T&T on the love triangle.

Whoa! What happened here? Let's bring balance back to the force shall we? Obviously, we don't want to make Surreal feel attacked for voicing her opinion right? After all, there are plenty of other sites in which this happens on a regular basis.

There is no wrong or right on both sides of the compass. So there's no point in attacking people and calling their opinions wrong, and I'm singling both of you out.

It's ok for people to disagree with J/E, W/E or N\B. We're not here to make people change sides so much as we are to have a calm discussion. So keep it clean. Telling people that they're opinion is wrong essentially provokes personal attacks and we just put this issue to rest a few days ago with KTTC.

In a way, surreal is right is about the times. People would have been horrified to know that Elizabeth was marrying a blacksmith, a man beneath her station. This shows that she is a forward thinking woman, who would follow the dictates of her heart, rather than submitting to a loveless marriage to a man like Norrington. (Though really, is he such a loss?)

This in no way, however, means that she adamently loves Will. It only illustrates that she's not so superficial that she cares for an instant about marrying for money. His being a blacksmith is just his station and not indicative of who Will is as a person. She didn't flirt with Jack and essentially work hard to try to get him to kiss her because Will was a blacksmith. There is simply something more at work. Do we know what it is yet? No.

So really, in short, you're both right! HA!

yeah but Liz obviously doesnt care does she svvysparrow? She's not one to care about how people view her movie 1 made that very obvious.

well surreal's making me feel attacked because I'm voicing an opinion..making me feel like I'm stupid and haven't learned anything from film studies..just winds me up when people think film studies isnt accurate when it comes to analysing a movie..well they need to tell that to T&T because they had to learn exactly the same way I did before they could even become successful directors/scrit writers.
I'm not saying I'm right..just dont make me sound like I'm analysing the movies the wrong way cuz I'm not.. I have a A level in the darn subject meaning possibly in the future I can try to write my own successful screenplays etc..

I would like to see people who dont study the subject try to get into that line of work and be successful.

Ha, I'm not saying that at all. Most of us respect your opinion and I think Surreal does too. All I'm saying is that don't rise to the occassion when someone else attacks you.

I think you're bang on about a lot of things, and certainly you've got an edge with your film studies degree that a lot of the rest of us don't. No on has the right to make you feel inferior with out your permission. I think what you two ought to do is make this round a draw. You have your opinion, she has hers, shake hands, tap gloves and come back fighting for round two.

And yes, what movie one essentially established is that Elizabeth is free spirited. That she's willing to fight against what it is society dictates is right or wrong. (Her own interal moral landscape, if you will).

And for the record, I think it's a bit silly for people to criticize other people for their expertise. Certainly, I would feel a little miffed if people started telling me that the four years I spent to be a music major were for naught while I was analyzing a piece of music.

Like I said, let's keep the focus of the forum board on what we can glean from the facts.

The only time I get annoyed is when people say I dont know what I'm doing when I look at movies..or basically implying that.

I know the theories may be wrong but the techniques I use to study them are at A level grade (also studying it at uni now) so I know what I'm talking about when I say the dog may be a way to get Jack's theme across. It just gets my goat when people think I'm not "qualified" to study film, because it knocks my confidence. I hope to work on movies one day..and I feel as if I can until people start to say I'm looking too deep or what ever because it makes me feel as if I would fail when writing a script in the future.. there is no such thing as looking too deep into movies..

I know when to spot crap and when to spot themes and mise en scene used to generate theme and also filter out most of the crap.

I know that, you know that but it's because we've taken film classes. A lot of people here haven't, so they're not quite as well versed with the techincal aspects of things. Just take a deep breath and be patient! Remember that a lot of people see movies for the entertainment value only, so it's hard for them to take that initial leap. When I started my film class, it was hard for me. It takes time.

what savvysparrow said is true...

Yeah. I'm orry for snapping...well i didnt really snap I just went with one of my long winded posts to try and proove that I know what I'm talking about 😂

also i have just had one MOTHER of a brain explosion thing!!..I have just thought of something else that is REALLY interesting

OMG the PM I just sent you savvysparrow makes no sense LOL

what?!?!?! what is it? 🙂

LOL I'm to excited at the moment..wait wait..

What Terry says about the pearl and what it now means to Jack ..how it now makes him feel..is exactly how Calypso made Odysseus feel in the Odyssey and is what made him activly yearn for penelope. He was stuck therre on this islane..he loved it but year after year it became his prison.

I thought there was something missing when it came to Oddy/Jack and this vital moment where he yearns for a woman. Yearns to be with her and return to her.

4. Jack was never enamored of his ship; he was and is enamored of what his ship represents: freedom. And, of course, as it turned out the very thing he wanted so much he was willing to make a deal with the devil to get, has come to represent either a hundred years of servitude (and eventual loss of identity) or death.

Why, it's almost as if Jack claimed the thing he wanted most in the world at the eventual cost of his own freedom. Hm ... I wonder if that idea might be relevant to some other part of the movie? Reflected, refracted and explored throughout the movie, even? Demonstrated in action and dialogue, or even overtly referenced at points?

