Originally posted by OneDumbG0
👆 I absolutely agree with this.Incomplete IG > Quasar trying to use the UN.
The significance of turning the UN's power back on Quasar, whether it's screwing with his mind to shoot it upon himself, transporting Quasar spatially into the effects of nullification or simply redirecting the focused blast of power back onto Quasar does not suggest that the Infinity Gauntlet's level of power surpasses the UN's power to reset the entire Marvel Multiverse.
Agreed.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But I still pretty much disagree with everything you suggest regarding Here Comes Tomorrow, GS. You tried to convince me that Jean accomplished one of the greatest feats in comics, i.e. telekinetically manifesting an entire universe in her hands and telekinetically cutting away a future... off-panel. But your use of purple prose, your stretching of the limits of an isolated statement, all while disregarding context results in a ruination of your assertions.
facepalm Already addressed:
Fair enough if you disagree, youre welcome to however Marvel didnt and they supported my interpretation on both notions. They supported the fact that Jean amputated the future from 616, not only were there multiple supporting statements other Jeans own, but the fact that a divergent reality wasnt created as a result of Jeans tamperings with the past says it all. That was the significance of her amputating the future. Regardless the latest handbook entry on the matter states she severed the future from the multiverse. So lets leave it at that.
With regards to the materialising the universe in her hand, it happens after she is told to treat the patient in the hospital and we see what we were later told was the universe slowly materialise in her hands as the Consciousness talked about how Jeans control over all of those atoms isnt childs play.
Marvel supported my interpretation of this by saying Jean now has the ability to manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale.
Agree with it all or dont, my interpretation is feasible and supported through multiple handbook entries. The fact that yours leave questions that you cant answer should say it all. 😬
But this was a very good debate we had though. I forgot about it!
Originally posted by quanchi112facepalm
Just because something affects the multiverse instead of the universe that doesn't translate into being more powerful imo.
Originally posted by EnyalusDiverting power, even stealing it for yourself is no indication that one's scope of power is clearly greater than the other. That's a false cause fallacy.
If she could've hit him, yeah. Obviously. She can take his power at will. I'd say that would give her the advantage in a one-on-one battle, wouldn't you?
When you take away the strippings, all Black Alice did was divert the Spectreforce into herself. That feat does not suggest that Black Alice on her own is a Multiversal entity superior to and capable of greater feats than God's Spirit of Vengeance.
By analogy, using the diverting of power rationale to conclude thusly leads you to believe that the Infinity Gauntlet is capable of feats superior to the UN's, namely resetting the Multiverse. Unfortunately, that relies on the same false cause fallacy as Black Alice > Spectre. It doesn't work.
Originally posted by Enyalus
All the universes. Every one of them. The power of all of those universes, all energy and matter, are Eternity's power.
Nope. You need to remember that Eternity is a timeline on the multiversal structure, so the universes forming and closing were what Dormammu witnessed as he travelled through Eternity. However if you read Eternitys latest handbook entry and you go through continuity to find the most consistent presentation of Eternity, you will find he is very much just the sentience of the universe that embodies all along the chronal axis.
Eternity doesnt power universes, he doesnt even power a universe. The Big Bang powers universes and Eternity is the embodiment of the resultant universe. The power of the Big Bang runs through him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Diverting power, even stealing it for yourself is no indication that one's scope of power is clearly greater than the other. That's a false cause fallacy.When you take away the strippings, all Black Alice did was divert the Spectreforce into herself. That feat does not suggest that Black Alice on her own is a Multiversal entity superior to and capable of greater feats than God's Spirit of Vengeance.
By analogy, using the diverting of power rationale to conclude thusly leads you to believe that the Infinity Gauntlet is capable of feats superior to the UN's, namely resetting the Multiverse. Unfortunately, that relies on the same false cause fallacy as Black Alice > Spectre. It doesn't work.
No? When Dr. Doom stole Galactus' power, he was greater than Galactus. When Korvac stole Galactus' power, he was also greater than Galactus. And both of them did so with the aid of tech. Black Alice did this under her own power. Totally stripping Spectre and leaving him powerless. Yeah, she's more powerful than Spectre and would've easily won if she could've struck him...but she couldn't, because besides the power, all he is is an empty spirit.
