Thanos with IG vs White Crown Phoenix

Started by GalacticStorm85 pages
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[b]2) I know there is precedence for timelines being destroyed. I'm referring to the fact that there is no precedent for telekinesis to be used on time or a timeline or a future. Don't twist my statements to avoid arguing the issue. You already conceded that there has been no precedent for it in prior posts. Your facetious ignorance doesn't change or rehabilitate that fact.[/B]

Irrelevant. She says she did it, its artistically represented and that was good enough for Marvel who went on to refer to her severing the future from reality. Simple.

There’s a first time for everything ODG. Just because you cant comprehend how she did it, doesn’t mean that it never happened according to continuity. There are no courses in comic book science.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[b]3) The scene CAN be interpreted that way. But it's yet another speculative attenuation that runs contrary to simple perception and orderinig of prose and art. I'm not saying that it is absolutely and ultimately clear your interpretation is contradicted. I'm just saying that it is laughable and it sucks compared to a simpler and plainer interpretation. You can't change that. I'm not going to prove a negative. You have to show that it is more likely than not, that Jean literally meant she used telekinesis to cut the future away. I already gave you several reasons why it is less likely and you can't equivocate around that. You merely rely on the suspension of disbelief, which as a debator in an argument, equates to self-serving logic, "It doesn't make sense to you and you have reasons why, but you can't prove that it is beyond the realm of possibility, so just accept it over your own, less attenuated interpretation." Yeah? No sale.[/B]

It isn’t contrary to scene ordering at all as I have explained above. She tried to go about her mission by removing Sublime from reality, you see her removing the colony from Beast and yet after that stating that the infestation was too great so she had to amputate the whole future. Disinfection is to remove or cleanse an area of infection. Jeans actions saw her achieve this end, hence the Consciousness’ acknowledgement.

Your “simpler” interpretation:

1)Doesn’t account for the disappearance of 150 years of timeline

2) Doesn’t account for the non appearance of a divergent timeline which would have arisen if Jean merely changed the past without having removed the future first.

3) Unlike mine isn’t confirmed as the case by a supporting official source(Your one handbook scan contradicts on panel scenes and the scene is subsequently clarified in a later entry)

The IG wielder wins

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How many times do I have to explain this? At this point, you're feigning ignorance of what I've already explained in order to concoct some nonsensical argument and then attribute it to me. Why? Just to simply act as if my interpretation has a gaping hole and yours is superior. Christ. Wasting space and expanding this thread by pulling these facetious manuevers doesn't inject your assertions with substance or infuse minw with contradictions. DON'T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. At this point, all you're doing now is willfully ignoring my asserted core proposition: You're cherry-picking a single piece of Jean's statement and selectively ignoring context of conversations and lack of support in order to justify you reading said statement in it's absolute most literally fantastical way possible. It's purple prose. Amputating the future is referring to the extraction of Sublime. As supported on-panel and the handbook and certainly not contradicted. Anywhere.

As I’ve just clearly illustrated all of this waffle was for naught. My interpretation covers any of the discrepancies you perceived however yours is left with a number of gaping holes. You thought I ignored the order of statements presented? You were incorrect. It’s all about interpretation and you were unwilling to stray from your rigid perspective and even entertain the possibility of different interpretations.

You relied on a single handbook scan which didn’t give the full picture, whilst ignoring later entries which gave clarification. Yours stated that Phoenix disinfected reality by extracting Sublime from reality. However on panel, you see Phoenix extract Sublime, then on subsequent panels you see her say the infestation was so bad that she had to amputate the future. That’s not equating the two, that’s her describing an additional course of action she took. How on Earth would you think that removing bacteria from 150 years after that reality was created would nullify that whole timeline? The Phoenix said “disinfection successful” because as per her mission Jean had removed the bacteria from the site of infection. Just explain how the two could be equated when for a start the definition of the words is completely different and the result of just removing bacteria doesn’t fit in with what actually happened.

The handbook entry you swore by never gave the full picture, however omission doesn’t equate to something not being the case, as a far more recent entry (that I posted above) went on to clarify that Jean actually severed that future from reality. The same point is made on marvunapp:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/mkraancrystal.htm

Your other point was what? Why would she refer to 150 years of the past as the future? Easily explained. Because she never lived through these years. They weren’t her past, she’d come straight from current day 616 to this apocalyptic future, so as far as she was concerned she was dealing with a future that should never be. Hence why she referred to it as the future, along with the Consciousness and the two handbook entries.

