Who is Allah? (Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?)

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Nah.

I didn't bother reading the article, since i gather the reason for the article is less for general info, and more for...other reasons.

I just asnwered the question of the general thread title.

Its more or less the same thing as the pagan origins of Christianity and Judaism - archeologically they all derive from one thing or another. (begining from gods, to traditions, signs, that kind of stuff)

Christians kept the cross, and other rituals from pagans, as did Jews, and Muslims did too. They kept the cresent moon and the star and their calendar is lunar. (and other things religion related too)

Of course proving Allah is pagan moon god, doesn't really cancel out the pagan origin of Judeo-Christian God.

But would you agree that Allah is the God of Islam and has adopted a new meaning beyond the moon-god?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Jehovah was once Yahweh, and it is very probably that Yahweh was once Ahura Mazda.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Actually no.

Allah WAS a Pagan Arab god of moon. He had 360 different names, Allah which he was most often refered to.

Christians and Jews in Arabia at the time did NOT refer to their gods as Allah.

It is the same thing as calling Judeo-Christian god Zeus or Thor.

Although strictly speaking, in terms of etymology, many words for God used today have their origins with the word Zeus and pagan words for deities.

And plenty of western Muslims use God in place of Allah as Allah is in relation to terminology simply another word for God (not "a" God, "the" God - the same mindset behind the Jewish and Christian faith.) And I am fairly sure in the past in certain middle eastern regions Jews did use Allah when speaking that language as that is that languages word for God. These days it is not really common due to the far more active division between the religions but still happens as that is the word and meaning when speaking that language. The concept of a single creator God - essentially the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

You are correct - once upon a time Allah was related to a moon-god. But no more. Morey's claim that Muslims are still worshipping a moon-god are grossly inaccurate. Starting with a name. If that claim wants to be made one can tie the word Amen from Egyptian religion, the word God from Greek gods and so on. An origin in a pagan religion, just like Christian words, but no more. Muslims do not worship a moon god, their God is derived from the Abrahamic tradition. It is merely linguistic considerations that see Allah used so frequently today, with is irrelevant as Allah no longer refers to the moon god in its usage.

Originally posted by Alliance
But would you agree that Allah is the God of Islam and has adopted a new meaning beyond the moon-god?

Is it just me or do you have this irresistable urge to defend Islam no matter how trivial the point?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Although strictly speaking, in terms of etymology, many words for God used today have their origins with the word Zeus and pagan words for deities.

As far as I know the word God comes from the old norse word Goth. Later on 'th' became 'd'. Odin used to be called Othin.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But Allah has become the name for the Monotheistic God that exists in all three myths, including Christianity and Judaism.

Jehovah was once Yahweh, and it is very probably that Yahweh was once Ahura Mazda.

I see it the way Zeus became Jupiter.

What Allah has ''become'' noone is debating, initially. What we are saying is that Allah was the God of Moon in Pagan Arabia.

In modern Islam, his symbol, way of worship, and the calender are STILL kept. The only thing rejected are his 2 daughters and a wife.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Although strictly speaking, in terms of etymology, many words for God used today have their origins with the word Zeus and pagan words for deities.

And plenty of western Muslims use God in place of Allah as Allah is in relation to terminology simply another word for God (not "a" God, "the" God - the same mindset behind the Jewish and Christian faith.) And I am fairly sure in the past in certain middle eastern regions Jews did use Allah when speaking that language as that is that languages word for God. These days it is not really common due to the far more active division between the religions but still happens as that is the word and meaning when speaking that language. The concept of a single creator God - essentially the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

You are correct - once upon a time Allah was related to a moon-god. But no more. Morey's claim that Muslims are still worshipping a moon-god are grossly inaccurate. Starting with a name. If that claim wants to be made one can tie the word Amen from Egyptian religion, the word God from Greek gods and so on. An origin in a pagan religion, just like Christian words, but no more. Muslims do not worship a moon god, their God is derived from the Abrahamic tradition. It is merely linguistic considerations that see Allah used so frequently today, with is irrelevant as Allah no longer refers to the moon god in its usage.

I am little confused as to the point you are making to me.

You said that Allah was related to Pagan Moon God, but no more, so I am interested, when did the turnover happen?

As i already stated, Muslims kept the symbols (crescent moon and the star), the way of worship, the calendar, which is lunar, the way of fast, which is during the day, and eating during the night - which was all how the Pagan arabs did it.

Muslims also adopted the stone of Kaaba, going around it 7 times, and bringing pilgrimage to Mecca. All practiced by Pagan Arabs - in the exactly the same manner.