OHHH MYYYY GOD! Jack should TOTALLY end up with Liz by the end of this all..its obvious in my eyes...they are using this Odysseus/Calypso/penelope theme when it comes to Jack and what happens to his character in DMC when it comes to Elizabeth.

that is exactly what Calypso did to Odysseus, and how she made him feel. It made him activly yearn for penelope..itmade him want to be a hero again after years of hibernation as a character.

I'm too tired to go into detail. I will search harder with it tomorrow..and look deeper tomorrow. 😂

I do also think Liz's lust pushes this theme along..as does Tia/Calypso's role in the story..I dont think we will see Liz's lust in movie 3...all the women Jack has been with, the way he lives life is all this is the "7 year hibernation" thing that Oddy went through.

Yes Lovely, that T and T quote has always confused me 😮 I'm anxious to read what else you think! So we might actually have a J/E ending? I need to research this Odysseus more. I am laughing at Liz having to hold back her lust for Jack! What self control this girl has......

Swann&Sparrow:

Because you're not even making sense. Elizabeth wore a corset every since we first saw her, are you metally insane? THAT'S WHAT I SAID, I SAID THAT SHE WAS ALWAYS WEARING A CORSET, with Will or not.

And you know this how?? She was moving rather freely on her wedding day, wasn't she? And if you recall, the first time Elizabeth ever wore a corset was on the day she received the proposal from Norrington...Jack cut off her corset remember? I don't think she'd ever put one back on, do you? Probably not. Your theory on a 'suffocating and corsetted life with Will" isn't going to work. Sorry.

And she was friends with Will, no duh. Or else your 'theory' of her looking after him and loving him since childhood and crap wouldn't work either. So if she was friends with him then she knew him and he was a part of her old life. IT'S A MOVIE NOT REAL LIFE, NOT HISTORY, DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY MAKE EVERY SINGLE TINSY WINSY THING ACCORDING TO HISTORY? THEY MADE HER GO WITH WILL, IS THAT NOT AGAINST HISTORY, THEY DON'T LET HIGHER CLASS PEOPLE GO WITH LOWER CLASS, THEY JUST DON'T INFACT THEY KILL THE LOWER CLASS PEOPLE FOR MINGLING WITH UPPER CLASSES.

No, obviously they didn't follow history completely accurately, considering Port Royal would have been partially undwater and burned to the ground by the time the movie rolls around, not to mention the uniforms of the Navy and such....

But that isn't the point. Certain rules have to be followed, not ignored, and we get a small hint of how the governor still feels about Will, even after all this time. If the governor feels this way, you can bet almost everyone else in town feels the same way.

Take that. Oh, it must sting.

Um...no. Sorry. Is that the best insult you have, or are you just warming up?

AND AND! You do know that WE'RE the ones that think Elizabeth is strong, while most (NOT ALL) of you EW shippers think she's just a component of the relationship. We didn't in any way say that Elizabeth is weak, are you seriously delusional, when did we say that?!!

First of all, NOT W/E shipper. I think we've been through that.

Second of all, you make Elizabeth go from a strong, independent woman to a woman who just...oooh, simply can't stand the temptation of Jack Sparrow in her life...so instead of DEALING with it, like she seems perfectly capable of, you....

Make her CRAZY!!! How can you not see that having her kill Jack because he's basically too irresistable and she's AFRAID to face her true love of him...so she KILLS him?

That just makes her some insane woman who shouldn't be allowed near ANY man. I don't see how that makes her a strong woman. It just makes her weird.

The fact is, we didn't. Don't twist our words and say we're twisting yours or T&T, okay. Just don't, it's rude and it shows us that you will be willing to make up anything to make your point and it shows us that you don't have enough respect to listen to us and not make up lies.

How did I twist the words of TnT? They say that Elizabeth chained Jack up to punish him for what he did to Will, and somehow this gets glossed over, ignored, or interperated in the strangest of ways. I'm not sure how much more clear their comments could be.

I don't want to be mean, but making Elizabeth a lust-crazed woman who can't make up her mind is about all I can handle.

Elizabeth is a strong-willed woman who is willing to risk other people to save the life of the man she loves. She will do anything for Will. What has she done for Jack? When she stepped up beside Will at the end of CotBP, she goes to be with HIM...not to protect Jack.

Will and Elizabeth's love is not something hidden, because it doesn't need to be hidden. The writers have all but said that Will and Elizabeth are in love, and they have said the triangle has been resolved. That is the evidence. There is some tension between Jack and Elizabeth, yeah, but there is nothing there that would prove there is a solid enough relationship that would last.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
OMG the PM I just sent you savvysparrow makes no sense LOL

HA! I know. I was actually in another class, I opened it up eager to read what you wrote and I was utterly baffled. And yet, I think I re-read it and understood it. I don't know whether I should be happy or frightened! 🙂

LovelyOne:

I'm not saying that you don't really know what you are talking about. I think that you are totally misinterperating things. That doesn't mean that your opinion doesn't matter and it certainly doesn't mean that you aren't qualified to study films.

What my main issue is that you ram down our throats that you studied film. Fine. Good for you. Glad you did it.

