Thanos with IG vs White Crown Phoenix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is 616 Jean we're dealing with. Her last dealings with reality prior to her premature hatching was in New X-men 150 when she was killed in the past, just prior to HCT.

From her personal perspective HCT would be an unfamiliar future. It went on for 150 years up until New X-men 154, so that is 150 years of timeline.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean cut this timeline off, taking it back to the divergent point(Scotts reaction to Emma) 150 years in the past.

Jean is asked to grow a new future to replace the one she cut away. The fact that the starting point for this exercise is Scotts reaction to Emma, indicates quite clearly that the amount of future that was amputated was indeed 150 years.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is all quite obvious my friend. Lets not be fallacious. Lets debate to establish the truth, not to win over one another 👇

Please can you tell us all exactly why Sublimes removal from reality would automatically result in the disappearance of 150 years of timeline?

Sublime merely existed within that timeline, it was not dependent on him. I hope thats clear now?

She states she amputated the future after we see her extracting Sublime. She states the reason she did this was because of Sublime going rogue. Nowhere in a marvel publication are we told that 150 years of timeline were automatically made non existent as a direct result of Jean removing some bacteria from Beast 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
On panel she says she amputated the future. Verifying her comments on panel she's asked to grow a new future to replace the one she cut away.

In a bio its stated she severed the HCT future. Thats that. You're in no position to debate it never happened.

Did we see on panel the battle between Dr Doom and the Beyonder or did we just see the results? Does that mean you can be fallacious sit back and say where did it happen on panel because you have nothing else to say? ❌ 👇

Its stated on panel and the point supported in a bio. Thats that.

Please answer my questions.

Thank you.

Give me the answer. Straight up. Don't equivocate before answering the question. Just answer it. Then we can discuss your lame excuses like we've been discussing your disjointed narratives and failure to understand linear progression of time and language. And I'd love to see what your next excuse is. Secret Wars? We actually do see the battle between Doom and Beyonder, I have no idea what you're speaking of:

😂

I also find it deliciously ironic that while we've been discussing some random feat of telekinesis... you've switched around what she used her teleinesis on. At first, you asserted she telekinetically summoned an entire universe. Now, she used her telekinesis to amputate an entire future. How did the Phoenix Force's statement about telekinetic control just get ascribed to two different things? Because you wish them to? Either way, stop belaboring the obvious. I've answered your question, answer mine.

Originally posted by KK the Great
I certainly do.

It's called a firm command of the English language.

Again.

1) Jean performs a task.

2) Jean says, "I just performed a task."

Why in the hell would you ever think that indicates two different tasks?

Wait, I know. Because you really, really, really want for your favoritest character to have done an absurd feat.

Why? Because in the context of the scene it doesnt make sense.

So dont try and play smart son. 😉

Would you like to have a go at telling us how removing bacteria from Beast 150 years in the future is going to make 150 years of timeline disappear from existence?

Was Sublime the point of divergence? ❌

Is there precedence for this? ❌

Good luck with finding a reference 👆

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh I see. She's talking about the past in futue tense. That makes as much sense as the Phoneix Force describing a progressively occuring manifestation in the past tense also. This would be consistent if it weren't so utterly wrong.
Extracting Sublime and taking it to the Phoenix Force disinfected the entire future. She replaces a possible future (Earth-15104) for Earth-616 with her actions that nudge Scott's will to love and live.
Putting words into my mouth again. I answered your question. You don't like it, that's fine. Don't substitute my answer for your illogical one.

I did answer your questions. You're incorrectly ascribing 150 years of what would be the past to her, as the future you believe she amputated. As the comic clearly depicts and dialogue describes, the [b]disinfection, surgery and amputation all involve the extraction of Sublime. She is dealing with and speaking about Sublime before, udrign and after her statements and the statement of the Phoenix Force. [/B]

I've already dealt with this and quite clearly ODG. Jean died and then she woke up in the future. From a personal perspective, this would be an unfamiliar future, not a past because she hasnt lived through it. On top of that its a future that never was supposed to exist.

