be different if they had come out at the same time?

I still have to disagree with you and agree with Leo. Spiderman was successful because it went against the status quo of DC's 'perfect heros'. I don't think Spiderman would have been as successful coming out amidst the Great Depession.

the reason why i created this thread was because i was curious and i KNOW spider-man i know the impact that he has and what he's about and we all know what superman is about that much is undenyable but you cant help but to admit being the first of your kind has ALOT to do with it soo with that in mind looking past the barriers of "that's just how things are" and keeping in mind what these characters are about and how they've effected people what would the case be if they both came out the time superman originally appeared

Originally posted by lando005
you make a good point but at the same time it is debateable that the people could have liked spider-man as well, seeing someone just like them a person who's come across hard times yet still trying to make the best of it and doing the right thing would apeel to people in that situation a way of giving hope as in "if he could do it so can i" or "his issues are > or= mine so it cant be all bad" kind of attitude

it was also a 50/50 shot with superman he just got the better half of the 50 people could have easily resented and hated a character who was for all pratical purposes living the good life at the time, we as humanbeing can be very jelouse and envious people for thoes who are fairing better than us now and days it's just called hateing

other characters, as i said, already DID exist. much more 'human' characters than superman but none of them left an indellible mark like superman did. why would spiderman have been more popular than the shadow?

of course i can't say with certainty that spidey would NOT have been really popular back in the 30s, but the given the types of heroes that already existed, and given that superman was such a departure from that type, leads me to think that spiderman would NOT have had the impact that superman did.

Originally posted by leonidas
other characters, as i said, already DID exist. much more 'human' characters than superman but none of them left an indellible mark like superman did. why would spiderman have been more popular than the shadow?

of course i can't say with certainty that spidey would NOT have been really popular back in the 30s, but the given the types of heroes that already existed, and given that superman was such a departure from that type, leads me to think that spiderman would NOT have had the impact that superman did.

not chance. it wasn't luck that made them what they are. circumstances surrounding them dictated their success and their suitability to those circumstances. which is why it is so hard to play 'substitute the heroes'. the very reasons they were created were dependent on their surrounding times. the 30s was a perfect time for superman because the world wanted to be elevated above the hardships of the everyday, not reminded of them. the 60s was perfect for lee and his vision of the 'new' superhero because people were tired of the same old.

to remove them from their times removes them from the exact reasons WHY they were so successful in the first place.

Originally posted by leonidas
not chance. it wasn't luck that made them what they are. circumstances surrounding them dictated their success and their suitability to those circumstances. which is why it is so hard to play 'substitute the heroes'. the very reasons they were created were dependent on their surrounding times. the 30s was a perfect time for superman because the world wanted to be elevated above the hardships of the everyday, not reminded of them. the 60s was perfect for lee and his vision of the 'new' superhero because people were tired of the same old.

to remove them from their times removes them from the exact reasons WHY they were so successful in the first place.

Originally posted by lando005
i'll agree with you on the good timeing but there was and always would be the risk of both of them failing nothing was set in stone nobody could tell for 100% accuracy what the future might hold, that aside though you present a very strong argument that's hard to go against, so i ask you this if the 2 were to be presented to an indiffrent audieance for the first time how would it turn out? thing is i want to know who would prove the better on a totally even playing field here? your argument about the people at the times is all but flawless and can be depicted as an advantasious situation for superman

that's a tough question. you could make a strong case for one or the other by simply checking how their current books are doing relative to each other. that would indicate how the public perceives the characters at the moment.

i think currently superman is outselling spidey, but that may not mean if both were brand new that would be the case. i tend to think people would like spidey better personally, but have no real justification for it. readers today (novels and comics) seem to enjoy characters they can relate to better than characters far removed from them, like supes and other cosmics. but your question is really hard to answer.

interesting discussion. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
that's a tough question. you could make a strong case for one or the other by simply checking how their current books are doing relative to each other. that would indicate how the public perceives the characters at the moment.

i think currently superman is outselling spidey, but that may not mean if both were brand new that would be the case. i tend to think people would like spidey better personally, but have no real justification for it. readers today (novels and comics) seem to enjoy characters they can relate to better than characters far removed from them, like supes and other cosmics. but your question is really hard to answer.

interesting discussion. 🙂