Originally posted by OneDumbG0Hey Capt, you have that scan about Wolverine in beserk mode, when he's being monitored.. you know the one that talks about battling super computers?
Wolverine had Colossus, Cyclops, Kitty Pryde, White Queen and Beast helping him in that fight. Fighting all the other Astonishing X-Men does help keep an opponent distracted and create openings. Wolverine does not have the rest of the Astonishing X-Men helping him in this fight. Context helps.Midnighter 8/10.
Argh I hate it when people mess up on the quotes and I have clean it up...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Midnighter's speed and battle reflexes feats outdo Wolverine's.
No they don't. Fact. End of discussion. Move on.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Who says it becomes increasingly more difficult the more skilled your opponent is?
Common sense?
The entire premise of his ability is that he finds a favourable outcome out of the scenarios and tries to force his opponent into playing out that specific scenario. Do you really want to try and argue that being more skilled doesn't make it harder to be dooped into playing into your opponents hand? Seriously?
Being more skilled means you are more likely to adapt to the situation. Say Midnighter's victory rests on his opponent doing a certain block that he is going to take advantage of... well what if his opponent doesn't make the block that leads to Midnighter's victory because he realises it leaves him open to attack? The more skill the opponent the less likely they are to play into a situation where Midnighter is the victor. He can see a million scenarios? Sure. He doesn't win all of those. According to himself he only wins a small fraction of them. The more skill his opponent the harder it would be for him to string them along, in fact, it might be out right impossible.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Blanket statements can work both ways. Wolverine has to be able to put himself into a situation that Midnighter could not edge himself out of or calculate. This becomes increasngly difficult the higher and faster the calculative abilities of the opponent are. And Midnighter's earns gold medals in that category. Midnighter's only been consistently beaten by people who have far outclassed him or found a way around with calculative abilities. Wolverine is neither. And finding 50 to 60 ways of winning any given scenario is bad? Ok. Apparently, Wolverine gets beat 50 to 60 different ways then.
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50-60 is bad when you are running a million scenarios a second.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wolverine has never fought someone who could calculate what would happen with as much proficiency as Midnighter has. Many times that Wolverine has fought a person who legitimately could predict what Wolverine was going to do, Wolverine's been embarassed.
Danger? Cerebro? End of discussion? Knowing you, I somehow doubt it...
With the exclusion of Mr. X (who is faster and more skilled than Midnighter). Wolverine has never had that much trouble with mind readers, telepathy and people who can predict his move. Lady Mandarin wasn't even able to hit Wolverine until he was surprised that she was actually Psylock... and he was severely weakened during that fight. He managed to land hits on both Danger and Cerebro (hits that would have killed Midnighter), both of which would be able to calcuale what Wolverine's plan of attack was much faster and more accurately than Midnighter.
Even when he fought Gorgon (who was vastly superhuman) who could read his thoughts, Wolverine managed to land dozens of hits. Hits that would have put Midnighter down for count, and Wolverine was missing part of his sould when he did it.
And then there are guys Deathstrike, Albert, Cellia and SHIVA who all have on board combat computers, that don't seem to help all that much.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He says he is no faster than Deadpool. He doesn't need to have burst speed. The skill is to simply predict where your opponent isn't going to be looking. And to manuever into that position and strike from there. In fact, when Deadpool pissed him off, Wade actually nailed him with a kick that dazed Daken. Fact is, Midnighter showed himself much more capable of burst speed and Daken's own explanation of his abilities run counter to what you wish them to be. Fact is, he straight up embarassed Wolverine.
