T&T on the love triangle.

Okay, looks like everyone's up in the air on why she chained him to the mast in the first place. Some say it was because she was afraid, others have different reasons.

I agree that having a capable, usually level-headed girl like Liz suddenly lose it to the point of leaving someone to their death is a little extreme. We saw how well she kept her head during the raid of her house, her dealings with Barbossa, battling on the ship, burning the rum, fighting off Davy's crew. She's strong, physically and mentally.
She also seems very, VERY happy to have Jack back. True, it can be a scary thing when you learn someone loves you so much they would come face death for you. I do believe he came back mostly for her, but also that her words got to him and he is a good person deep down. But she was thrilled to see him and cuddled his leg (I still wish she hadn't done that), so up to the point where she says they have to get to land, she seems happy to have him there.
Which is why I don't understand how she could go a whole 180 in such a short time. Right after the Kracken, none of them really have a lot of time to slow down and think, including Liz. She doesn't have time to think "Jack came back for me. He's in love with me and I'm supposed to be marrying Will." I'm sure the main thought on everyone's mind was SURVIVAL.
So Liz gets it in her head that the Kracken is after Jack not the ship. Jack wasn't on the ship when the Kracken attacked, so her logic may be a little off, but couldn't the Kracken's be off too? As long as Jack remained alive and with them, he was a danger to them. I really think the main reason Liz did what she did was to save herself and the others.
But that doesn't explain the kiss, and here is where that comes in: Liz is falling for Jack, hard and fast. Her noble idea forming, she decides to kill two birds with one stone and kiss him, able to make the excuse it was to distract him. And we've all seen the clip a million times, it's hot and they're both really into it and she succeeds in seducing Jack.
And she leans in for another and he's all too happy to oblige her, and THAT'S when I think she started getting scared just how much he loved her.

i 100% agrre with you! also in the 1st movie when liz was marooned on the island like Jack they talked about the pearl and going on adventre together on th pearl and when Jack woke up the next day he was mad and liz said that the royal navy is looking for her yata yata then when jack leaves he see's the navy and say "there will be living with her after this" then in the end of the movie when liz comfrots her love towards will Jack speeks to liz saying "Elizabeth it will never work out between us" so between those two lines Jack said, maybe thats foreshadowing or giving us a clue or something that maybe they will probably end up together.

I think Liz still loves Will but she also loves Jack. I mean she likes the goody goody smart and loyal will but she also likes the adventurous freedom not afraid to take a chance Jack. I think she knows that Jack has fallen for her but too afraid to accept it becasue she has also fallen for him but she is engaged to Will another love she has so in the end she chose to be with Will tying jack to the mast and when she left him to die she relized she loves Jack more then she gives herself credit and will stop at nothing to get him back

At least you and I can agree that Liz leaving Jack to die wasn't some psychotic way of dealing with her love for him. That's one of the strangest (and worst character analysis) I've ever seen for her.

However, the kiss is not about her fast-growing love for him. Look at the calculation on her face right before she kisses him. She needs to get him to stay on the ship, and she needs to do it in a way where he won't have time to figure out what she is doing or to call out to the others.

For a woman, there aren't many options available to her, and besides, the kiss was broadly hinted at in the 'curiosity' scene. That's mainly why it happens. Elizabeth is curious to see what being selfish tastes like, so she uses that as her way to trap him. At the end of the kiss, she gets this look on her face that....I don't know how to describe, except that she doesn't look happy. She does lean in ever so slightly for the kiss.

Jack's reaction is what I find interesting. He doesn't move. He doesn't lean in, and in the end, Elizabeth pulls back and leaves Jack behind. I don't think Jack has changed his feelings for her, but I think he knows that Elizabeth doesn't love him. When they get him back, he may try to change her mind, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

Everything Elizabeth has done, from the beginning of the first movie until the end of the second movie has been for Will. I'm really trying to think of one thing that she's done for Jack, and ONLY for Jack, but I can't think of one thing. Everything she has done for him has involved Will in some way.

And I still believe that attraction and lust do not make a romance. Jack may love Elizabeth for those qualities that make them similar, but Elizabeth is not in love with him, and I somehow think that she won't decide that all she's felt for Will has been some sort of mistake.

or she was just dying to kiss him surreal44, the curiosity scene and the scene after she kissed him suggests she wanted to. She could have used any other ways to get him there..the guns..he sword.

and IMO that is a statement of how she is dealing with her love for him. It's very melodramatic. T&T said they like to tie in emotional moments with 2 characters into the action itself. This is called melodrama.

