Originally posted by Nephthys
There was a Sith in the Revan book who lost most of his power through old age
Not rue. The book says he lost power because A) he's human and "inferior" to Sith purebloods and B) completely overuse of the dark side.
These two factors led him to age faster than he should have.
I highly doubt Jedi get in for those stuff and the Force can make up for old age, but it still takes energy that could have gone elsewhere to do so.
Originally posted by Based
Not rue. The book says he lost power because A) he's human and "inferior" to Sith purebloods and B) completely overuse of the dark side.These two factors led him to age faster than he should have.
But its still age that is weakening him, those other factors are just contributing to it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I highly doubt Jedi get in for those stuff and the Force can make up for old age, but it still takes energy that could have gone elsewhere to do so.But its still age that is weakening him, those other factors are just contributing to it.
My mind is still blown that you both uncritically accept this quote and that you think fifty is old enough to be weakened in any truly measurable way. Yoda can augment his puny body to throw Sidious back during parries. Unless Qui-Gon is a Force weakling in comparison, or the Force dies along with your hair follicles, this makes no sense.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
My mind is still blown that you both uncritically accept this quote and that you think fifty is old enough to be weakened in any truly measurable way. Yoda can augment his puny body to throw Sidious back during parries. Unless Qui-Gon is a Force weakling in comparison, or the Force dies along with your hair follicles, this makes no sense.
As I said, the Force can make up for it, but you're still making up for it. Its still more of an effort for you. You are still diminished.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're absolutely right. A fifty year old man who had continuous martial training, a regimented lifestyle, access to medicine beyond our ken, and supernatural powers was weakened by advanced age and needed his nurse aid Kenobi to get him his prunes and find his walking cane.
---
Canon sources confirm that Force-users are not immune to aging related decline.
@Moose:
Sixty is old enough to be weakened in pretty much every measurable way. This is especially evident when looking at career athletes in the more rugged sports, a population whose nearly every member shares two relevant things: (1) unusual physical gifts, effectively greater "potential," and (2) through their training the closest thing to a realization of said potential that anyone around is likely to reach. How many of these athletes are putting up personal bests in their late thirties? How many are even competitive by that point? Circumstances (a diluted pool of competitive talent), unrealized talent (for whatever reason [devotion to training, etc.], stars align and it gives the athlete a second wind of sorts), or an unusual resilience of body and the relevant motor skills (primarily a function of genetics and a dearth of unlucky plays [= injuries] in contact/rougher sports, probably also an emphasis on technique and a lower standard for physicality in the lighter ones) are the rare conditions that allow an athlete to excel past his prime, and that prime comes pretty early in life in the grand scheme of things. I'll grant that those lifestyles contribute to the youth/+ disparity even more drastically because of the sustained punishment (joints scraped clean of cartilage, connective tissues torn and soft tissues battered, bones broken, neurological functions dulled, etc.). Even in the general ("Western"😉 population though, metabolic activity starts trending more and more towards catabolism and adiposity as early as your mid-twenties. Obviously this sample size of several hundred million has plenty of statistical outliers; various displacing forces - which for our purposes we'll leave at immigration - have made it quite diverse, and with the rise of the strength industry it's becoming less uncommon to see forty-five year old men with no previous training experience step into a rack and get stronger than ever. But five years in (all else equal), they're still not as strong as they would have been at thirty had they started at twenty five. Furthermore, medical technology has done an admirable job of helping us scrubs get older, but I'd be surprised to see that it's responsible for any sort of improvement in markers of physical ability at any given age - or even correlated with some sort of stabilization of condition, aggressively terminal causes of mortality aside - compared to the people who made it to those ages at any other point in history, normalized for confounding factors to the extent possible. I don't think our sixty year olds are much stronger or quicker than whatever robust sexagenarians were stomping around in the the first century BCE, in part because the people who make it there looking and feeling like others twenty years younger will do so with or without modern medicine. Besides, while I readily trust that there's some rich guy in every corner of the SW universe paying to live decades beyond his due, both the development and distribution of technology in that universe varies widely. Some facet of medical care that significantly prolongs the characteristics of youth may only be available to/through fringe elements, and while I'm sure the Jedi Order has the means to procure whatever they want, I'm aware of nothing that suggests they rely heavily on medical care for anything but immediate injury.