If someone is looking straight at you, then you can't be where they aren't looking with out first getting out of their line of sight. He would need to have burst speed to get out of their line of sight with out them noticing that he has moved.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So now it's PIS? Even though with his enhanced strength, speed, reflexes and ability to calculate exactly where it's going to be when he kicks it and ability to calculate exactly how to kick it fails? It's not PIS according to his character history. He can spit his tooth out with more destructive force than a bullet. He is completely conscious when he gets kicked in the head by a herald-class opponent and sent 100's of yards straight horizontally. He can beat the crap out of opponents that can wrestle with Apollo and speed around as fast as Apollo as if they were amateurs. He can get up after his neck is completely snapped and trick a guy into thinking he's dead. He can spin his staff around and block mounted machine gun fire. What PIS? This is who Midnighter is.
How is it PIS?
If you kicked an artillery shell hard enough to stop it's trajectory and send it back to sender... it would explode. Did it explode? No. Hence, PIS. It doesn't make any sense.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He doesn't need to overload Wolverine's healing factor. I just listed three very easy ways that he could take Wolverine out without having to overload his healing factor. The thread did not limit Midnighter to wins only by overloading Wolverine's healing factor. I can understand why you'd want to narrow everyone's reasoning, but it fails.
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Where are these three easy ways for Midnighter to win with out over loading Wolverine's healing factor? 😕
He needs to put Wolverine down for the ten count at the very least. In order to do this he needs to over load Wolverine's healing factor, which isn't something that can be done with class 2 strength and a coat full of clubs. Wolverine rends Midnighter limb form limb.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1) He could stick his staff through his throat and trap him against a wall for a tko.
2) He could spit out his tooth and have it enter Wolverine's brain through either his eye socket, throat cavity or nasal cavity for a ko.
3) He could open wounds up with his staff and shuriken and place dirt into the wounds and prevent them from healing for a tko.
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1) ... What is to stop Wolverine from - you know - pulling out of his throat? Or simply walking down it? Or ripping it out?
2) Unlike a bullet a tooth (assuming it even gets into his brain cavity) would break on the initial contact with the adamantium skull, unlike a bullet which richocets through out the skull carving dozens, and dozens of path ways through the brain. Wolverine has stabbed himself in the brain in the midst of combat when his healing factor wasn't working to jump started it... he wasn't even down for a few seconds. A tooth will do nothing.
3) Laura did that with gravel... and we don't even know if it worked...
Not sure why these didn't show up in the original post. I remember it was messed up when I quoted it. I think this part was included inside of a quote of mine, in your original post and that's why I missed it. Nice work on coming up with three ways not to take Wolverine down though?
Originally posted by srankmissingninA tooth isnot entering Wolverine's brain. the skull is like a bone vault. there are no large openings that arn't covered with bone.
2) Unlike a bullet a tooth (assuming it even gets into his brain cavity) would break on the initial contact with the adamantium skull, unlike a bullet which richocets through out the skull carving dozens, and dozens of path ways through the brain. Wolverine has stabbed himself in the brain in the midst of combat when his healing factor wasn't working to jump started it... he wasn't even down for a few seconds. A tooth will do nothing.
OneDumbG0 put me on ignore so he can't receive this anatomy lesson.. but there are no large holes that aren't blocked by bone
Oh that hole in the bottom? that's where the spinal cord goes. Its blocked by the vertebrae of the spine:
So getting a tooth into the vault is impossible. as is even getting a bullet into the vault.
Originally posted by Creshosk
A tooth isnot entering Wolverine's brain. the skull is like a bone vault. there are no large openings that arn't covered with bone.OneDumbG0 put me on ignore so he can't receive this anatomy lesson.. but there are no large holes that aren't blocked by bone
Oh that hole in the bottom? that's where the spinal cord goes. Its blocked by the vertebrae of the spine:
So getting a tooth into the vault is impossible. as is even getting a bullet into the vault.
I told him that when he said Punisher would shoot Wolverine in the brain, but he said "well, it can happen in the comics apparently."
He also said that by nature of being an Atlatean, Namor can't bleed out from a severed artery... he says some bogus stuff.