IG makes you God of everything underneath the LT. That's superior to what the UN does. The UN won't beat the IG. Neither does the PF. Thanos wins this thread. 😬
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Odg I ask you a question then. Since the ig can't affect the multiverse and Odin can does that mean he is more powerful than the ig?
facepalm
Diverting power, even stealing it for yourself is no indication that one's scope of power is clearly greater than the other. That's a false cause fallacy.When you take away the strippings, all Black Alice did was divert the Spectreforce into herself. That feat does not suggest that Black Alice on her own is a Multiversal entity superior to and capable of greater feats than God's Spirit of Vengeance.
By analogy, using the diverting of power rationale to conclude thusly leads you to believe that the Infinity Gauntlet is capable of feats superior to the UN's, namely resetting the Multiverse. Unfortunately, that relies on the same false cause fallacy as Black Alice > Spectre. It doesn't work.
Ig wrecks the un and a later story having the un reset the multiverse doesn't later mean that the un is more than the ig nowadays.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm👆
Agreed.
Originally posted by GalacticStormYou avoided my question of how the flaring Phoenix doesn't disintegrate the materialized universe, if that is what you really think happened. I've already addressed your other points, you're taking the order of events and speech incorrectly:
With regards to the materialising the universe in her hand, it happens after she is told to treat the patient in the hospital and we see what we were later told was the universe slowly materialise in her hands as the Consciousness talked about how Jeans control over all of those atoms isnt childs play.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Uh no. His comment is clearly referring to something she had already accomplished. Her telekinetic extraction of Sublime, which itself was referred to as the "surgery" and "disinfection." After praising her and comforting her about that feat, something starts manifesting itself in her hands. Why is he speaking in the past tense to something that hasn't occurred yet? She doesn't even know what's in her hands until they tell her. If she was telekinetically summoning all the atoms of the universe, how'd she not know what was materializing in her hands?Once again:
[b]1)
Jean pulls Sublime out of Beast with her telekinesis.
2) Jean asks, "Surgery complete?"
3) Jean travels to the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force tells her that the "disinfection is complete," and she hands Sublime over to it to seal his influence away.
4) The other Phoenixes gather around her and tell her, "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." PAST TENSE.5) THEN the universe begins to manifest itself in her hands.
5a) She asks what's in her hands.
5b) The Phoenix Force and the Phoenixes let her know what it is.
6) She realizes she needs to nudge Scott in order for such a future to not repeat itself in Earth-616 and the phoenix manifests itself on top of the universe in her hands. Which is all symbolic.[/B]
Originally posted by GalacticStormCan't be bothered to tredge up all the old links. What source by Marvel are you referring to? It better not be the unnofficial fan-made www.marvelunapp.com again.
Marvel supported my interpretation of this by saying Jean now has the ability to manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale.Agree with it all or dont, my interpretation is feasible and supported through multiple handbook entries. The fact that yours leave questions that you cant answer should say it all. 😬
But this was a very good debate we had though. I forgot about it!
I've answered all questions. Start with one question I didn't answer.
I'm pretty much Grant Morrison'ed to death and it's nobody's fault but my own. argue
I have a question for GS or ODG that neither has answered especially GS.
GS give me a list of all the abstracts or foes who Phoenix has beaten? I'm looking to see if as you claim phoenix has all the victories against all these abstracts and foes. Since of course she could just disintegrate all foes at a atomic level 🙄
Originally posted by EnyalusYou're equivocating. You suggest that if the IG can divert the UN's power against it's user, than the IG's power is greater than the UN, the IG must be multiversal then. Black Alice diverted the Spectreforce agaist Spectre's will, Black Alice's own power is not greater than the Spectre's.
No? When Dr. Doom stole Galactus' power, he was greater than Galactus. When Korvac stole Galactus' power, he was also greater than Galactus. And both of them did so with the aid of tech. Black Alice did this under her own power. Totally stripping Spectre and leaving him powerless. Yeah, she's more powerful than Spectre and would've easily won if she could've struck him...but she couldn't, because besides the power, all he is is an empty spirit.
