T&T on the love triangle.

Oh and I forgot to add some things about Lizzie.

You know I think the reason she went back to the 'corset' (or her old life) is because she's used to corsets, she can't imagine living in pants and a shirt even if they are comfortable.

In other words, even though she loves Jack and even though she loves being a pirate she goes back to her old life with Will cause she knows him. Jack is her curiosity but Lizzie is the kind of gal that was brought up in a world that was all about going with the crowd, of staying with familiarities and with not taking risks.

Jack would be a dangerous risk, so she goes back to Will cause she knows him and had grown up with him around her. So it would be natural to run back to you blanky when something scares you, right?

I think that's why Lizzie went back, plus you know how those high royal ladies wear corsets? Well they're supposed to love it and look good in it. And Lizzie is confused whether to do the same with Will, she's supposed to love him and supposed to be happy with him. But she clearly isn't.

Yay. JACK & LIZZIE FO EVA!

I though the same thing, Lizz goes back to her old life, because that was the only thing she knew. IMO she was afraid to try something new, although she was curious about what it was like, but was afraid to take those steps. And thats what we see in DMC at the end, she was curious, she got a taste of it, and she liked it. And now she doesn't want to go back to her old way of life. 😄
How is that hard to understand?

Sorry just to add on to what i was saying. Jack basically gives up his life for Liz just like he sold his soul for the pearl 13 years before it was once the thing he wanted most, the ship came to reprosent imprisonment and 100 years of service to Davy..when you look at what Terry said at one glance you would think Jack wouldn't want Elizbaeth because it raises the same theme, she reprosents "no freedm". But its different. She quite literally limits his freedom and makes him stay for her and he likes it. Hence the smile. He dies knowing that he wants to make her an obligation in his life and limit his freedom because she is worth it.

IMO basically with Jack is the same thing. The Pearl is what he has always known, it represents freedom to him. But the Pearl was more like a prison, He realised it at the end of DMC when he said that the Pearl was only a ship. Although he was attached to it, and cared about the Pearl, but deep down inside he knew the ship was limiting other things that he indeed desired. Other than material things that would give him true happiness. I think Jack was afraid of the consequences, at the end of DMC, I think thats why we see him a little bit sad about giving up his possession. Because he though Liz didn't feel the same way. But after she chained him to the mast he knew he had won her over. And that made him the courage to fight the bestie

I dont actually think he was even bothered about it anymore..I think that look of pain he gave when gibbs said "abandon ship or abandon hope" was because he was about to leave Liz. He was going to stay IMO

I say this because Just as Will was talking about leaving he was looking right at her...then he walks the opposite direction to the boat. I dont think that was him saying goodbye to the pearl that was him preparing to stay.

Yes that could be very much true. He was doing it for her. But I wonder what would have happen if Jack would have made the choice to go with them and leave the ship? I don't think Liz would have left Will for Jack.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I dont actually think he was even bothered about it anymore..I think that look of pain he gave when gibbs said "abandon ship or abandon hope" was because he was about to leave Liz. He was going to stay IMO

I say this because Just as Will was talking about leaving he was looking right at her...then he walks the opposite direction to the boat. I dont think that was him saying goodbye to the pearl that was him preparing to stay.

yeah I'm with you on this. I really think Jack was going to stay.

i mean, the conversation as a whole. He's already made his choice to come back, and he's staying. that was the whole compass bit from before. He didn't think there would be another escape chance-- not for him anyways. He came back for the crew and Lizzie, to try to save them. But he had already settled that he was going down with his ship. He returned the longboat, which was their only chance to escape.

Because look at the intensity/eye talking going on between Liz and Jack when Liz says "he's right, we have to head for land."

He gives her this look... almost like, "no love, YOU have to head for land." But clearly Liz isnt getting the message.

i mean, its not like Jack could have told them he was planning on staying. Gibbs and the crew would have tried to talk him out of it... right?

yeah exactly...he would have and I agree with every word you say

Liz takes that look and line of his the wrong way she looked as if that line scared her even more She's worried ebcause he's showing signs of not loving his ship anymore..because of her of course.

even when she chains him up she still didnt get it..If Jack really didnt wanna stay we would have heard him yacking on, shouting trying to escape. I cant believe she didnt notice it.

Originally posted by Mistypirate
Yes that could be very much true. He was doing it for her. But I wonder what would have happen if Jack would have made the choice to go with them and leave the ship? I don't think Liz would have left Will for Jack.

she may have gone with Jack..thats the very reason she felt she had to get rid of Jack in the first place IMO..because she didnt trust herself to remain faithful to Will if Jack was still around her, especially after what Jack just did for her. He had just come back for her and her feelings for him had sky rocketed..this is the threat. She doesnt really fear the sexual desire she has..its the deeper feelings for him that she's afraid of...It seems.

you put them together and you see the ending..She's sexually forward yet terrified of her feelings for him so she runs away.