Disinfect and amputate do not come close to meaning the same thing.

Dont try it. 😉

Jean first tried extracting the bacteria and then she later had to amputate because of the extent of the infection. All we see on panel is Jean remove Sublime and hold him in her hand for a few panels. The next page reality disappears as Jean says she had to amputate the future because of Sublime.

It was never stated that the future was amputated as a result of the extraction. Thats your assumption and it doesnt make sense.

Extracting Sublime from Beast did not automatically result in the disppearance of 150 years of timeline.

If you believe that by extracting Sublime she amputated the HCT future and made it disappear then please can you explain how?

Please can you show where there is precedence for this?

Your previous attempts fell completely flat because each of them involved the manipulation of a past event resulting in a divergent future.

What youre suggesting is that Jean removing bacteria from the future somehow eradicated the timeline all the way back to the point of divergence. 😬

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And you still haven't answered the simplest question of all: "Where in the comic did Jean perform this amazing, heretofore, never seen (and never required) universal/temporal feat of telekinesis? Which panel? Pick one."

Give me the answer. Straight up. Don't equivocate before answering the question. Just answer it. Then we can discuss your lame excuses like we've been discussing your disjointed narratives and failure to understand linear progression of time and language. And I'd love to see what your next excuse is. Secret Wars? We actually do see the battle between Doom and Beyonder, I have no idea what you're speaking of:

She extracted Sublime and nothing happened, she holds it for a few panels. After that point she states she had to amputate the future and we see reality disappearing as she converses with the Consciousness.

Maybe the fade out of reality was the artists way of depicting it. Who knows?

The fact that she states she did it, the Consciousness remarks on her having done it and the bio confirms she did it means your incessant bickering on the matter is inconsequential. Officially im supported. Your opinion doesnt even factor in.

I updated my post with regards to your Beyonder comment. We never saw Doom defeat Beyonder. We just saw the result. We dont know the ins and outs of how it was achieved, we are just informed of the results.

Does that mean it didnt happen? No because subsequent pages and bios confirm the point.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I find it ironic that while we've been discussing some random feat of telekinesis... you've switched around what she used her teleinesis on. At first, you asserted she telekinetically summoned an entire universe. Now, she used her telekinesis to amputate an entire future. How did the Phoenix Force's statement about telekinetic control just get ascribed to two different things? Because you wish them to? Either way, stop belaboring the obvious. I've answered your question, answer mine.

I havent switched around anything. I'm not suddenly denying that she materialised the universe am i? So what are you talking about?

You dont believe she used telekinesis specifically to amputate the future? Fine.

She did however amputate the future as confirmed on panel and by bio.

You have not answered my question at all. You have given me no answer as to how the removal of Sublime can remove a timeline. What you've done is reiterated how you think amputation and disinfection are the same thing and said you think my interpretation is illogical.

Yeah thats answering it. 🙄

I however have answered your question. Come again.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I've already dealt with this and quite clearly ODG. Jean died and then she woke up in the future. From a personal perspective, this would be an unfamiliar future, not a past because she hasnt lived through it. On top of that its a future that never was supposed to exist.

Disinfect and amputate do not come close to meaning the same thing.

Dont try it. 😉

Jean first tried extracting the bacteria and then she later had to amputate because of the extent of the infection. All we see on panel is Jean remove Sublime and hold him in her hand for a few panels. The next page reality disappears as Jean says she had to amputate the future because of Sublime.

It was never stated that the future was amputated as a result of the extraction. Thats your assumption and it doesnt make sense.

Extracting Sublime from Beast did not automatically result in the disppearance of 150 years of timeline.

If you believe that by extracting Sublime she amputated the HCT future and made it disappear then please can you explain how?

Please can you show where there is precedence for this?

Your previous attempts fell completely flat because each of them involved the manipulation of a past event resulting in a divergent future.

What youre suggesting is that Jean removing bacteria from the future somehow eradicated the timeline all the way back to the point of divergence. 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
She extracted Sublime and nothing happened, she holds it for a few panels. After that point she states she had to amputate the future and we see reality disappearing as she converses with the Consciousness.