I take it you have ignored what Terry said on wordplay, I'm sure it was you who once had faith in everything Terry said. Let me post it here incase you missed it:

>> NO more WOMEN:

>> - Hopping on people
>> - Screeching
>> - Crying
>> - Tripping and Falling, etc.

>> Just stop it already!

For the record, I've never written a woman who hopped on someone, or who screeched, or who tripped and fell.

Guilty on the charge of writing a character who cried. (I think when you decide to send someone you may indeed love to their death, a single tear might be in order, given that it reveals a part of yourself you might not be able to live with.)

You can keep saying all she feels is for Will and Will alone but Terry has said thats not the case..You told us that at the end Liz was not crying because she thinks she loves Jack, Well Terry the writer would contradict you.

Elizabeth is not crying because of Will. She's crying because she has betrayed a man, usually she doesn't care but this time because its someone she loves..its hit her hard and has made her come to a realisation about herself and Will it seems, by the end of it she obiously gives up a happy ending with Will to return to Jack Sparrow

and its not to redeem herself and nothing else..Terry says she's thinking she's in love with him in that last scene so her decision MUST be based on that.

LOL Jack has come to learn not to be forward with women by the end of DMC..he's mirroring Odysseus..When Terry spoke about the pearl and what it reprosented to him..he was almost lusting after before it seems like the perfect paradise but it comes to symbolise a prison. This happens to Odysseus and we se him suddenly gaion control over his masculinity and he then returns to the hero he once was after 7 years of hibernation as a character he goes into active longing for Penelope...We then see him face Poseidon's wrath annd become swallowed by it (vast feminine the sea) and he's reborn again from the waves and then shows his control over his masculinity that once dominated his existance. Jack gets swallowed by a giant vagina (vast feminine) Its Davy the sea gods wrath. Oddy owed Poseidon a debt and his soul. Jack owes Davy a debt and his soul.

I think its pretty hilarious to suggest that Jack's feelings have suddenly dissapeared now. According to the novel doesnt he "desire elizabeth all the more knowing her heart was as dark as his own" as soon as she chains him there...you can see it in his face that he has fallen for her HARD

It was only a suggestion that his feelings may have changed. Not a statement of truth. Besides, the leaked script information lets us know that he does still have feelings for her in some form. I'm just not sure it's TRUE LOVE.

Your comparison of Jack to Odysseus is interesting, and I'm still pondering over it. Not to argue, necessarily, but to add a bit more to it. I'm not convinced though that Elizabeth is "Penelope", because for one, she hasn't been in love with him for that long and she certainly wasn't waiting for him, as Penelope had waited for Odysseus. We'll see. 😄

are you sure about that? The widow line in DMC would suggest different..twice

and her opening to moive 1 would suggest she's been married to the idea of being with somone like Jack since before she even met Will.

"At least you and I can agree that Liz leaving Jack to die wasn't some psychotic way of dealing with her love for him. That's one of the strangest (and worst character analysis) I've ever seen for her.

However, the kiss is not about her fast-growing love for him. Look at the calculation on her face right before she kisses him. She needs to get him to stay on the ship, and she needs to do it in a way where he won't have time to figure out what she is doing or to call out to the others.

For a woman, there aren't many options available to her, and besides, the kiss was broadly hinted at in the 'curiosity' scene. That's mainly why it happens. Elizabeth is curious to see what being selfish tastes like, so she uses that as her way to trap him. At the end of the kiss, she gets this look on her face that....I don't know how to describe, except that she doesn't look happy. She does lean in ever so slightly for the kiss."

Yes, to the first, we both agree Liz isn't psychotic. I don't think she did it to keep him away from her. Her face is very interesting to watch right before she kisses him and I've tried to figure this out. I think she's sincere in her words. She is thankful he came back and she has always known him to be good. She does look like she's come up with this plan, and granted, a woman's body is her best resource in a situation like this. "Oh, Jack, I found some rope, let's see where it leads" is less realistic. But, I think like the "persuasion" scene, she bit off more than she could chew.
They do lock eyes, and even though she's being dominant, she's into it. There would be no need for "make it convincing" because Jack's not trying to get out of it or anything. As for calling for help, you can always break off a kiss to yell for help, and he could have yelled for help after she broke away from him.