That would totally explain her actions at the end of the movie. I never though of that before. That she didn't trust herself to remain faithful to Will. I thought that she was getting rid of him because her feelings for him were getting deeper, and that she couldn't live with the guilt of being with a man but be in love with another one. But it never crossed my mind that she would have been unfaithful to Will if Jack had made the decision to abandon the ship as well.

what she did to him there showed us that she probably would be unfaitful to Will had Jack remained around her. She kissed him and Will was only feet away..she also almost kissed him again when he was chained to the mast already..he's a threat to her.(in her eyes anyway)

Yes she kissed Jack with Will being really close to them, and she didn't really cared. It makes sense that she would have been unfaithful to Will. It would also explained when Jack called her "pirate". And she being taken back by his words. She knew what she was capable of doing if he would have chosen to stay.

I don't understand how you could even make Elizabeth out to be as weak as you have and expect Jack to even want to be near her. How pathetic do you think Elizabeth is? Don't you think she's strong enough to make a choice in her men without you know...KILLING one of them to make up her mind?

We KNOW why Elizabeth chained Jack to the mast, the writers have said so. She did it to punish Jack for what he did to Will. The fact that she leans in doesn't mean a great deal...it means she was tempted to kiss him again (who wouldn't?), but she made her choice, and left him behind.

That was the choice, the decision...the kiss...and then the lack of a second kiss. Eventually, yes, she decides to go back, but it ain't because she loves him. It's because of guilt. Didn't the writers say that as well? I know you enjoy trying to decide what kind of guilt would lead to her going to fetch Jack back, but it's rather obvious that the guilt is simply from the fact that she killed someone.

*shrug* I know it's not that deep hidden meaning you're searching for (and yes, your theories are good, they're just wrong), but then again, Will and Elizabeth's relationship never needed to be mysterious and hidden; it's right there for you to see. You're just too busy chasing red herrings and shadows to get it.

Swann&Sparrow:

I see no evidence Elizabeth is wearing a corset at her wedding. Also, the first time she EVER wore a corset was on the day Norrington proposed to her. So she was never the poor corsetted girl you are trying to make her out to be.

Elizabeth took huge risks when she accepted Will's proposal. Society would have been horrified that a young respectable, not to mention wealthy daughter of a governor would even think of being in the same room as a low-class blacksmith's apprentice.

Your statements show an utter and complete lack of social knowledge of those times.

Also, Elizabeth loves Will, so your theory doesn't work at all. Sorry, love.

I wouldn't call her respectable..when no ones looking she's flirting with Jack sparrow, getting drunk on islands, betraying men to their deaths, screwing with mens emotions, fighting people, ..She's not a 17th century woman..In keira's own words she's a 20th century woman trapped in the 17th century. Will is trapped there too...but he's not a modern man. He's the typical night in shining armour man. Jack is more like Oysseus who is often quoted to be the first modern man in literature..one that is an anti - hero and so more human and modern.

I have to say you are very contradicting of yourself one moment you say Liz is strong willed, next you make her out to be someone who is afraid to be different for the times.

I would say the act of killing a man because he's such a threat to her is a very weak and selfish thing to do. they could have all got away when the Kraken attacked the pearl. Jack almsot did..It would have taken a while for it to eat that ship. Elizabeth saw him actually leave whilst the Kraken was attacking that ship..so she knows it attacks where it thinks Jack is and not where he actually is

The writers said GUILT you areright but guilt can be felt when you have hurt someone you love..If I wanted to save my family and myself and it meant killing someone who the kraken was after anyway I would bloody well do it and feel pretty much ok with it..but it fricking hurts when you have done something bad to someone you love. When I have hurt people or felt that I've betrayed pople I love I also look like Liz did when she did that to Jack. I was in tears.. I tricked some boy I didnt know..I wasnt in tears..I felt bad but meh..Liz shows this when she tricks and betrays people she doesnt really care or love in movie 1..she did it to Norrington, she did it to Jack in movie 1 and she killed about 50 men all to save Will..but those times she showed no guilt what so ever.

this time she's an emotional wreck...WHY?

I find it quite funny that you're scrambling to find those tinsy winsy things about Will and Elizabeth and the 'social knowledge of those times'

HAHAHAHA, it's really that funny.

You know why?

Because you're not even making sense. Elizabeth wore a corset every since we first saw her, are you metally insane? THAT'S WHAT I SAID, I SAID THAT SHE WAS ALWAYS WEARING A CORSET, with Will or not.