Maybe the fade out of reality was the artists way of depicting it. Who knows?

The fact that she states she did it, the Consciousness remarks on her having done it and the bio confirms she did it means your incessant bickering on the matter is inconsequential. Officially im supported. Your opinion doesnt even factor in.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I updated my post with regards to your Beyonder comment. We never saw Doom defeat Beyonder. We just saw the result. We dont know the ins and outs of how it was achieved, we are just informed of the results.

Does that mean it didnt happen? No because subsequent pages and bios confirm the point.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I havent switched around anything. I'm not suddenly denying that she materialised the universe am i? So what are you talking about?

You dont believe she used telekinesis specifically to amputate the future? Fine.

She did however amputate the future as confirmed on panel and by bio.

You have not answered my question at all. You have given me no answer as to how the removal of Sublime can remove a timeline. What you've done is reiterated how you think amputation and disinfection are the same thing and said you think my interpretation is illogical.

Yeah thats answering it. 🙄

I however have answered your question. Come again.

Lets break this down, because the long, convoluted back and forths are continually allowing you to avoid answering the questions i pose whilst at the same time allowing you to come off looking like you know what you're talking about 🙂

As such i will focus on one of my unanswered queries at a time and then i will move on to the next when i have received an answer. 😖hifty:

The Here Comes Tomorrow storyline was about an apocalyptic future that should never have come to pass. The story was about finding out what spawned this future and about overcoming it and returning the title back to the present.

In real world terms, a disinfection does not equate to an amputation. They tend to both be steps within the surgery process. However one does not equal the other in any way, shape or form. With that in mind, can you please tell us how by removing bacteria from Beast, Jean was also amputating the future?

The future was not dependent on Sublime. Dont try and run your lines on me ( " I do not believe that 150 years of events that have already occurred = future" ). The whole story was about this future that should never occurred. Of course by "future" they meant the 150 years of timeline that had passed following the divergent point(Scotts reaction to Emma).

That is why following the stated "amputation" after Jean was told on panel that she needed to "grow a new future, to replace the one you cut away" the starting point, the stump from which she had to replace the "old" future was Scotts reaction to Emma 150 years in the past.

That proves that the previous future that was in need of replacing, was the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline.

So with that in mind, can you please let us know exactly how removing bacteria from Beast resulted in the disappearance of 150 years of timeline.

The timeline was not dependent on Sublime. It was spawned by Scotts decision 150 years in the past. So how can removing bacteria 150 years AFTER that decision, result in the disappearance of 150 years of timeline.

Once again, where is the precedence for this?

I eagerly await your response.

Thank you 👆

Want to know why I attributed the amputation to telekinesis? Because during Morrison’s 40+ issue run on New X-men, that was given as the primary power of the Phoenix and was the one focused on throughout to achieve the vast majority of her feats.

New X-men 154 the same issue:

Page 4

"The ultimate mutation"

"Telekinetic godhood in a jar"

Sublime injects himself with Phoenix traits and what does he state to be the power of the Phoenix? "Telekinetic godhood"

Page 14

"All matter responds to my slightest whim"

“My new senses”

And of course page 21 “telekinetic control of all of those atoms”

Which the Consciousness confirmed to be in reference to the universe in her hands and Jeans bio verified Jeans feat by stating she can manipulate the atomic structure of an entire universe.

New X-men 153 pages 3 and 4

“You are undergoing radical atomic deconstruction”

Phoenix atomizes the Termids and the landscape telekinetically

New X-men 150 page 2

“You did it Logan, you released the Phoenix Consciousness. I used the disintegrating asteroid and the Suns energy to build and power our transport. Total telekinetic control of matter…”

New X-men 148 page 13:

Now I’m learning to move molecules around and expand my senses beyond all boundaries”

New X-men 141 page 17

“I could maybe fuse the diamond molecules together telekinetically”

New X-men 133

“Its got a really weird molecular ringtone”

Here with her expanding telekinesis, Jean analyses the molecular composition of the bullet

New X-men 128

Jean talks to the professor about the development of her telekinesis, before the Phoenix takes over:

”Everybody at the school seems terribly worried about my expanding telekinetic senses.”

