Jean Grey vs. Storm

Still, her execution comes AFTER her thought. She think something and then it happens. It's the same with storms powers.

I think people think that since there is no physical manifestations of TP and TK the same way with weather powers then there is some "lag".

Storm thinks of Lightining and lightining COMES, just as fast as if Jean thinks of break some vital part of Storm and it happens. In the both instances the action comes AFTER the thought no matter how you put it.

Thought and action at the SAME, EXACT time is illogical.

In any event, the action would come after the thought, ANY event.

If jean thinks "rip heart out" heart is out x amount of imearsurable time later(Execution comes after thought no matter how small the increment of time)

Storm thinks "mess up brain synapsis" or "Lightining" lightining comes at an unimaginable speed at an imeasurably small amount of time threreafter. SAME THING

Unless someone can give some clear peramenters for "thought + action in unison", then it's still Jean dies or double K.O.

Does Jean not have to COMPLETE a full thought for her will to manifest??? That's the only way for thought and action to be in unison if things happen AS she completes a full thought, not after. That still wouldn't make sense though, because, how would it manifest without a complete comand????

Originally posted by 2damnloud
[B]Still, her execution comes AFTER her thought. She think something and then it happens. It's the same with storms powers.

I think people think that since there is no physical manifestations of TP and TK the same way with weather powers then there is some "lag".

Storm thinks of Lightining and lightining COMES, just as fast as if Jean thinks of break some vital part of Storm and it happens. In the both instances the action comes AFTER the thought no matter how you put it.

Thought and action at the SAME, EXACT time is illogical.

In any event, the action would come after the thought, ANY event.

If jean thinks "rip heart out" heart is out x amount of imearsurable time later(Execution comes after thought no matter how small the increment of time)

The scans say otherwise...

They say "Thought and Execution as one" not before or after.

It's not illogical...because as one thinks the action occurs similtaneously. And again the scans say this.

Storm thinks "mess up brain synapsis" or "Lightining" lightining comes at an unimaginable speed at an imeasurably small amount of time threreafter. SAME THING

Nope Storm thinks similtaneosuly manipulation occurs....lightning is then formed. Lightning makes contact.

Though + Action.

Unless someone can give some clear peramenters for "thought + action in unison", then it's still Jean dies or double K.O.

The scans say Thought and Execution as one.

Does Jean not have to COMPLETE a full thought for her will to manifest??? That's the only way for thought and action to be in unison if things happen AS she completes a full thought, not after. That still wouldn't make sense though, because, how would it manifest without a complete comand????

What's your definition of a full thought?

This is what I'm saying: the evidence is there, direct source material, and people say that it's not true simply because they don't want it to be true. I don't get it. How do you think communication by TP works? That there's some lag time between when a TP thinks and when the thought is communicated to someone else? It is instant and simultaneous.

Neal's freaking out, and before he can acknowledge what's happening, his power is turned off. Weapons fall out of people's hands as they freeze in place because Jean THINKS "Stop." And they do when she thinks it. Note in the same panel as she thinks it, Wraith says, "Que?" He's surprised because everyone just STOPPED.

There's hardcore proof that thought=action for Jean. There's proof that Storm has to manipulate phenomena before action occurs.

Why do people keep saying that it's not true when it is? It's not my opinion or EC's or anyone elses--it's the opinion of the writers, of Marvel.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The idioms have established a lag for Storms powers.

TP/TK = Execution vs Thought and then Execution...if Storm is knocked out then they'll be no one left to psionically guide her lightning to it's target..meaning...the execution part is useles...

Thought + Execution as one for Telepathy:
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uxm384pg11cn8.jpg

Thought + Execution as one for Telekinesis:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/996/speedofthoughtmh6.jpg

As for that scan....it says it's a Telepathic Behaviour Modification and look at the time interval Emma takes to get up, speak, lift up Storms head and perform it....here Storm gets grounded to a Psi-Fry which lasts only moments. Different attacks.

And this is what we've been saying for like the last 40 pages. She's shown resistance to certain telepathic attacks i.e. Mind Control, Probing, Behaviour Modification. She has shown none to a Psi-Force Bolt and Psi-Fry...and having her subconscious reflexes shut down/manipulated.

http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xtremexmen22p17hgwellsod3.jpg

Storm was in pain from the mind Modification and still managed to strike emma with lightning before she could even complete it or before she could even erase a memory. This is exactly what i was saying, yes jean will get the first attack but it's not gonna be in time for it to fully assault since storm has already called down for an attack. You provided proof that it takes a short lag seeing that she manipulates weather patterns, but what has not proven is how long it takes to set action. Weather patterns works differently and at different speeds, how fast would it take storm to create the lightning bolt to strike at jean? we have no idea and therefor there is still open room for discussion there. But since we haven't i've stuck with 50/50 and will continue to until otherwise.