And she was friends with Will, no duh. Or else your 'theory' of her looking after him and loving him since childhood and crap wouldn't work either. So if she was friends with him then she knew him and he was a part of her old life. IT'S A MOVIE NOT REAL LIFE, NOT HISTORY, DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY MAKE EVERY SINGLE TINSY WINSY THING ACCORDING TO HISTORY? THEY MADE HER GO WITH WILL, IS THAT NOT AGAINST HISTORY, THEY DON'T LET HIGHER CLASS PEOPLE GO WITH LOWER CLASS, THEY JUST DON'T INFACT THEY KILL THE LOWER CLASS PEOPLE FOR MINGLING WITH UPPER CLASSES.

Take that. Oh, it must sting.

AND AND! You do know that WE'RE the ones that think Elizabeth is strong, while most (NOT ALL) of you EW shippers think she's just a component of the relationship. We didn't in any way say that Elizabeth is weak, are you seriously delusional, when did we say that?!!

The fact is, we didn't. Don't twist our words and say we're twisting yours or T&T, okay. Just don't, it's rude and it shows us that you will be willing to make up anything to make your point and it shows us that you don't have enough respect to listen to us and not make up lies.

HONESTLY!!

And you could say Elizabeth loves Will. Sure. Say it a million times but that's not going to change the fact that she loves Jack too. If you're too blind to see that, ON A FIFTY FOOT SCREEN, then there's no point arguing with a person that is stubborn and won't listen to REASON!!!

And I wouldnt say my theories are wrong..all you have to do is LOOK at the basicway stories are portrayed..the hero or heroin only refuses a call to adventure if they are AFRAID of that call.

Also to help prove my point..T&T also said this:

Box Office Mojo: What is the meaning of the series?
Ted Elliott: It's a study of what is a pirate. How free can you really be? What are those trade-offs? Jack kind of represents the ultimate free man? he really has no obligations to anybody, and, obviously, if you make an obligation to somebody, you're limiting your own freedom. But, if you're not willing to limit your own freedom, you can't have those relationships. If you look at Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest from that point of view,you kind of see what really leads to Jack's ultimate fate and why Elizabeth does what she does.
-from boxofficemojo.com

Jack goes back to pearl, He's decided that he wants Elizabeth in his life, He asks her to be with him by coming back for her, he shows her he wants to have a comitment with her and Elizabeth does what she does because of THAT..not because she wants to save will but because Jack Sprrow came back for HER and made her an obligatin in his life.

If Jack comes back for her then why on earth would she do what she does to him? Because she is AFRAID of him wanting to be with her..

why would she be afraid of that? Because it gives her reason to be with him

why would she be afraid of that?

because if he's there and wants to be with her whilst Will is around she might just be tempted by Jack. She shows us on may occasions in the movie that she is painfully tempted to kiss him and have sex with him, She also shows fear when her deeper emotions for him get caled into question.

In the end they get called into question big time. That shot where he looks liek a god is from Elizabeths PoV meaning that is exactly how she is feeling about him there..and so she does what she does. This man has just come back for her, he wants to be with her and it makes her feel great....and then we see the fear again moments later..

And surreal..my theories are not wrong..they are just wrong to you in your OPINION

And Surreal__44, seriously. Did you even watch the movie or were you too scared that your weak EW wouldn't survive?

Cause honey, Lizzie was wearing a corset on the wedding day. Seriously, watch it again and look closer.

See this is our point, almost none of you EW shippers look at the little details that MATTER! THEY DO MATTER, THEY'RE FOR THE PEOPLE THAT PAY ATTENTION, ever go to a movie and get completely blown away when it ends in a way that you never expected. Well deary, you didn't look close enough.

And believe me, I'll laugh so loud and send you PM's of my laughing when AWE comes out and Willy dies and Elizabeth dumps him. Seriously, cause you just can't see it.

I won't waste my time trying to swade you into believing cause you're just going to go back to your sad little, "But Elizabeth loves Will, the end. Fairy tale endings, lalala."

It's sad.

Really sad.

Again I'm going to go through this because I'm getting fed up with being told I don't know what I'm talking about..I have logical stuff to back up what I say. I was taught this in film studies and for T&T and gore to even get to where they are today and to be taken seriously..they had to learn how to structure a decent story in the same way I'm being taught. They took the same subject as me in college and uni.

1) THE HERO IS INTRODUCED IN HIS ORDINARY WORLD.

Most stories take place in a special world, a world that is new and
alien to its hero. If you're going to tell a story about a fish out
of his customary element, you first have to create a contrast by
showing him in his mundane, ordinary world. In WITNESS you see both
the Amish boy and the policeman in their ordinary worlds before they
are thrust into alien worlds -- the farmboy into the city, and the
city cop into the unfamiliar countryside. In STAR WARS you see Luke
Skywalker bored to death as a farmboy before he takes on the
universe.