But honestly, it's possible he already has been the beneficiary of some medical innovation, and that's why it's only at sixty that he's starting to feel like he's getting older.
This is long, sorry. tl;dr
Due in part to precedent and largely to other stuff, it makes sense that Qui-Gon doesn't feel as vigorous as he used to. Given that his competition here is a twenty two year old born of a hardier species and trained religiously from birth, in context the author may have been charitable. But most importantly, Obi-Wan wins when Qui-Gon breaks his hip. teehee
Originally posted by Eminence
@Moose:
Sixty is old enough to be weakened in pretty much every measurable way. This is especially evident when looking at career athletes in the more rugged sports, a population whose nearly every member shares two relevant things: (1) unusual physical gifts, effectively greater "potential," and (2) through their training the closest thing to a realization of said potential that anyone around is likely to reach. How many of these athletes are putting up personal bests in their late thirties? How many are even competitive by that point? Circumstances (a diluted pool of competitive talent), unrealized talent (for whatever reason [devotion to training, etc.], stars align and it gives the athlete a second wind of sorts), or an unusual resilience of body and the relevant motor skills (primarily a function of genetics and a dearth of unlucky plays [= injuries] in contact/rougher sports, probably also an emphasis on technique and a lower standard for physicality in the lighter ones) are the rare conditions that allow an athlete to excel past his prime, and that prime comes pretty early in life in the grand scheme of things. I'll grant that those lifestyles contribute to the youth/+ disparity even more drastically because of the sustained punishment (joints scraped clean of cartilage, connective tissues torn and soft tissues battered, bones broken, neurological functions dulled, etc.). Even in the general ("Western"😉 population though, metabolic activity starts trending more and more towards catabolism and adiposity as early as your mid-twenties. Obviously this sample size of several hundred million has plenty of statistical outliers; various displacing forces - which for our purposes we'll leave at immigration - have made it quite diverse, and with the rise of the strength industry it's becoming less uncommon to see forty-five year old men with no previous training experience step into a rack and get stronger than ever. But five years in (all else equal), they're still not as strong as they would have been at thirty had they started at twenty five. Furthermore, medical technology has done an admirable job of helping us scrubs get older, but I'd be surprised to see that it's responsible for any sort of improvement in markers of physical ability at any given age - or even correlated with some sort of stabilization of condition, aggressively terminal causes of mortality aside - compared to the people who made it to those ages at any other point in history, normalized for confounding factors to the extent possible. I don't think our sixty year olds are much stronger or quicker than whatever robust sexagenarians were stomping around in the the first century BCE, in part because the people who make it there looking and feeling like others twenty years younger will do so with or without modern medicine. Besides, while I readily trust that there's some rich guy in every corner of the SW universe paying to live decades beyond his due, both the development and distribution of technology in that universe varies widely. Some facet of medical care that significantly prolongs the characteristics of youth may only be available to/through fringe elements, and while I'm sure the Jedi Order has the means to procure whatever they want, I'm aware of nothing that suggests they rely heavily on medical care for anything but immediate injury.But honestly, it's possible he already has been the beneficiary of some medical innovation, and that's why it's only at sixty that he's starting to feel like he's getting older.
This is long, sorry. tl;dr
Due in part to precedent and largely to other stuff, it makes sense that Qui-Gon doesn't feel as vigorous as he used to. Given that his competition here is a twenty two year old born of a hardier species and trained religiously from birth, in context the author may have been charitable. But most importantly, Obi-Wan wins when Qui-Gon breaks his hip. teehee
tl;dr
Welcome back, bro. Try to use some spacing next time. At 3 AM, that makes my eyes bleed.
Originally posted by Stealth MooseThe reason why is because Dooku is a master of Multiple styles, and his main style is Makashi, not nearly as exhausting as Ataru. Yoda wasn't human, and different species have different attributes, Yoda can live for 900 years, maybe the reason Qui-Gon couldn't move like Yoda is because he possibly never used Force Valor or Force Speed.
My mind is still blown that you both uncritically accept this quote and that you think fifty is old enough to be weakened in any truly measurable way. Yoda can augment his puny body to throw Sidious back during parries. Unless Qui-Gon is a Force weakling in comparison, or the Force dies along with your hair follicles, this makes no sense.