That does not mean, however, that your opinion is necessarily correct, nor does it mean that your education immediately invalidates anything I write that is in disagreement with you.

So...that's all I have to say on that matter.

I'd be willing to agree to disagree with J/E shippers, but I can't help it. I have to argue when I disagree.

And let me clarify that I don't mean for people not to argue, so long as it's about the facts and stays away from personal attacks. Obviously, debates excite passions which will lead people to argument.

I was just commenting that in this epic battle, there is no wrong or right answer, so there's no use in declaring someone else's opinion to be wrong. It was a general observation meant to encompass all of the posts that were recently posted regarding this rather contentious topic.

Surreal's disagreement reminds all of us that we are human, and in that we can error in our judgement, whether we've studied science, astrology, music, math or even film. We might all be slightly biased here because in our eagerness to prove J/E, we will pick up on the things we want to see, and in doing so, fail to recognize some of the other things that also may exist. That's why it's nice to have a differing opinion on the board! And why it's also great to have people that have studied film. All of these perspectives arm us with the tools that allow for us to view Pirates with the spirit of absorbing it's richness.

So, let's all agree to disagree so that we can be more informed viewers, eh?

Or as Jack says to Barbossa in the leaked script:

BARBOSSA
(CONT’D)
An uneasy alliance?
JACK SPARROW
An unholy one.

[QUOTE=7687566]Originally posted by Surreal_44
[B]Swann&Sparrow:

Second of all, you make Elizabeth go from a strong, independent woman to a woman who just...oooh, simply can't stand the temptation of Jack Sparrow in her life...so instead of DEALING with it, like she seems perfectly capable of, you....

Make her CRAZY!!! How can you not see that having her kill Jack because he's basically too irresistable and she's AFRAID to face her true love of him...so she KILLS him?

Ha, ok that did make me laugh. When you put it like that, the theory does make Elizabeth's actions sound a little....extreme. It does raise some vital questions for the J/E ship. If Elizabeth is the independent thinker that we claim she is, why is it then, that she chooses to sacrifice Jack if she finds him irresitable? What was it that prevented her from choosing Jack in DMC besides the horrible Beastie with about a million and a half teeth?

Here is my answer to that though it's not necessarily the best. A lot of the J/E relationship, as with any relationship, hinges on trust. Elizabeth is uncertain of whether or not she can trust Jack because she doesn't necessarily understand his complexities. In my opinion, Jack was once a good man like Will, and through the circumstances of his life, his pattern of betrayal is a learned pattern. In other words, he wasn't always Jack Sparrow, the misathrope, rascally Pirate. Unlike many of the other characters in the films, she has the capability to see a little of the man he once was shinning through the wood work.

She has faith that he will be a good man, but his actions and his words don't always coincide with that notion. When they are reunited for the first time in DMC, she essentially asks the question that threads together their encounters for the rest of the movie.
"Jack, are you telling the truth?"

There's a lot more to this, quotes and actions that support the theory, and it's hard to get it all down without having the world's longest post, but I'll try to sum it up as best as I can. Elizabeth sacrifices Jack not for Will, but because of his actions towards Will that violated her trust. He proved himself not to be trustworthy, he violated her trust if you will and in that, how can she possibly know whether or not the emotions that he showed are his true feelings? She's not certain whether or not she can give her heart to him, even though he returned to the ship to rescue her. He may betray her trust again, and clearly from her vented anger (which is psychologically speaking a mask for hurt) (rum-soaked pirates), she was very upset with his actions and the fact that he lied to her. (Notice that she wasn't exactly protesting Jack's action so much as she was protesting his words. She says "Every word you said, every word was a lie) At this point in the film, I actually believe she was also referring to his behavior towards her as well. She's slightly disillushioned.

So, her sacrifice has less to do with the idea of her finding him so utterly irresistiable, as it has to do with Elizabeth, for the first time making a more cowardly choice. She doesn't fear Jack so much as she fears a broken heart. What she doesn't understand is that in order to trust Jack, you have to trust his actions and not his words. (What a man can do, and what a man can't do).

i think she was scared of Jack so she tied him to the mast. I mean the compass pointing to him and everything. she was desiring Jack and when she saw him come back she made her decision and deny her love towards him by tying him to the mast, she is afraid to love Jack becuz it's not really her nature what she is used to. The governers daughter can't love a man like that, let alone she was a bit scared to be with Will in COTBP becuz he is below her level so when she relizes she loves Jack she wont accept it she is too afraid so she tastes a bit of curiosity and leaves at that only to relize she made a major mistake and will stop at nothing to get him back! She belolongs with Jack

JACK AND LIZ=<3<3<3

Surreal44..I'm totally not..Much of what I guessed would happen in AWE is actually in the script.

And I just realised a way I can somewhat proove to you that the script is real now without naming names..and I totally missed the thread posted earlier

..In the script I have explains why they are using Niagra Falls to film. I know what its gonna be used for in the movie.

The script I have is real.

not that this is the only proof..I have other confirmations.

well its kinda obvious what its being used for DS-dog realized, but I got parts of this script before this news even came out about them being in Niagara..and I knew of this scene and the waterfall about 2 months ago...