You also mention their faces after they've kissed and before she turns and leaves. Oh man, everyone can watch this clip a thousand times and still come up with different interpretations. I won't bother to analyze Jack's face because it looks pretty euphoric to me. Even when he's escaped the chains and picks up his hat, he still seems a little dazed to me. So we'll look at Liz's face, eyes looking right at him and gritting her teeth. Haven't you ever gritted your teeth when you were determined? The kiss hasn't changed her mind about what to do, but she needs to concentrate so she won't let him go. Then she makes her excuses, which really aren't that good and come across as fake "this is the only way, don't you see" is one of the stupidest lines imo. And she leans in, her eyes about to close. She wants another kiss! I think she was tempted to even stay there with him. And Jack's just grinning and enjoying it, and a guy who just finds a girl hot wouldn't do that. He's about to die and he isn't calling out for help, and I really don't know what could do that other than love.

Kate

do you think there is something significant about Liz changing her clothes again?

Maybe it's just the fact that all find Liz and Jack the more interesting couple, but there is just as much evidence for them as there is for Liz and Will. It all depends on Movie 3, which I have not read the script because I want to be surprised. It will have to involve Liz making a choice.

Liz may love Jack, but Elizabeth Swann will marry Will Turner. It all depends on what she decides she wants most in the world.

Just a piece of advice for everyone, I've only seen the movie once, other than clips, and I didn't have any idea what I was in for. I never thought Jack and Liz would be romantically linked and I kind of liked that she proved different from the other girls by not falling for him in the first movie. She proved her worth to me that way.
So go see the second movie again, and just watch it, no preconceived notions, nothing. Just plain movie watching, all searches for symbols and logic pushed aside. I was a little turned off when all Liz can say is "if it weren't for these bars I'd have you already."
But then Tia Dalma's shack made me think. "Jack Sparrow doesn't know what he wants. Or maybe he do but he loathe to claim it for his own." My mind was spinning: what would Jack want? Oh wow, it would be so cool if he wanted love. Then I thought the only partner even available was Liz, so I started wondering if that was the route they would go. All the scenes they had together sort of spelled it out and made it obvious they would go that way, yet I didn't even think they would kiss. When he almost kisses her, I was on the edge of my seat but thought, "oh, what could have been."

And then they actually did kiss! And everyone in the audience who had been cheering and clapping when the Kracken was supposedly defeated was dead silent except for a few gasps when we found out Will saw. And like we said, you can examine the kiss for hours and not get anywhere.

So from the perspective of someone who saw it once and didn't know what to expect, I started to see how Jack and Liz made sense, and how they do seem to have more than flirtation going on. Especially if you go back and see the first movie.

so far with what I have Liz hasn't had many lines..its already very Will based and hes after the means to save his dad..Liz/Will have had no close moments..so far

striaght away when I watched movie 1 I said to myself.."Ok she likes pirates since she was a wee one..why is she with Will then? Why is will not in that shot when she says "it is" where her heart truly lies?"

Its just her and Jack.

Willofthewisp, very intelligent post. My reaction was quite similar. Shock, awe. Something along those lines.

The writers consistently urge their peers (on wordplayer) to push things as far as they can. In my humble opinion, the relationship between Jack and Elizabeth has not been pushed to the limit yet. There are still acres for them to explore. 😉

Originally posted by RedHandedJill
Willofthewisp, very intelligent post. My reaction was quite similar. Shock, awe. Something along those lines.

The writers consistently urge their peers (on wordplayer) to push things as far as they can. In my humble opinion, the relationship between Jack and Elizabeth has not been pushed to the limit yet. There are still acres for them to explore. 😉

Totally agree
I am ready to see Lots more J/L action in this next film
RedHandedJill are you new?
WELCOME!!!

thank you! 🙂 Much appreciated. I've lurked for a while. Thought I'd jump in.

Originally posted by RedHandedJill
thank you! 🙂 Much appreciated. I've lurked for a while. Thought I'd jump in.

you knew!!!! thats incredible. lol. 🙂

anyways, its interesting to look back through all the moments in 1, where there seems to be such clear hints towards Jack and Elizabeth having a relationship at some point... i wonder why they left so many of those in, if they werent thinking they would get to do a sequel?

I KNOW! i so thought they were at least gunna kiss or something but they didn't even my mom, during the island scene, was all poor Will gunna be betrayed b4 he has a chance..."

LovelyOne, I am right in assuming you were the original perpetrator of the Liz/Jack= Oddysseus/Calypso similarities? 🙂 they are rampant all over the internet now, but as I recall, you initiated that bit of fun?

is surreal still in denial?