As shown by the appearances in the current (or for them the past) of characters like Cable and Rachel, the future is already happening in terms of Marvel comics. However as established in continuity you can’t avoid a future by merely changing the past. This makes sense because the various timelines are mapped out like a tree with 616 being the main stump:

All of these futures are possibilities for 616.Events in 616 are required to happen at a certain time and place to make them possible and if those events occur, then that future possibility becomes actuality for 616. If those events don’t take place then those futures are no longer possibilities for 616.

Because of this structure, you cannot change the future by merely changing a past event. Thinking back to the tree simile, you can’t grow a tree in a tree, you can however cause a branch to sprout off from the main trunk. A divergent timeline.

The event that caused HCT was Scott’s reaction to Emma. If Jean merely changed this event then HCT would still exist as a divergent timeline and Sublime would still be a threat within reality. We know this didn’t happen so that tells us that Jean didn’t just extract Sublime and change the past. Jean cut the main trunk back to the point of divergence which was Scott’s reaction to Emma. She wounded the continuum, hence the Consciousness’ requests for Jean to treat the “patient” in the “hospital” to “Heal wound make better future grow quick”.

Within the crystal as the Consciousness refers to how manipulating that amount of atoms isn’t easy, Jean is shown over the panels to materialise in her hand what we’re told is a badly wounded universe, which we know to be 616. The universe she cut away a future from:

The latest Jean Grey bio also refers to her newly shown ability to manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale:

As Jean holds the universe in her palm she hears words from 616’s past:

“Every diamond has its flaw”

New X-men 119

“Gus was a good dog”

New X-men 123

“Are these words from the future”

New X-men 128

Jean is then told “If you want it to grow a new future to replace the one you just cut away, you have to water it with your hearts blood”

This is further evidence that Jean amputated the future with her Phoenix powers. Jean cut away the future back to the point of divergence and here she is being asked to water the universe with her hearts blood. In other words to let go of Scott and nudge him to live with Emma and be happy.

She does this: “Live Scott. Live”

Just to summarise. Phoenix removed Sublime from reality however it was so badly infested she had to use her power to completely cut off that future as she stated. We see this future disappearing on panel and you have a number of references from Jean and other characters referring to how she cut off the future of the universe. Jean is then instructed to heal the patient in the hospital and she telekinetically materialises 616 within the palm of her hand. She is again given advice about how to heal the patient and then she reaches into the reality and alters the event which caused HCT.

The latest M’kraan bio refers to how Jean severed the future from the multiverse before changing the past. The point is also on marvunapp. I am officially supported.

If Jean merely removed Sublime from reality and then changed the past she would have created a divergent future. This never happened. The number of references on panel and within the latest bio state that she cut off the future of the universe.

The discrepancies brought up about my interpretation have been answered. We both know that you cannot explain those I have highlighted in yours, so let’s just leave it at that.

It was fun. 😉

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
The IG wielder wins
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
The IG wielder wins

Please. I wasnt posting for your benefit. 😉

Im just responding to a previously unanswered post of ODG's.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Please. I wasnt posting for your benefit. 😉

Who said you were?

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Who said you were?

Im merely responding to the disregard showed by posting 30 seconds after me lol. You hadnt read anything and thats your choice. Ive made my point and it wasnt for your benefit.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im merely responding to the disregard showed by posting 30 seconds after me lol. You hadnt read anything and thats your choice. Ive made my point and it wasnt for your benefit.

who

You and I both know that Thanos w/ the IG would stomp WCP.

... or do you?

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
who

You and I both know that Thanos w/ the IG would stomp WCP.

... or do you?

I dont think so. Not given current continuity. And thats my point. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont think so. Not given current continuity. And thats my point. 🙂

👇

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
👇

And youre entitled to disagree. But based on what? I can back up my viewpoints and theyre not determined by whats popular on the forum 🙂

Ohh God 😉

GS your starting this again

Originally posted by kgkg
Ohh God 😉

GS your starting this again

You know i love it! 😄

Come on bring it on, just like the old days lol

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You know i love it! 😄

Come on bring it on, just like the old days lol

I see lots of post regarding the Phoenix Force

So i take it PF > IG is your stand?

Thanos, easily.

Originally posted by kgkg
I see lots of post regarding the Phoenix Force

So i take it PF > IG is your stand?

Current continuity states that the Infinity Gems are conduits for the power of the Big Bang.

Phoenix is the Big Bang amongst other things.

The highest feat a wielder of the IG has achieved is to beat down the abstracts(unless someone can tell me something greater)

Phoenix casually amputates timelines and can manipulate a reality in the palm of her hand.

The same reality the IG draws its power from as per current continuity. The same reality that the abstracts are facets of.

In terms of highest feats and going by nature, the Force wins.

Most people would ignore all of this just due to reputation. 😬

Whatever.