Elizabeth's ordinary world is life at port Royal and Will. Feelings she is comfortable with. Jack and her {b]deeper feelings for him[/b] are the special world is introduced to her life, she feels like a fish out of water, they are "new"..its scary and this is obvious because when you see her feelings for him get brought into question she's afraid. (the lust is something totally different, the pirate behaviour is not the special world she willingly does these things) What she feers are the deeper feelings she has for him. Elizabeth is stuck face to face with her special world with all this fear for the majority of the movie..its very dangerous for her to be stuck on this stage for so long...especially when the thing you fear is stuck there with you..this is before she has had any help or guidance in the special world. Jack and Will didnt have this..this is why thier refusal of the calls were not climactic ones..they were simple "no's"

2) THE CALL TO ADVENTURE.

The hero is presented with a problem, challenge, or adventure.
Maybe the land is dying, as in the Arthur stories about the search
for the Holy Grail. In STAR WARS again, it's Princess Leia's
holographic message to Obi Wan Kenobi, who asks Luke to join in the
quest. In detective stories, it's the hero accepting a new case.
In romantic comedies it could be the first sight of that special --
but annoying someone the hero or heroine will be pursuing/sparring
with the remainder of the story.

This is the moment Jack Sparrow basically asks her to be with him by coming back for her. He has decided to make a commitment to her..and he's dead serious about it because he risked his life to come back for her...this is the moment..."Liz will you be with Jack?" he obviously cares about you so much he wants and needs you in his life..He's brave because of you...you give him strength

3) THE HERO IS RELUCTANT AT FIRST.

Often at this point, the hero balks at the threshold of adventure.
After all, he or she is facing the greatest of all fears -- fear of
the unknown. At this point Luke refuses Obi Wan's call to adventure,
and returns to his aunt and uncle's farmhouse, only to find they
have been barbqued by the Emperor's stormtroopers. Suddenly Luke is
no longer reluctant, and is eager to undertake the adventure. He is
motivated.

How interesting it is that once Liz is with will again..she's clearly not happy about her decision..she goes back to what she thought she should want most and finds out its really not..she's now motivated.

4) THE HERO IS ENCOURAGED BY THE WISE OLD MAN OR WOMAN.

By this time many stories will have introduced a Merlin-like
character who is the hero's mentor. In JAWS it's the crusty Robert
Shaw character who knows all about sharks; in the mythology of the
Mary Tyler Moore Show, it's Lou Grant. The mentor gives advice and
sometimes magical weapons. This is Obi Wan Kenobi giving Luke
Skywalker his father's light sabre.

The mentor can only go so far with the hero. Eventually the hero
must face the unknown by himself. Sometimes the wise old man is
required to give the hero a swift kick in the pants to get the
adventure going.

Tia helps Liz along in finally accepting the very thing she refused earlier..she now is ready, she has the guidance

5) THE HERO PASSES THE FIRST THRESHOLD.

He fully enters the special world of his story for the first time.
This is the moment at which the story takes off and the adventure
gets going. The balloon goes up, the romance begins, the plane or
spaceship blasts off, the wagon train gets rolling. Dorothy sets
out on the Yellow Brick Road. The hero is now committed to his
journey... and there's no turning back.

Elizabeth has done this when movie 2 closes..she's fully accepted the quest which is Jack Sparrow. There is no turning back.

6) THE HERO ENCOUNTERS TESTS AND HELPERS.

The hero is forced to make allies and enemies in the special world,
and to pass certain tests and challenges that are part of his
training. In STAR WARS, the cantina is the setting for the forging
of an important alliance with Han Solo, and the start of an
important enmity with Jabba The Hut. In CASABLANCA, Rick's Cafe is
the setting for the "alliances and enmities" phase, and in many
westersn it's the saloon where these relationships are established.

The tests and challenges phase is represented in STAR WARS by the
scene of Obi Wan teaching Luke about the Force, as Luke is made to
learn by fighting blindfolded. The early laser battles with the
Imperial Fighters are another test which Luke passes successfully.

Elizabeth right at the start of AWE heck even the end of DMC is making new alliances and enemies, Barbossa, Sao Feng. all in order to save Jack etc

Elizabeth's refusal of the call was so climactic because she was stuck feeling like an ever growing fish out of for most of the movie. She was forced to be with the very thing she's afraid of which makes it worse and more intense..and things keep happening, the feelings keep growing the denial and anger gets worse and worse...she's thrust unprepared into the world of Jack sparrow..she's ready to be a pirate, she's ready to have sex...but her feelings for Jack are scaring the crap out of her.