Originally posted by The Weather God
Have A Close look at this scan

Storm was in pain from the mind Modification and still managed to strike emma with lightning before she could even complete it or before she could even erase a memory. This is exactly what i was saying, yes jean will get the first attack but it's not gonna be in time for it to fully assault since storm has already called down for an attack. You provided proof that it takes a short lag seeing that she manipulates weather patterns, but what has not proven is how long it takes to set action. Weather patterns works differently and at different speeds, how fast would it take storm to create the lightning bolt to strike at jean? we have no idea and therefor there is still open room for discussion there.

What we've established is that Storm can resist...having her Behaviour Modified because this involves deeper probing.(i.e. Changing her feelings towards Emma)

Storm summoned a lightning bolt because she could resist that type of telepathy...however as shown before in plenty of scans Storm has shown no resistance to having her Subconscious reflexes shut down, or being mind fried or being Psi-Bolted.

-Legion...froze her with his telepathy
-Emma Mind Fry knocked her out of the sky..and Legions Mind fry knocked her out
-Emma Psi-Bolted her which knocked her out.

We've provided proof that there is a lag.
Storm had all that time from when she reached the ground...to when Emma started talking and then lifted up her head and starting modifying to create a bolt of lightning. So from that scan...it's established that Storm had quite the amount of time seeing how Emma managed to say a whole sentence...get up...walk towards Storm and lift Ororos head.

Since telepathy and her telekinesis work as thought + execution in unison the fight will be over in stage one. Storm still has to complete stage 2..it doesn't matter how long the lag is...point being there is a lag and as soon as stage 1 is completed this match will be over.

Stage 1: Both think

BTW If a mind fry...which is literally just frying the person brain...can knock Storm out of the sky...i.e. she lost all concentration. What chance does she have of resisting an assault like this when she hasn't shown any resistance to it at all.
Oh and here's the page before that occurs.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmenunlimited2725fs1.jpg

And then there's this:

http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uxm392pg07dp9.jpg
and this:
http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uxm392pg08pm7.jpg

And also thiis:

http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uxm45711sh5.jpg

No one is forgetting or assuming anything on this side, except the rules of combat in the arena. Yes, they know who they are up against, but what difference does that make? For Jean thought and action are one.

And the above scan shows several things: Storm is susceptible to TP (please also not that this scan is AFTER Emma had already attacked Storm's mind in previous panels); Storm's face registering her pain (a REACTION to Emma's THOUGHT); then lightning (a secondary REACTION to Emma's THOUGHT). Note Emma's initial attack was enough to take her out of the sky. She wanted her down, and she went down. So the scan shows a Storm that's already been grounded by Emma reacting to a SECOND attack. The difference between Emma in the scan and Jean in the arena is that Storm wouldn't have the opportunity to react to the second attack.

That scan was not a tp assault, she just showed her the destruction she was causing and storm powered down in order to not kill innocent lives. The women even mentions that it was luck that storm calmed down in time.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
What we've established is that Storm can resist...having her Behaviour Modified because this involves deeper probing.(i.e. Changing her feelings towards Emma)

Storm summoned a lightning bolt because she could resist that type of telepathy...however as shown before in plenty of scans Storm has shown no resistance to having her Subconscious reflexes shut down, or being mind fried or being Psi-Bolted.

-Legion...froze her with his telepathy
-Emma Mind Fry knocked her out of the sky..and Legions Mind fry knocked her out
-Emma Psi-Bolted her which knocked her out.

We've provided proof that there is a lag.
Storm had all that time from when she reached the ground...to when Emma started talking and then lifted up her head and starting modifying to create a bolt of lightning. So from that scan...it's established that Storm had quite the amount of time seeing how Emma managed to say a whole sentence...get up...walk towards Storm and lift Ororos head.

Since telepathy and her telekinesis work as thought + execution in unison the fight will be over in stage one. Storm still has to complete stage 2..it doesn't matter how long the lag is...point being there is a lag and as soon as stage 1 is completed this match will be over.

Stage 1: Both think

BTW If a mind fry...which is literally just frying the person brain...can knock Storm out of the sky...i.e. she lost all concentration. What chance does she have of resisting an assault like this when she hasn't shown any resistance to it at all.

