Originally posted by Rampant ox
What are you saying? That Maul is as smart at duelling as Dooku? Give me a f*ckin break.
You regard Dooku as super-smart, super-powerful, leetnees, he's not, far from it, and probably even more Over-confident than Maul, Dooku toys with people while fighting them, Maul toys with people after their down for the count, you tell me which is smarter
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
You regard Dooku as super-smart, super-powerful, leetnees, he's not, far from it, and probably even more Over-confident than Maul, Dooku toys with people while fighting them, Maul toys with people after their down for the count, you tell me which is smarter
But Dooku has the skill to back himself up. He more often than not can be arrogant but still pwn. Also when he realises that he is losing he stops pissing around, read the novel - it will tell you.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
But Dooku has the skill to back himself up. He more often than not can be arrogant but still pwn. Also when he realises that he is losing he stops pissing around, read the novel - it will tell you.
Dude, the Anakin, Obi-Wan vs Dooku fight was proof enough, he got pwned there, he was toying with him till the last couple Lightsaber strikes, Maul does not take those chances, he waits till they're down
*sighs* Surely you get my point. Dooku is a smarter fighter. His 6 odd decades more experience should clearly show that. Yes he toys with the opponent, but only when he is confident he can win. When the going gets tough he fights properly. It states that in the novel. Maul is a great fighter, he goes straight for the kill. But afterwards he lets his guard down - thus being killed.
advent, you said that obi-wan gave into the darkside. i dont rekon he did, yeh he had a super pissed look on his face but i dont think he gave in. if he had, he would have turned to the darkside, as its been said its hard to turn your back on the darkside once you embrace it. futhermore, i think he simply focused all of his anger into his moves, allowing him to fight back... for a while.
Man, what's up with all the Dooku haters. The guy's probably the third strongest there is in the movies.
Anyways, Qui-Gon most likely has this. imo, he displayed better swordsmanship and overall skill in TPM than Obi-Wan did, and he has way more experience with Ataru than Obi-Wan does with Soresu (considering he switched forms after TPM, so he only has about ten years experience at this point).
ROTS Obi-Wan > TPM Qui-Gon > AOTC Obi-Wan, in my eyes.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol, they were using fake lightsaber forms. They tricked him, and when he figured that out he stopped playing and went for the kill. Yes he is arrogant when he fights - but not enough to get him killed, and certainly not as much as Maul.
they tricked him? well thats not too smart, is it? That shouldn't have mattered anyway. He's a master of "THE GREATEST FORM EVER" so it shouldn't matter cause he's so smart and fast and talented that he should be able to kill anyone with any style.
Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
advent, you said that obi-wan gave into the darkside. i dont rekon he did, yeh he had a super pissed look on his face but i dont think he gave in. if he had, he would have turned to the darkside, as its been said its hard to turn your back on the darkside once you embrace it. futhermore, i think he simply focused all of his anger into his moves, allowing him to fight back... for a while.
it states in the novel he did. You cant do that in the movies cause a voice over narrator would be cheesier than Jar Jar. And Luke also tapped into the darkside in ROTJ. There's a difference in tapping into it and turning to it. Anakin wasn't a Sith when he killed all the Taliban, I mean Tusken raiders. It still took awhile. A Jedi can hold animosity towards someone, its just if they use that anger to attack, then that leads to the darkside. OB1 didn't use it that much. Not to sound like he can choose how much, but as to say he didn't do it enough to turn to the darkside.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
*sighs* Surely you get my point. Dooku is a smarter fighter. His 6 odd decades more experience should clearly show that. Yes he toys with the opponent, but only when he is confident he can win. When the going gets tough he fights properly. It states that in the novel. Maul is a great fighter, he goes straight for the kill. But afterwards he lets his guard down - thus being killed.
Again, age doesn't mean better. Experience isa BIG help, but id say going right in for the kill is smarter than toying with someone you think you can beat. I'm sure he was confident that he could beat Anakin and OB1 again...you saw what happened there.
But Qui Gon wins this.
Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
advent, you said that obi-wan gave into the darkside. i dont rekon he did, yeh he had a super pissed look on his face but i dont think he gave in. if he had, he would have turned to the darkside, as its been said its hard to turn your back on the darkside once you embrace it. futhermore, i think he simply focused all of his anger into his moves, allowing him to fight back... for a while.