Originally posted by srankmissingninYeah. Considering, PIS exists... unless we're to take all of comic's feats seriously, in which case the force and heat from the explosoion of a napalm missle had no effect n wolverine, there is nothing midnighter can do that is greater than that damage. Or dropping him in molten steel which he can climb out of... etc...
I told him that when he said Punisher would shoot Wolverine in the brain, but he said "well, it can happen in the comics apparently."He also said that by nature of being an Atlatean, Namor can't bleed out from a severed artery... he says some bogus stuff.
Originally posted by srankmissingninYeah, he does.
No they don't. Fact. End of discussion. Move on.
Originally posted by srankmissingninI didn't argue that skill doesn't make it harder. But it doesn't negate his ability to a degree that he couldn't win. And Midnighter's only been consistently beaten by foes who far outclass him physically OR who have turned off his powers and NOT through skill. So you're blanket statement doesn't work. Why doesn't it work? For the very same reason you completely avoided my blanket statement about how Wolverine isn't skilled enough to out-do every single scenario that Midnighter is able to calculate.
Being more skilled means you are more likely to adapt to the situation. Say Midnighter's victory rests on his opponent doing a certain block that he is going to take advantage of... well what if his opponent doesn't make the block that leads to Midnighter's victory because he realises it leaves him open to attack? The more skill the opponent the less likely they are to play into a situation where Midnighter is the victor. He can see a million scenarios? Sure. He doesn't win all of those. According to himself he only wins a small fraction of them. The more skill his opponent the harder it would be for him to string them along, in fact, it might be out right impossible....
50-60 is bad when you are running a million scenarios a second.
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You only need 1 winning scenario to win a single fight. Don't be dazzled by the vast reduction in quantity.
Originally posted by srankmissingninDamn straight, because I like reading my comics and discussing context. In the bruhaha against Danger (which is essentially Cerebro), Danger only got hit when she miscalculated her scenarios as she stated on-panel. She only ever fought them in the Danger Room, she never fought them when they were actually in danger. Once she adjusted and recalibrated her processes, she kicked the crap out of all of them. Wolverine was getting stomped on by that time. It's exactly why the X-Men put up a fight at first. Of course, you still ignore how pointless this comparison is, since Wolverine does not have the benefit of his entire team fighting against Midnighter at the same time. Will you concede the pointlessness? Knowing you, I somehow doubt it...
Danger? Cerebro? End of discussion? Knowing you, I somehow doubt it...
Originally posted by srankmissingninWolverine has had trouble with people who predict his moves telepathically. He had trouble with Bloodshadow, until Bloodshadow shot himself in the foot and probed too deeply into Wolverine's psyche. He also had trouble with Rapture in Captain America/Wolverine. The only way he managed to win the first fight was by "not thinking" and the next, by thinking out-loud, "It's over," and tricking her into letting her guard down. As was already mentioned, he got straight up embarassed by Mr. X until he reverted into instinct form and found a way aroud telepathy. I already discussed Danger and context. Unfortunately for Wolverine, he can't get around Midnighter's calculative abilities. They don't rely on reading Wolverine's mind. Just millions of combat scenarios based on his enhanced perception.
With the exclusion of Mr. X (who is faster and more skilled than Midnighter). Wolverine has never had that much trouble with mind readers, telepathy and people who can predict his move. Lady Mandarin wasn't even able to hit Wolverine until he was surprised that she was actually Psylock... and he was severely weakened during that fight. He managed to land hits on both Danger and Cerebro (hits that would have killed Midnighter), both of which would be able to calcuale what Wolverine's plan of attack was much faster and more accurately than Midnighter.
Originally posted by srankmissingninMost of those hits came when Wolverine still had his psi-blockers on. Gorgon only managed to knock off Logan's late in the fight. Not only that, Gorgon also relied on his telepathy, which Wolverine is able to counteract by going with pure ferocity and instinct rather than skill, as he stated himself on-panel. And once again. Doesn't matter against Midnighter. Midnighter's abilities are not telepathic in nature.