Originally posted by The Weather God

Why does it seem like emma haves to be close to storm when she does an attack? The mind fry i see that storm was trying to resist it when she was moving her head away from emma, the scan also doesn't prove that storm and emma did an attack at the same time and therefor we have no idea if storm could have called down a lightningbolt in time to while her mind was being fried seeing that it diden't last long. why diden't emma continue the tp assault if it was working and they were both were bloodlusted?

Emma has taken out Storm before from a distance aswell before...so has Legion so has Onslaught so has every other telepath in those 15 scans I posted before.

Storm was in pain...due to her mind being fried hence the reason why her head is jerked and she falls out of the sky. No resistance.

What about this scan.
It occurs before the one where she hits Emma with lightning:
http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xtremexmen22p18hgwellsow9.jpg

Here's some food for thought look what Xavier says
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theuncannyxmenn375p31xg0.jpg

As for that last bit...she didn't because Claremont didn't want her to. He wanted Emma to play with her food. BTW Both weren't bloodlusted.

ahh but there lies the tricky part...emma zapped her then switched to diamond form to survivie the fall, then when the landed by the time she could pick up storm's head ,and say what' she's gonna do Zapp!!, lightning came from outta the sky and zapped the shit outta her. so the one second it took for them to reach from air to ground and a lightning bolt was already in the works, that means that tho she was stunned she still had enuff concentration to call it down..lag time my ass!!

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Emma has taken out Storm before from a distance aswell before...so has Legion so has Onslaught so has every other telepath in those 15 scans I posted before.

Storm was in pain...due to her mind being fried hence the reason why her head is jerked and she falls out of the sky. No resistance.

What about this scan.
It occurs before the one where she hits Emma with lightning:
http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xtremexmen22p18hgwellsow9.jpg

Here's some food for thought look what Xavier says
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theuncannyxmenn375p31xg0.jpg

As for that last bit...she didn't because Claremont didn't want her to. He wanted Emma to play with her food.

Ah but look at what xavier say's here

Was this before or after emma drops her with tp?

Originally posted by manjaro
ahh but there lies the tricky part...emma zapped her then switched to diamond form to survivie the fall, then when the landed by the time she could pick up storm's head ,and say what' she's gonna do Zapp!!, lightning came from outta the sky and zapped the shit outta her. so the one second it took for them to reach from air to ground and a lightning bolt was already in the works, that means that tho she was stunned she still had enuff concentration to call it down..lag time my ass!!

She spoke...spoke some more...walked towards Storm and picked up her head...you're telling me that's not a long time? That's pretty much enough time to formulate 50 Thoughts seeing how many gestures Emma made.

She didn't do that immediately after they hit the ground...this page came before it.
http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xtremexmen22p18hgwellsow9.jpg

Plus Emma getting up + Talking + Walking + Picking Storms head up is way more then 1 second.

BTW Idioms have already established the lag.

Originally posted by The Weather God
Ah but look at what xavier say's here

Was this before or after emma drops her with tp?

Isn't that because she' already has a bunch of lightning bolts going off in the background?

So it's interferring with Xaviers probing.

That's after Emma drops her with TP but before Storm zaps Emma with lightning.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Isn't that because she' already has a bunch of lightning bolts going off in the background?

So it's interferring with Xaviers probing.

That's after Emma drops her with TP but before Storm zaps Emma with lightning.

This is the same lightning field she created on that women in this scan, if this lightning field can scramble tp then once storm creates the lightning field it should stop whatever tp assault jean is inflicting on her am i correct?

Originally posted by The Weather God

This is the same lightning field she created on that women in this scan, if this lightning field can scramble tp then once storm creates the lightning field it should stop whatever tp assault jean is inflicting on her am i correct?

On which women? Huh? Rachel...Rachel didn't even appear in that issue of X-treme?

BTW It wouldn't scramble it that much seeing how Rachel did manage to use her TP through that field. BTW Wouldn't that mean Storms field would be more concentrated the closer you get?
Plus you're also forgetting that she wanted to take Storm alive so she could use her powers.

And if it's the same lightning field...then how was Xavier able to still communicate with Storm? From such a far distance.

And again she already has her lightning field going. She won't get the chance to put it up in this fight.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
On which women? Huh? Rachel...Rachel didn't even appear in that issue of X-treme?

BTW It wouldn't scramble it that much seeing how Rachel did manage to use her TP through that field. BTW Wouldn't that mean Storms field would be more concentrated the closer you get?
Plus you're also forgetting that she wanted to take Storm alive so she could use her powers.

And if it's the same lightning field...then how was Xavier able to still communicate with Storm? From such a far distance.

And again she already has her lightning field going. She won't get the chance to put it up in this fight.

Yeah it was rachel because they said "r-chel can you handle it."