“It’s like I’m seeing more of everything. But it just melts together. It’s not just sight or sound…it’s all of my senses at once, sort of rippling out through my surroundings. “

”Your minds ability to precisely operate matter extends far beyond your physical body and deep into your environment”

Jeans telekinesis has expanded to the point where she it’s become an extension of her senses as opposed to just a tool as per other telekinetics. She can feel through her telekinesis.

“Oh my god. I can feel your pulse through the stainless steel.”

”Jean….Telekinetic sensitivity this extreme is known as the manifestation of the Phoenix by neuro-mystical surgeons of the Shi’ar space empire”

As you can see, the focus throughout New X-men was Jeans expanding telekinesis and the growing senses she was experiencing as a result of this. Cosmic scale telekinesis is an attribute of the Phoenix.

Jean amputated the HCT future as per her comments and as verified by later comments from characters and by the bio stating that she severed the future.

Nowhere is it stated that the amputation of the future was as a result of removing Sublime.

If you don’t believe that telekinesis was used, despite the precedence shown throughout the run, then whatever. Jean used one of her powers to do it and the bio confirms that she did it.

I don’t want to hear that disinfection and amputation are interchangeable phrases because they’re not. They are both steps within the surgery process. They mean different things.

It appears the disinfection was not enough; therefore she went on to amputate the future. Her comments and the artistic depiction support this.

She extracted Sublime and had him for many panels in her hand. The future was still intact for two pages:

As HCT starts to fade out , she says Sublime was rogue and that she had to amputate the future:

That is following the extraction. The fade out and Jeans shift to her home dimension could have been the artists way of depicting this act. Either way there is a bio stating that she severed the future, so Marvel has decided it was. Marvel officially recognizes she did. Nowhere does it recognize that by removing Sublime, 150 years of timeline that was not dependent on Sublime, disappeared.

There is no precedence in a marvel publication for what your interpretation states.

It is confirmed by both the Consciousness and Quentin Quire and the bio that following Jeans comments about amputating the future, she did actually amputate the future.

Jean was told she needed to grow a new future to replace the one she cut away, confirming the act.

The stump she had to grow the replacement from was Scott’s reaction to Emma, confirming that the future that was cut away was Here Comes Tomorrow.

So as per your interpretation, once again, please tell us all how you believe removing bacteria from Beast 150 years after the divergence point(the event that created HCT) resulted in that timeline disappearing?

Good luck my friend. 👆

Well, you've certainly proven that Jean does, in fact, possess telekinesis.

Perhaps eventually you'll get around to explaining what the hell you think "amputate the future" even means, exactly.

Originally posted by KK the Great
Well, you've certainly proven that Jean does, in fact, possess telekinesis.

Perhaps eventually you'll get around to explaining what the hell you think "amputate the future" even means, exactly.

Means? That through the power of the Force she cut off that future from 616.

Your shambolic interpretation regarding 150 years of timeline disappearing after she extracted bacteria from Beast is laughable and unlike mine, unsupported on panel or in the bios.

Good day to you 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Means? That through the power of the Force she cut off that future from 616.

Meaning?

She used telekenesis on...what, exactly?

Your shambolic interpretation regarding 150 years of timeline disappearing after she extracted bacteria from Beast is laughable and unlike mine, unsupported on panel or in the bios.

Let's get one thing out of the way: I couldn't care less about bios or handbooks. If your argument can't be supported by the comic, then I don't much care how some other third party described it in a handbook.

Originally posted by KK the Great
Meaning?

She used telekenesis on...what, exactly?

Im assuming she used telekinesis because thats the power Morrison focused on throughout his run. Whether it was TK or not, its something she did in her role as Phoenix.

She states she amputated the future, the Consciousness and Quentin Quire confirm this with their comments. The Handbooks support this by stating that Jean severed the future from reality.

Jean performed the feat whether it was through TK or not.