Even when he fought Gorgon (who was vastly superhuman) who could read his thoughts, Wolverine managed to land dozens of hits. Hits that would have put Midnighter down for count, and Wolverine was missing part of his sould when he did it.And then there are guys Deathstrike, Albert, Cellia and SHIVA who all have on board combat computers, that don't seem to help all that much.
None of those foes hold a candle to Midnighter. For instance, Shiva itself is simply a program that creates robots. When one is defeated, it creates a new one based off of it's predecessor's mistakes. That is in no way comparable to Midnighter processing millions of scenarios before a fight's even started. This is from Midnighter #7:
"See, I'm one of those jerks who always skips ahead to the last page of a book before he reads it. I find a closing scene I love, then work my way back to the beginning to figure out exactly how it all went down. It's the same way my crazy brain processes every possible outcome for a battle before the first punch is even thrown. So let's cut to the chase, shall we? I've already run through a trillion potential versions of this entire day in my head, including the spectacularly banal conversation we're about to have. And I've settled on the finale that leaves your sick operation toppling like a house of cards...and me making love to my husband."
Originally posted by srankmissingninI already addressed this. Daken himself stated he has no super-speed at all. Plain on-panel evidence presentation > your ignorant bliss. And besides all this, Midnighter has burst speed. So moot point on both ends.
If someone is looking straight at you, then you can't be where they aren't looking with out first getting out of their line of sight. He would need to have burst speed to get out of their line of sight with out them noticing that he has moved.
Originally posted by srankmissingninYou do know that a lot of artillery shells actually don't explode on contact? Misfire, etc.? That's why firing grounds are fenced off, because there is so much spent ordinance lying about that didn't detonate on contact for somoe reason or another. It happened on-panel. And it exploded when it contacted the tank on the rebound. Leagues above anything Wolverine has managed to do with his combat reflexes, speed or strength. Deal with it.
If you kicked an artillery shell hard enough to stop it's trajectory and send it back to sender... it would explode. Did it explode? No. Hence, PIS. It doesn't make any sense.
Originally posted by srankmissingninWolverine's been beaten before when judging under KMC rules without having to overload his healing factor. Just because you can't comprehend this, doesn't mean it can't happen. That sort of narrow self-serving logic phails.
He needs to put Wolverine down for the ten count at the very least. In order to do this he needs to over load Wolverine's healing factor, which isn't something that can be done with class 2 strength and a coat full of clubs. Wolverine rends Midnighter limb form limb.
Originally posted by srankmissingninGorgon incapacitated Wolverine with the first method. He needed several SHIELD soldiers to pull it out. If you look at Midnighter's tooth bullet feat, you'll notice that it had more destructive force than a bullet. Having enamel shatter inside your skull with that amount of destructive force will cause as much damage as a pistol's bullet. And X-23 beat Wolverine using the third method. He was bleeding out, discombobulated and on the ground with X-23 about to pop her claw into his brain.
Nice work on coming up with three ways not to take Wolverine down though?
Originally posted by srankmissingninIt can happen in comics. It happened three times on-panel. Deal with it. You're not dealing with a normal human being. You're dealing with a feral mutant with an already odd bone structure with three on-panel feats showing it. You wish you could dismiss them, but three different writers in three different comic series in the past year depicted it. They're canon and on-panel.
I told him that when he said Punisher would shoot Wolverine in the brain, but he said "well, it can happen in the comics apparently."He also said that by nature of being an Atlatean, Namor can't bleed out from a severed artery... he says some bogus stuff.
Midnighter 8/10.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It can happen in comics. It happened three times on-panel. Deal with it. You're not dealing with a normal human being. You're dealing with a feral mutant with an already odd bone structure with three on-panel feats showing it. You wish you could dismiss them, but three different writers in three different comic series in the past year depicted it. They're canon and on-panel.Midnighter 8/10.