She had a very hard time getting though it especially seeing that she was inside the lightning field once she was able to hardly get through to storm and get her to calm down. When she was on the outside of it tho she said the lightning field scrambled her powers and she was unable to get through to storm.

Originally posted by The Weather God
Yeah it was rachel because they said "r-chel can you handle it."

She had a very hard time getting though it especially seeing that she was inside the lightning field once she was able to hardly get through to storm and get her to calm down. When she was on the outside of it tho she said the lightning field scrambled her powers and she was unable to get through to storm.

Yeah 😕 Except I'm trying to find the link between my post(The X-treme) one and your post.
You addressed that previous post to CF...not me..how am I suppose to know. I had no idea which "women" you were referring to.

She had a hard time getting through....but you're still forgetting that she got through...she got closer(And naturally the field would be more concentrated the closer she got) and she managed to turn Storm off.

There was no inside/outside of the field....the field was everywhere.
BTW You're still forgetting that she wasn't trying to kill Storm they needed to calm her down not kill her.

Plus is this even relevant when you consider the time it would take for Storm to get her lightning field up?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Yeah 😕 Except I'm trying to find the link between my post(The X-treme) one and your post.
You addressed that previous post to CF...not me..how am I suppose to know. I had no idea which "women" you were referring to.

She had a hard time getting through....but you're still forgetting that she got through...she got closer(And naturally the field would be more concentrated the closer she got) and she managed to turn Storm off.

There was no inside/outside of the field....the field was everywhere.
BTW You're still forgetting that she wasn't trying to kill Storm they needed to calm her down not kill her.

Plus is this even relevant when you consider the time it would take for Storm to get her lightning field up?

I wasen't saying it in a smart way if that's what your saying, i wasen't sure who the women was in that lightning field scan until you mentioned it was rachel.

I just reread it and it was caused by the bad weather storm had created. But rachel made it clear that the lightning was the cause for her power scramble, and that she was unable to get in contact with storm at all. They had to get on the inside where storm was in order to get away from the psy scramble so that they could communicate with her and calm her down. If they were on the outside there woulden't be an inside to stop the psy scramble as the professor scan was on the inside as well. They have to be able to link with storm in order to do any sort of psy assault, her lightning can actually scramble that very link.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Plus is this even relevant when you consider the time it would take for Storm to get her lightning field up?

It's not a lightning field she haves to create, the lightning creates the field for her as she makes them strike.

Originally posted by The Weather God
I wasen't saying it in a smart way if that's what your saying, i wasen't sure who the women was in that lightning field scan until you mentioned it was rachel.

I just reread it and it was caused by the bad weather storm had created. But rachel made it clear that the lightning was the cause for her power scramble, and that she was unable to get in contact with storm at all. They had to get on the inside where storm was in order to get away from the psy scramble so that they could communicate with her and calm her down. If they were on the outside there woulden't be an inside to stop the psy scramble as the professor scan was on the inside as well. They have to be able to link with storm in order to do any sort of psy assault, her lightning can actually scramble that very link.

It's a lightning field...so yes it caused some interference. There was no outside or inside. IIRC Wasn't Xavier projecting all the way from Genosha ...so how would you explain that? The field was more concentrated as they got nearer.

And Xavier clearly linked with Storm there...so did Rachel.

BTW Again does this even make a difference when you consider the time it would take to put up a lightning field.

It's not a lightning field she haves to create, the lightning creates the field for her as she makes them strike.

She formed a lightning field because she created a lightning storm. It' s not just one lightning bolt.

And even if it was it still has a lag.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It's a lightning field...so yes it caused some interference. There was no outside or inside. IIRC Wasn't Xavier projecting all the way from Genosha ...so how would you explain that? The field was more concentrated as they got nearer.

And Xavier clearly linked with Storm there...so did Rachel.

BTW Again does this even make a difference when you consider the time it would take to put up a lightning field.

The professor is a much more powerful telepath and his link was not clear as you can see it even caused him pain to communicate with storm. He also mentions that it was storm's lightning that scrambled the link between the two not the whole bad weather, and rachel was unsuccessful at all in linking with storm until she got in the same room with her.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
She formed a lightning field because she created a lightning storm. It' s not just one lightning bolt.

And even if it was it still has a lag.

Did i say it was one lightning bolt or does it have to be one lightning bolt when she uses it? No storm should be able to strike multiple lightning bolts at a time. There is a very short lag and i'm not disputing that now am i? But if my strategy plays out with jean trying a tp assault first then storm should be able to have multiple lightning bolts strike(rather she's guiding them or not) to the ground to scramble the link and cause interference.