Except that is incorrect. Obi-Wan Kenobi never actually joined the Darkside, nor fully immersed himself. There is much difference between using your anger in the way Kenobi did, and the supposed "quote" given by a fallible, third party character. Kenobi did give into the Darkside, he used his emotions in anger.
Furthermore:
"Kenobi, enraged, attacked Maul. This barrage was deflected by Maul who used Obi-Wan's touching of the dark side as a conduit for a Force attack; using the Force, Maul pushed Obi-Wan into a deep mining pit. Kenobi held onto an outcropping for dear life. Calming himself by calling upon the light side of the Force, Kenobi was able to surprise Maul, and cleave him in half with his saber. "
-- Star Wars databank, Darth Maul.
And the novelization more than backs up that he literally went crazy, and was attacking in a frenzy. Much like Anakin did in ROTS against Kenobi, not like Anakin did against Dooku. As well, Subjekt's analogy was perfect. Luke used the Darkside to fuel him in the duel against Vader (once Vader talked about Leia), once he beat Vader though, he calmed himself. Same thing.
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
1.)Maul was surprised that the Padawan Obi-Wan jumped over him
2.)Obi-Wan was super pissed
3.)It in no way showed skill
1.) The moment Maul pushed the attack on Qui-Gon he died
2.) Obi-Wan had Maul backed up
3.) Everyone says Maul Force Pushing Obi-Wan in the hole means that Maul is far better than Obi-Wan. Maul just managed to get lucky because Obi-Wan was beating Maul.
TPM Qui-Gon is about as good in saber skills as TPM Obi-Wan. ATOC Obi-Wan has 10 more years to practice.
Originally posted by ESB -1138
1.) The moment Maul pushed the attack on Qui-Gon he died
2.) Obi-Wan had Maul backed up
3.) Everyone says Maul Force Pushing Obi-Wan in the hole means that Maul is far better than Obi-Wan. Maul just managed to get lucky because Obi-Wan was beating Maul.TPM Qui-Gon is about as good in saber skills as TPM Obi-Wan. ATOC Obi-Wan has 10 more years to practice.
1. wrong. The moment that Maul learned how QGJ was fighting, he found a weakness and exploited it.
2. OB1 was being tooled until he gave in to his anger. Maul was the better fighter, as the Novel states, he just surprised maul at first with his sudden ferocity.
3. It was OB1 who was lucky Maul didnt send him down the shaft. Maul had OB1 beat and then got stupid. Ob1 capitalized.
QGJ > OB1 in TPM in force and combat. By AOTC, id say OB! was ahead in combat skills, bt still not the force.
Obi-wan lost to Maul in TCW. I'd say his battle with Grevious puts him above Qui-Gon, but he never surpassed Maul.
A clone of Darth Maul was also proven to be more powerful than Vader in Star Wars Tales Volume 3, but Vader won as Obi-Wan did, by stabbing through himself he surprised Maul in the same way Obi-wan got a hold of Qui-Gon's saber; a thing Maul did not take into consideration.
Both times, Maul lost because of inattentiveness, yet both times he was more powerful than his opponent as far as combat prowess is concerned although I believe Vader possessed a far larger pool of Force reserves.
The Vader that lost to Obi-wan on Mustafar was afraid - by virtue of being afraid he lost control and was unable to fully harness that infinite pool of Force reserves like when he fought Dooku.
In fact Anakin lasted longer and put up more of a fight against Dooku than Obi-wan in AoTC, but that was merely due to Tyranus' dun moch, which made Obi-wan mess up like he did against Maul in TCW.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Qui-Gon in his prime is said to be next to Mace and Dooku.Think about that.
No he wasn't. Think about that.
I have scanned half a dozen canon sources none of which indicate Qui-Gon did anything but spar against Mace and Dooku. And considering even Tiin has sparred with Mace that means nothing. Sparring with and sparring with on equal terms are two different things.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaThen argue with people on the star wars wiki. Not me
No he wasn't. Think about that.I have scanned half a dozen canon sources none of which indicate Qui-Gon did anything but spar against Mace and Dooku. And considering even Tiin has sparred with Mace that means nothing. Sparring with and sparring with on equal terms are two different things.