Gotta agree with this 100%, alot of things don't maks sense in comics. It doesn't mean we should start using real life physics and biology to determine the truth. If that were the case, so much more shit would be PIS because of it. I'm not saying real world stuff has no place in comics, but 3 times in the past year? It's cannon.
Suspension of disbelief is more then often the better choice.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Shot him in the brain? I can see one writer stupid enough to think this was possible, but three?
I already addressed this. Daken himself stated he has no super-speed at all. Plain on-panel evidence presentation > your ignorant bliss. And besides all this, Midnighter has burst speed. So moot point on both ends.
You do know that a lot of artillery shells actually don't explode on contact? Misfire, etc.? That's why firing grounds are fenced off, because there is so much spent ordinance lying about that didn't detonate on contact for somoe reason or another. It happened on-panel. And it exploded when it contacted the tank on the rebound. Leagues above anything Wolverine has managed to do with his combat reflexes, speed or strength. Deal with it.
Wolverine's been beaten before when judging under KMC rules without having to overload his healing factor. Just because you can't comprehend this, doesn't mean it can't happen. That sort of narrow self-serving logic phails.
Gorgon incapacitated Wolverine with the first method. He needed several SHIELD soldiers to pull it out. If you look at Midnighter's tooth bullet feat, you'll notice that it had more destructive force than a bullet. Having enamel shatter inside your skull with that amount of destructive force will cause as much damage as a pistol's bullet. And X-23 beat Wolverine using the third method. He was bleeding out, discombobulated and on the ground with X-23 about to pop her claw into his brain.
It can happen in comics. It happened three times on-panel. Deal with it. You're not dealing with a normal human being. You're dealing with a feral mutant with an already odd bone structure with three on-panel feats showing it. You wish you could dismiss them, but three different writers in three different comic series in the past year depicted it. They're canon and on-panel.Midnighter 8/10.
And that contradicts all the other events. I call PIS on it, anfd if you keep insisting on using it, I'll report you for trolling.
Just like phantom Zone was for discarding the numerous ffeats that outweighed it. in the shiva thread.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Shot him in the brain? I can see one writer stupid enough to think this was possible, but three?And that contradicts all the other events. I call PIS on it, anfd if you keep insisting on using it, I'll report you for trolling.
Just like phantom Zone was for discarding the numerous ffeats that outweighed it. in the shiva thread.
Wow cresh.
Wow.
Originally posted by ApolloknightThree times is greater than all the other times it failed?
Gotta agree with this 100%, alot of things don't maks sense in comics. It doesn't mean we should start using real life physics and biology to determine the truth. If that were the case, so much more shit would be PIS because of it. I'm not saying real world stuff has no place in comics, but 3 times in the past year? It's cannon.Suspension of disbelief is more then often the better choice.
Sorry but we don't use minority low showings on the board. that kind of self serving logic that we do phails.
I don't care how much you hate the character, the wishful thinking fallacy is not a valid argument.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Three times is greater than all the other times it failed?Sorry but we don't use minority low showings on the board. that kind of self serving logic that we do phails.
I don't care how much you hate the character, the wishful thinking fallacy is not a valid argument.
I don't hate the character. Its just something is funny to me. 3 times in the past year? Shit changes over time; if it happened once, then ok, it could be PIS, but three? in the past year no less?
Its called trends, and one is happening with that feat.
There comes a point when you have to start accepting trends for what they are, dismiss it with past events all you want, but isn't that what a "new" trend is supposed to do? Change something up, somehow someway?
I think marvel is trying to tell us "Hey, a bullet to the brain will now down logan!"
Dismiss each individual feat if you must, but you can't dismiss the trend of whats been shown.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Nope sorry, it still is in the minority showings...Especially if any two of them were actually the same writer. cause then its just that one stupid writer that knows nothing about anatomy.
I....really am at a lost for words right now. Something in me wants to debate and contiune on, yet this little voice in my head is telling me its pointless.
Intresting.