Pre-islamic Arabs believed that Allah or the Moon-god, was the greatest of all gods and the supreme deity in a pantheon of deities.
Muhammad however, decided that Allah was not only the greatest god but the only god.

In every other religious book, beginning from Vedas, to Torah, to Bible, and to whichever other monolithic religions, a supreme deity is described in one way or another. Apart from Qur'an. And that is completely logical and understandable - Muhammad expected Arabs to know who Allah initially is, as he NEVER implied he was sent by a NEW God.

Muhammad was never accused of preaching a different god, anyway - he preached being sent by the only God Superior to all other gods - Allah, pretty much saying ''Look you are still worshiping the same supreme deity, the way you always have, I am just taking away his wife, two daughters and all other gods''.

Allah was claimed to be a supreme deity in Abrahaic sense when it came to converting Christians and Jews - who also largely inhabited Arabia (especially Jews - they made it their home for 2000 years, prior).

Muhammad said to them, what he said to the pagans - it is the same god you are worshiping, but in a different way - its a compromise of both sides in the end - and it is very logical too.

You are saying Muslims ''used to'' worship Moon God, but no more. So i am interested, when did the turn over, from worshiping one god, to the next?

And what exactly happened to the original Allah, when Muslims decided to worship this Allah, and what exactly is the differance?

Im not trying to be horrible (as you cannot hear tone of my voice), apologies if i am, I am only trying to see where your idea is coming from.

Originally posted by Alliance
But would you agree that Allah is the God of Islam and has adopted a new meaning beyond the moon-god?

It has adapted a new meaning. Its an Abrahamic God now.
It is a Greece-Rome God-swap type thing.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I am little confused as to the point you are making to me.

You said that Allah was related to Pagan Moon God, but no more, so I am interested, when did the turnover happen?

No, I was saying that the word Allah was once connected to an ancient celestial deity - essentially a moon God. The word changed though and the way in which Morey uses it has been declared incorrect by the historical community.

Some of his argument is "Allah was once the name of the moon god. So Allah today is not an Abrahamic divinity but rather a pagan one." Which of course is erroneous because words evolve. Just like God and Dios and so on have pasts in "Pagan" terminology so to does Allah. The argument JIA harps on about - "Everybody Allah is a moon god" - is based upon misinterpretation.

As i already stated, Muslims kept the symbols (crescent moon and the star), the way of worship, the calendar, which is lunar, the way of fast, which is during the day, and eating during the night - which was all how the Pagan arabs did it.

Muslims also adopted the stone of Kaaba, going around it 7 times, and bringing pilgrimage to Mecca. All practiced by Pagan Arabs - in the exactly the same manner.[/b][/quote]

Exactly, just as Christians kept many paganistic aspects.

Pre-islamic Arabs believed that Allah or the Moon-god, was the greatest of all gods and the supreme deity in a pantheon of deities.
Muhammad however, decided that Allah was not only the greatest god but the only god.

In every other religious book, beginning from Vedas, to Torah, to Bible, and to whichever other monolithic religions, a supreme deity is described in one way or another. Apart from Qur'an. And that is completely logical and understandable - Muhammad expected Arabs to know who Allah initially is, as he NEVER implied he was sent by a NEW God.

Muhammad was never accused of preaching a different god, anyway - he preached being sent by the only God Superior to all other gods - Allah, pretty much saying ''Look you are still worshiping the same supreme deity, the way you always have, I am just taking away his wife, two daughters and all other gods''.

Allah was claimed to be a supreme deity in Abrahaic sense when it came to converting Christians and Jews - who also largely inhabited Arabia (especially Jews - they made it their home for 2000 years, prior).

Muhammad said to them, what he said to the pagans - it is the same god you are worshiping, but in a different way - its a compromise of both sides in the end - and it is very logical too.

You are saying Muslims ''used to'' worship Moon God, but no more. So i am interested, when did the turn over, from worshiping one god, to the next?

And what exactly happened to the original Allah, when Muslims decided to worship this Allah, and what exactly is the differance?

Im not trying to be horrible (as you cannot hear tone of my voice), apologies if i am, I am only trying to see where your idea is coming from.

No, I know what you are saying, my argument was based against Morey/Chick Tract historical representation. Poor typing on my part - Muslims are the followers of Islam. I mean people of that region, of that language - that is users of Allah - once worshipped a moon god. The Muslims/Islamics do not. The use of a word which has a root with a pagan deity does not equate the Muslims still worshipping a luner deity as Morey has implied - no more then the pagan derived Christian symbols mean that Christians are worshipping Zeus.