Originally posted by EnyalusSays who? Adam Warlock never said that, neither did Thanos, nor Living Tribunal, nor Eternity. It's only been suggested that the IG, can lay waste to this reality in a confrontation with the Living Tribunal. Who cares. The UN can reset all realities on a multiversal scale, as seen on-panel, as confirmed by Reed and Roma. IG can beat Quasar, who sucks at using the UN. IG never did anything multiversal on the scale that the UN did.
IG makes you God of everything underneath the LT. That's superior to what the UN does. The UN won't beat the IG. Neither does the PF. Thanos wins this thread. 😬
Originally posted by quanchi112Never said the IG can't affect an alternate reality. I said the Infinity Gauntlet never affects the Marvel Multiverse all at once. Odin has no feat on the scale of the UN either. UN > Odin. That's easy to conclude.
Odg I ask you a question then. Since the ig can't affect the multiverse and Odin can does that mean he is more powerful than the ig?Ig wrecks the un and a later story having the un reset the multiverse doesn't later mean that the un is more than the ig nowadays.
IG wrecked Quasar, who sucked at using the UN. That doesn't mean IG > UN at all, otherwise Black Alice > Spectre. False cause fallacy.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Not to mention that it was 5 cosmic cubes which created that second universe. And Magus tells us the IG is superior. Hell, the IG was superior to 30 cosmic cubes.
Cosmic cubes arent all equal in power and theyre not all universal scale manipulators. So that isnt conclusive to be honest 😬
Originally posted by EnyalusI don't know about Korvac, but Doom never did anything Galactus couldn't, so how was he greater?
No? When Dr. Doom stole Galactus' power, he was greater than Galactus. When Korvac stole Galactus' power, he was also greater than Galactus. And both of them did so with the aid of tech. Black Alice did this under her own power. Totally stripping Spectre and leaving him powerless. Yeah, she's more powerful than Spectre and would've easily won if she could've struck him...but she couldn't, because besides the power, all he is is an empty spirit.IG makes you God of everything underneath the LT. That's superior to what the UN does. The UN won't beat the IG. Neither does the PF. Thanos wins this thread. 😬
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're equivocating. You suggest that if the IG can divert the UN's power against it's user, than the IG's power is greater than the UN, the IG must be multiversal then.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Black Alice diverted the Spectreforce agaist Spectre's will, Black Alice's own power is not greater than the Spectre's.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Says who? Adam Warlock never said that, neither did Thanos, nor Living Tribunal, nor Eternity.
The IG never reset or destroyed the multiverse because...there was never a need to? So of course it wouldn't have something like it as a feat. But we do know the IG is multiversal. We also know that no abstract save for the LT came even close to the IG's power.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I know, but you see the problem we have here. Odin has affected the multiverse before and was shown to be nothing when compared to the Celestials in the destroyer armor. I have never seen any Celestial from the fourth host there affect the multiverse yet we know their power level shits all over Odin's.
You're equivocating. You suggest that if the IG can divert the UN's power against it's user, than the IG's power is greater than the UN, the IG must be multiversal then. Black Alice diverted the Spectreforce agaist Spectre's will, Black Alice's own power is not greater than the Spectre's.
Says who? Adam Warlock never said that, neither did Thanos, nor Living Tribunal, nor Eternity. It's only been suggested that the IG, can lay waste to this reality in a confrontation with the Living Tribunal. Who cares. The UN can reset all realities on a multiversal scale, as seen on-panel, as confirmed by Reed and Roma. IG can beat Quasar, who sucks at using the UN. IG never did anything multiversal on the scale that the UN did.
Never said the IG can't affect an alternate reality. I said the Infinity Gauntlet never affects the Marvel Multiverse all at once. Odin has no feat on the scale of the UN either. UN > Odin. That's easy to conclude.IG wrecked Quasar, who sucked at using the UN. That doesn't mean IG > UN at all, otherwise Black Alice > Spectre. False cause fallacy.