I've covered this in my posts. Read them and understand.

Originally posted by KK the Great
[BLet's get one thing out of the way: I couldn't care less about bios or handbooks. If your argument can't be supported by the comic, then I don't much care how some other third party described it in a handbook. [/B]

But it is supported on panel. Whats even greater is that its also supported by another official Marvel publication, the Marvel handbook.

Can you show where in any Marvel pblication its stated that as a direct result of removing bacteria from Beast, 150 years of timeline automatically got amputated? 😬

Its good that there's been a shift of focus from the universe in the hand feat. That speaks volumes. 😂

You aint winning on this issue either 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im assuming she used telekinesis because thats the power Morrison focused on throughout his run.

That's not the question I asked.

I granted that she used telekinesis to perform this amazing feat.

My question: On what did she use her telekinesis?

Explain to me, in excruciating detail and in a way which makes logical sense, how one goes about amputating the future.

If she lifts an apple with telekinesis, she applied her telekinesis to the apple. More specifically, to the physical molecules. Explain this amputation feat similarly. What does she apply the telekinetic force to?

If you're going to continue citing the phrase as though it has actual inherent meaning, then surely you can explain what that meaning is.

Originally posted by KK the Great
That's not the question I asked.

I granted that she used telekinesis to perform this amazing feat.

My question: On what did she use her telekinesis?

Explain to me, in excruciating detail and in a way which makes logical sense, how one goes about amputating the future.

If she lifts an apply with telekinesis, she applied her telekinesis to the apple. More specifically, to the physical molecules.

If you're going to continue citing the phrase as though it has actual inherent meaning, then surely you can explain what that meaning is.

And lay down for me the inner workings of Galactus' power?

Just how did LT stop the IG from working with just a wave of his hand?

How can Storm create force fields out of wind pressure?

This is comic book science we're dealing with here. None of us know exactly how characters perform the vast majority of their feats because these comics do not subscribe to real world science. Therefore we can't know. They are comics, fantasy.

Just because you do not understand or cannot comprehend how something occurred based on your real world perspective does not give you the right to say that it didnt happen. Especially when its stated on panel it did , confirmed by other characters and further confirmed by another official source...the handbooks.

Think it sounds stupid? Cool. Alot of feats are stupid and impossible to comprehend based on our real world way of thinking. But thats exactly why they are comics and not non-fiction.

Originally posted by KK the Great
It's been done.

Over and over again.

"Amputate the future" is just purple prose. I realize that you're very impressed by it. That's the point of purple prose. It sounds impressive by design.

But you don't get to upgrade the feat just to match your level of enthusiasm over the purple prose used to describe it.

She removed Sublime. In doing so, she effectively amputated the future. Removing Sublime is how she amputated the future. The feats are one and the same. Removing Sublime doesn't become more impressive just because she described it in an overblown, flowery manner.

Wait so the future was not amputated? Or did Jean Simply remove Sublime, leaving the entire time stream intact?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And lay down for me the inner workings of Galactus' power?

Sorry, no.

I don't need to explain how omnipotence works.

But if you're going to insist beyond reason that "amputate the future" has some inherent meaning--when it plainly does not--then you'd better be damn sure you can explain what that meaning is. Otherwise your argument is dead as Dillinger. We've explained exactly how she amputated the future, but you continue to say "but it said she amputated the future!" as though it disproves our explanation.

Answer the question: If one were to "amputate the future" with telekinesis, on what would one apply telekinetic force?

Telekinesis isn't like omnipotence or a vague "power cosmic" type of energy that can't be explained simply. Telekinesis is relatively easy to comprehend. You're exerting influence over physical matter with the mind. On what would jean exert her telekinesis in order to amputate the future?

Originally posted by id369
Wait so the future was not amputated? Or did Jean Simply remove Sublime, leaving the entire time stream intact?

"Amputate the future" is nothing but a flowery, poetic way of describing the standard butterfly effect conceit. She removed Sublime, thereby "amputating" the future. She then nudged Scott, thereby fixing the future.

This is undeniably what the comic portrays.