The evolution of the word Allah is complex, and happened a long time prior to the rise of Islam - that is that it had a different meaning from "name of moon god" before Muhammad - in some cases almost seeming to mean prime or chief god (since the evidence of actual moon worship is very old.) Hence how in some parts it was used by Jews when operating in the Arabic lanaguage as it had meaning

Muhammad had some leway in his preaching of his view of God, and he didn't start of preaching adherence to the moon god. From the beginning of the Islamic rise there was a distinct difference between the Islamic religion and the paganistic religions that preceded it. To my knowledge it has been attributed to the whole "Allah was always here but we have moved away from him" mentality. The early Muslims were highly successful in assimilating - hence their meteoric rise. They managed to escape the whole accusation of "if this is the true God why is it new to us" by deft manipulation of what already existed. The Muslims - Islamic believers - never worshipped the ancient moon god, simply utilised words that had once had meaning to ancient pagan beliefs

It has adapted a new meaning. Its an Abrahamic God now.
It is a Greece-Rome God-swap type thing.

I don't think the Greek/Rome God swap is quite the same. Since they essentially adapted Greek mythology and divine figures into the Roman world merely changing there names and certain perceptions. Allah of Islam (and thus Abrahamic) is a completely different beast from Allah the ancient moon God.

The idea that Jews use the similar type of sound when speaking even in Arabic is actually erroneous, in regards to the God - ie Allah.

This has been addressed by Jewish rabbis many times over, since that idea has been thrown around infinitely by Islamic apologetics.
The Jewish high rabbis have already demonstrated this as an error.

It is the same thing as the infinite confusion that Islam means 'peace' in arabic.

It doen't. Islam means 'submission'.
Salaam means peace, which has derived from Hebrew Shalom (which Im sure everyone already knows, but never mind).

Second, you are saying again that Muslims never worshiped Allah, pagan moon god - so I am asking you, which god do they worship now, and what is the differance between the two?

Allah was a pagan moon God, and if we still had Arab Pagans, to them he still would be THAT.

The matter of the fact is, noone has presented anything to me which suggests that any kind of deity exists, and thus, from a strictly archaeological and historical point of view - Allah the God, derived from Pagan-Moon God.

Either way - Unless you can prove to me, that this Allah is different to Pre-Islamic Allah, the claim that Muslims worship anything which is different to this what Pagan-Arabs worshiped is baseless.

....

Why is it so easy to accuse Christians of having such strong pagan roots, but when it comes to Islam - no no no, it cannot possibly have any pagan roots?

From what I've seen other etymology derives Allah from Aleim from Elohim, which derives from El of Levantine polytheistic Semitic religion which is the precursor to monotheistic Judaism. The transition from El, the highest god, to El, the only only god, occurring in a similar manner to as described above in the pagan moon god etymology for Allah.

Apparently yod heh vav heh (YHVH) also is derivative of the polytheistic Semitism, with each Hebrew letter originally representative of a different deity, El, Asherah, Ba'al & Anat, respectively.

I heaven't heard that before. Interesting!

NB I'm not in any way authoritative on the subject though, I likewise just found it interesting and read a little bit about it. However it's probably pretty safe to say most monotheistic religions, and at least the Abrahamic religions, derive from polytheistic precursors and roots.

Originally posted by fini
[B]ALLAH IS GOD!!!!!! [/B]

Oh, now do that thing with your tongue...

hmmmm, which thing?
i can do lots of stuff with my tongue
😖hifty:

Originally posted by fini
hmmmm, which thing?
i can do lots of stuff with my tongue
😖hifty:

GROSSSSSS....oh..you mean oral sex...in that case 😏

I meant the funny thing that Stewie asked the terrorist to do and then he did it and everyone had a good laugh.

huh??

hehehe

Who is Allah? (Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth

Originally posted by finti
truth to whom? religious fanatics like you christian, jewish, muslims morons or............. tothe rest of us who really dont give a shit but are tired of your religious wannabees pestering us who really dont give a shit about your feeble religions.....................

a-/anti-religious philosphy is very common in the world and is part of the global discussion.

Originally posted by Alliance
a-/anti-religious philosphy is very common in the world and is part of the global discussion.

I believe it was more a reference to totalitarian religous ideology forced upon others. A little flexible thinking would allow you to see past the literalist interpretation which was likely poor grammar.

I would believe that if he contributed something to the forum. You should know that I rarely play semantics with people on this forum.