Same thing here with the ig. Galactus was present with the ig,so why didn't they just give it to Galactus to end the ig affair? Answer:because the ig>un.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
👆
You avoided my question of how the flaring Phoenix doesn't disintegrate the materialized universe, if that is what you really think happened. I've already addressed your other points, you're taking the order of events and speech incorrectly:Can't be bothered to tredge up all the old links. What source by Marvel are you referring to? It better not be the unnofficial fan-made www.marvelunapp.com again.
I've answered all questions. Start with one question I didn't answer.
I'm pretty much Grant Morrison'ed to death and it's nobody's fault but my own. argue
Why would a Phoenix energy signature over the universe in Jeans palm destroy it? Where did you read that the energy signature is limited to being destructive? The Phoenix can manifest any energy in any amount.
Jeans not doing anything destructive in the scene, she reaching in telepathically and changing Scotts mind. Telepathic energy would not be blowing up the universe lol.
If you go back about 3/4 pages through to my response i made today and onwards you'll see that i havent taken the order of events out of sequence. I addressed them in order and went through it in detail, we just interpreted it in different ways.
However i highlighted why according to the results of Jeans actions and comments made by other characters your interpretation couldnt be right. I also referred to handbooks supporting my point. The handbook scan you presented was the first handbook reference to the scene. It never contradicted my account as such, it did however not mention all the details. A subsequent entry referred to how Jean actually severed the future from the rest of the multiverse.
Look back and you'll see.
Youre a good debater. I enjoyed this.
Originally posted by kgkg
Marvel needs to work on their cosmology to many flaws
Its because they keep the X-men separate from everyone else. Phoenix rarely mixes with the other cosmics and yet we're told on panel and in handbooks that shes the Big Bang amongst other things placing her beyond the abstracts. Its crazy. I was hoping for some more info in the Phoenix trilogy but its not going anywhere!!!!
Originally posted by GalacticStormThat and the constant change of some abstract going from multiversal to universal and vise versa or at least having an multiversal affect in come comic book issue.
Its because they keep the X-men separate from everyone else. Phoenix rarely mixes with the other cosmics and yet we're told on panel and in handbooks that shes the Big Bang amongst other things placing her beyond the abstracts. Its crazy. I was hoping for some more info in the Phoenix trilogy but its not going anywhere!!!!
Another major problem is Marvel puts these cosmic in such a high ranking for being only being universal abstracts. When lower tier characters almost have better feat and in some cases multiversal affect
problem with Phoenix is that it has almost no battle feat or any direct conflict with other abstract.
And we might never see it by the way things are going atm- if there is anything significant in marvel cosmic wise Phoenix is always left out unless it's an x-men issue.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I have a question for GS or ODG that neither has answered especially GS.GS give me a list of all the abstracts or foes who Phoenix has beaten? I'm looking to see if as you claim phoenix has all the victories against all these abstracts and foes. Since of course she could just disintegrate all foes at a atomic level 🙄
I say again.. Tell me who the Phoenix has beaten on panel?
Originally posted by kgkg
That and the constant change of some abstract going from multiversal to universal and vise versa or at least having an multiversal affect in come comic book issue.Another major problem is Marvel puts these cosmic in such a high ranking for being only being universal abstracts. When lower tier characters almost have better feat and in some cases multiversal affect
problem with Phoenix is that it has almost no battle feat or any direct conflict with other abstract.
And we might never see it by the way things are going atm- if there is anything significant in marvel cosmic wise Phoenix is always left out unless it's an x-men issue.
Totally agree. But all we can do is make the most sense of this mess as we can using on panel feats, handbook accounts and a bit of common sense.
IG in current continuity is powered by the Big Bang.
Phoenix Force is the Big Bang.
Highest IG feat is beating representations of the universe within the universe.
The greatest avatar of the Phoenix (not even wielding the full power of the Force) manipulated all that is the ACTUAL universe in the palm of her hand at the atomic level, conclusively demonstrating she was wielding considerably more power than was contained in that universe. She didnt deal with little representations that each tap into the ambient universes power, she manipulated the sum of the actual universe and held it in her hand like a snow globe.
Reputation<On panel feats
Phoenix Force > IG wielder
Simple. 😬
